biggsy216 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have a Chausson Allegro 97 of 2008 vintage with a Fiat 160 engine and a CBE electrical system. I recently had occasion to remove the leisure battery to charge it up. All electrical systems were working at that point. On reconnecting the battery, all 12v habitation systems - lights, heating, water pump - were out of action. They remained out of action with the engine running. On plugging into a 230v source, everything worked again. On checking with a multimeter, the following was found: The battery was at 12.5v There was no voltage across the B1+ and B1- terminals on the distribution board All fuses were checked and none were faulty On mains power, there seemed to be no charge going to the leisure battery Ditto when the engine was running This system has two Boite Relais Securite relays between the battery and the rest of the distribution system. All fuses are ok, and a 12.5v current is coming from the battery. Any ideas, Hercules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Hercules is on holiday in the Algarve, I would ask my friend Sherlock, but he knows nothing about Motorhomes. My name is Watson, will I do? The symptoms suggest a main fuse has failed somewhere, most likely near the battery and between the Battery charger and the wiring to the battery. Possible not part of the CBE bank of fuses. The fact that power is restored when on EHU is that the charger (upstream of the failed fuse) is now supplying power. I would guess the battery is not getting charge because it can't get through the blown fuse to reach the battery. Check the wiring for a big fuse, starting at the battery and working back to the CBE units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 And a part time Watson here... Have you re-connected the battery the correct way round and another possibility, is it recharged with the correct polarity? Reason I ask, many, many years ago I was called to a car that would not start in a public car park. A.quick investigation and found the main battery fuse had blown. A trip to the main dealer and new fuse fitted and as soon as the battery was re-connected the new fuse blew! Testing with a multi meter revealed the battery was reverse polarity! What the &%$£! On questioning the owner he said the battery went flat when he left the lights on so he took the battery home and recharged it and when he refitted it the fuse blew. Obviously the battery was so flat it allowed a reverse charge! It was certainly a new one for me. So start with the basics, test battery voltage across terminals, then voltage between battery positive and a good ground and keep working your way up the system, connection by connection including the fuses. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Mysterious !!! I have a CBE system but without the boite relay. I assume you reconnected the leisure battery terminals the correct way around ? The B1+ terminal on rhe 12v distribution board is the starter battery. The B2+ terminal is the leisure battery. I would initially suspect the boite relay but am unaware of it's function, so just guessing. Other contributors on this forum are more au fait with the boite relay, namely Derek Uzzell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Thanks for the interest so far. You are right, Robby, about B1 and B2. It was the B2 terminals showing no current, not the B1as I wrote. If the polarity had been reversed, would the multimeter show a negative charge if connected red to +ve black to -be? It didn’t. And in any case the battery was at an indicated 11.5v when I took it off, so not entirely flat. I think on my system the boite relais boxes take the place of the usual 50amp fuse near the battery, but I stand to be corrected. Please keep ideas coming. They’re much appreciated. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 EDIT (It seems that some of what follows has already been eliminated, but as I am about to retire for the night, I do not propose to carve out huge chunks.) I also am not Hercule, but I have owned and engineered around a CBE DS520 system for over eleven years. Please eliminate Keith's suggestion of reversed battery polarity, before proceeding further. In this application reversed polarity of B2 the habitation battery, could result in your symptoms. If you have inadvertantly reversed charged B2, reconnected and then started the engine---- disaster. The split charge relay included in the CBE distribution board would close when the engine was started. This would be equivalent to short circuiting a 24V battery. The "boite de securite" which I do not have contain a relay with external suppression diode, a fuse for the relay coil and a midi (bolt in) fuse for the main battery connections. If the batteries where shorted as described I would expect one or possibly both 50A midi fuses to have blown. It is my understanding that the relay in the "boite de sucurite" facilitates a master on/off function, which is not provided in the CBE distribution board. To be pessimistic, if B2 has been reverse charged, then there is the possibility that the CBE system has been damaged, but the fact that electrics come alive via the charger gives some hope. May I ask the question as to why it was necessary to remove the battery for charging, when a mains supply is available to operate the charger? Could it be that there was a pre existing charging problem? In a previous thread the originator reported that the fridge was draining B2. This was eventually traced to poor soldering on the back of the B1 "boite de secuite" causing such a high resistance that the total current flow could not supply the fridge, let alone charge B2. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Thanks for the reply Alan. I was hoping you might take an interest. The battery was taken out rather than charged on mains because a) the van is stored 12 miles from home with no mains facilities and b) we had previously been on a trip where the battery (a fairly new Banner item) seemed to be discharging excessively when off grid I.e. it regularly hit 11.5v when the heating was in use. I therefore wanted to make sure that the battery was fully recharged independent of the CBE charger Does all of this suggest a problem with the CBE charger, I wonder? Am pretty certain the battery was not subject to reverse charging, and there have been no bangs, flashes or smells of smoke anywhere. I assumed the distribution board was faulty, but then everything works on mains, which I assume goes through the charger transformer before going through the 12v distribution board? The fuses on the boites relais are fine, and I hear a click when I press the on/off button on the control panel, which appears to work fine. I assume the boites relais work as alternatives to the normal 50amp fuse on many systems? There is current from the battery reaching the appropriate terminals at the relays, but I’m not sure how to test them after that. My knowledge of electrics can probably be called rudimentary+ :) Thanks for the interest. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Mike. Having considered the available facts, I must point you back to the second post in this thread, which was made by Allan of aandncaravan (services). Allan has a wealth knowledge gained as a repairer of caravan and motorhome electrical systems. I assume that the CBE distribution board is a DS300 with three M6 terminal studs, B1 +ve, B2 +ve, and B1 -ve. All your facts point to an open circuit somewhere along the wiring starting at the habitation battery +ve terminal, to the B2 +ve. Do not forget the return path, from the habitation battery -ve terminal to a common -ve point which could be the CBE B1 -ve terminal. The Midi fuse in the "boite relais" could indeed serve as a main battery, but it is good practice to have the main battery fuses as close to the batteries as possible, so there could be others. (The cable between the battery and fuse is unprotected. If this were to short to chassis, you could have a serious fire.) If you have the facility to measure habitation (B2) battery current on the CBE control panel, I deduce that there will be a shunt connected to the habitation battery -ve terminal. Are the main connections on any such shunt secure? I see no reason to suspect the mains charger at the present time. It is at least managing to power your system. You have stated that you have a Banner battery, of which I have two in my PVC. Banner batteries have aquired a poor reputation on this forum, but for me the jury is still out. They do need topping up. I top up mine, at least at the start of every season, You should also consider the possibility of a high resistance connection. Modern multimeters take a very small current and can give misleading voltage readings when measuring through a high resistance. A simple 12V test lamp can be revealing in this respect. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 biggsy216 - 2018-01-21 6:55 PM............The battery was at 12.5v If I understand correctly, this reading was taken after the battery was re-installed, following re-charging away from the van? If so, I can only say that 12.5V is not a fully re-charged battery. You should be seeing 12.7V or better. You also speak of the battery being allowed to fall to 11.5V, which is well into the injury zone. Basically, at that voltage, the battery is flat, and is not quickly re-charged, probably damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 As a person with an HNC in electronic and electrical engineering (albeit not used for 40 years) what is this boite relay to which you all refer? Not a term I'm familiar with and google has no results either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Well, I think boite means box, relaismeans relay and securite means safet. So I guess it means safety relay box. On my system they seem to have used these relays instead of simple 50amp fuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 ColinM50 - 2018-01-22 4:38 PM As a person with an HNC in electronic and electrical engineering (albeit not used for 40 years) what is this boite relay to which you all refer? Not a term I'm familiar with and google has no results either? Colin, From studying information posted by Dr Dave on a previous thread, it is as I tried to describe earlier in this thread a box. The box contains a relay with diode across the coil, 50A midi fuse, blade fuse for relay coil, and necessary terminals. The main current terninals appear to be M6, suggesting use in main battery connections. It is a CBE item. I think that it may be used to disable the 12V electrics when the vehicle is in motion to comply with EMC regs? Not havng first hand experience, the method of application is a bit of a mystery to me. If you insert in both battery connections and it does disable the 12V electrics, then how are the habitation battery and fridge supplied? Also if it isolates both batteries where does the power to operate the relays come from? I can only conclude that the must be at least one other battery connection, if they are used in this manner Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Securite is more likely to mean safety. But, relays are switching devices, whereas fuses are to protect the wiring from overload. For a relay to act as a fuse, it would need to behave in the same way as a miniature circuit breaker, which is a kind of relay that switches off the current when an excess is detected. I somehow doubt that this is quite what these relays are for. As I've implied above, I suspect that your battery is not charging properly and, since you last appear to have charged it away from the van (in which it seems it may not have been getting fully charged), my suspicion is that the battery has been damaged by being run flat, possibly exacerbated by not being immediately re-charged. However, I don't think any of the above explains the fault you are seeing. If you look closely at the habitation battery (you haven't said where it is housed), you should find a fuse located on, or very near to, the + terminal of the battery. It should be rated in the region of 50A, and will be larger than the usual automotive fuses used elsewhere. It is this fuse I think you need to locate. It would be surprising if it isn't there, since its function is to isolate the whole 12V system from the battery in the event of a current surge (possibly due to a short circuit), that could otherwise cause the wiring between the battery and the main 12V fuse board to overheat and possibly catch fire. It is the primary protection device, and has to be located very close to the battery to do its job. The fuse carrier may be incorporated into the + terminal clamp. I wonder if it might have blown at the time you re-connected the battery after charging it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Biggsy216, If you look at our webpage, "Wiring your Camper", which recommends CBE equipment, you will find at the bottom of the webpage a schematic diagram of a DS300 which shows big 50amp fuses 'located' close to both batteries, for both B1 (Starter) battery and B2 (habitation) battery. These fuses might be separate or inside the Boite Relais Securite boxes as flat Red fuses like the photo on the same webpage as the schematic. Like we said in our first response above you might find this B2 fuse, or whatever the device is, has blown? Don't assume that your vehicle will be wired exactly like this, they are generally issued as a guide for the Motorhome builder which may or may not follow that guidance. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Thanks for all of the replies. Brian, the battery today is showing 12.67v on a multimeter in situ. It is less than 6 months old so should be ok unless there’s a manufacturing fault. I have been running a Floe pump from it on occasion since it was charged, so it won’t be quite at full bung. Alan, have been checking wiring today and have traced from the battery to the distribution board. There is no 50amp fuse except for the boite relay ones, as far as I can see. I assume a 50amp fuseholder would be a fairly large thing and should be obvious? Looks like I may have to open the wallet on this one. Any recommendations for a good sparky in the Hull/ East Yorkshire area? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Carried out some more research and it seems, bear in mind we are not CBE experts, that the Boite securite relais are used in two different ways. The one that contains the fuse for the Starter battery, seems to have a D+ trigger via the Yellow cable to trigger the relay to connect to the Habitation battery for Alternator charging. The second unit that contains the habitation 50a fuse also seems to have a trigger of some sort (possibly the DS300 'power on/off' control?) that triggers via the Yellow wire to operate the relay. Thus bringing the habitation battery into the circuit. It appears as though the Habitation battery is completely isolated under some conditions. So if you have power at the Habitation battery side of the Boite securite relais unit but none on the big output terminal and the big 50 amp fuse has power both sides, then try and apply 12v to the relay coil +, and see if that triggers the relay. If it does, the Ds 300 is not sending the signal for some reason. If the relay doesn't trigger with your manually applied 12v, then maybe the relay has failed. If you suspect Relay failure, then maybe swap the two Boite securite relais units around. If you look on the webpage noted above you will see that although they have different coloured wires going to each unit, the units themselves seem to be the same. Either way, if you fit a temporary 50amp Maxi fuse across the terminals of the habitation/B2 Boite securite relais then everything should work until you want to administer a permanent fix? However note that you may want to remove the 50a maxi fuse while in long term storage to ensure zero habitation battery drain?. Fitting this temporary maxi fuse will also help with diagnosis and confirm the issue is related to the Boite securite relais. It looks like the fridge operation is via a relay inside the DS300. AlanB, does that make sense to you? Better picture of the below Boite securite relais can be found on the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Thanks for the very interesting approach Allen. Am I correct in thinking that you recommend putting a wire containing a 50amp fuse across the two big terminals on the boite relay, thus cutting it out of the circuit, in effect? I can have a go at that and see what happens. Thanks very much. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 biggsy216 - 2018-01-23 10:26 AM Thanks for the very interesting approach Allen. Am I correct in thinking that you recommend putting a wire containing a 50amp fuse across the two big terminals on the boite relay, thus cutting it out of the circuit, in effect? I can have a go at that and see what happens. Thanks very much. Mike Yes, exactly the suggestion. The CBE Boite securitie Relais wiring diagrams on our "Wiring your Camper" webpage show that the Red flat 50amp fuse protects the circuit, but only when the relay closes. A fuse across those terminals just bypasses the relay, but otherwise supplies the same safety and is how most other manufacturers wire things. Maybe start with a low current fuse on the B2 CBE Boite securitie Relais to start with, just in case there is some fault in the circuit. Most of these issues start with the battery being removed for charging and being connected back up incorrectly because the wiring colours are often the opposite of the UK. Like using Blue for positive and Brown for negative so suggest you label up the habitation battery cabling to ensure there is no issue for future owners? Masking tape with a big Red Cross on the positive terminal and a big Black Minus on the other works well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Alanb - 2018-01-22 8:40 PM Not havng first hand experience, the method of application is a bit of a mystery to me. If you insert in both battery connections and it does disable the 12V electrics, then how are the habitation battery and fridge supplied? Also if it isolates both batteries where does the power to operate the relays come from? I can only conclude that the must be at least one other battery connection, if they are used in this manner Alan. With thanks to Allan may I start by answering my own final question above, obviously something that I had either forgotten or not previously absorbed. The supply for the boite de securite relay is in fact tapped from the battery side of itself. Allan, Yes it is making some sense, further I am now inclined to question my suggestion that the boit de securite are used for EMC compliance. However the actual purpose is a bit of a side issue. What matters is how they impinge on Mike's problem. As regards the fridge relay, yes it is situated on the CBE distribution board, but for power to reach the fridge the boite de securite relay must be operated by D+ as you suggest, or by a master switch. Other functions such as mains charging of the starter battery would also be inhibited if the relay is not operated. Mike, Please do not give up now. Others have triumphed in similar situations, and learned in the process. In recent posts there seem to be at least three ardent helpers singing from the same hymn sheet. Allan is suggesting bridging the bridging the boite de securite with a suitable fuse. please do proceed with that test, but it fails to identify the fault you may like to follow the procedure below.. In last post you mentioned that you had been tracing the wiring from the habitation battery, however you did not state specifically that you hade checked voltages as you progressed. Can you equip yourself with an extension lead for the negative socket of your test meter. This could be any type of single core flex or even thin mains cable. Bundle up one stripped end and secure it in the negative socket of your meter, Tape the flex to the meter so that meter so that no strain is placed on the connection. Even cellotape would do. Connect the free end of the lead to vehicle chassis. Starter battery negative would be fine. By testing to the starter battery negative or chassis you will be including the habitation battery negative connection. Start by repeating you former check at the habitation battery (B2) positive pole, and work along the route to the disribution board B2 +ve terminal. This way you should detect a loss of volts at some point. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Thanks both. Will try these things over the next couple of days and report back. Feelings of excitement are beginning to develop ....:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Eureka! I isolated the Boite Relais Securite as suggested by Allen, and everything lit up. Thanks so much for the advice, especially the King of Conwy. Just need to replace it and should be good to go. Thanks once again to everyone who took an interest. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I am very pleased for you. It will be good for your self esteem. Before you dash out and purchase a new unit, I did mention in an earlier post in this thread that one of our fellow contributors had a similar problem. He found that the fault was due to poor quality soldering at the back of Boite Relais Securite, and repaired the item himself. If removing the unit do please ensure that it is fully isolated by removing battery negatives and switcing OFF the mains charger. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I have done some research. The soldering problem was posted by Mick Bajcar. A photograph showing signs of over heating where the relay is soldered onto the PCB was included. This was the thread "Chausson Welcome 76, fridge running off battery, Help" dated 20/08/17. Intriguing that it also relates to a Chausson, perhaps a faulty batch of units? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanf1 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Hi All, I'm new to the forum but have been reading for a while. What a great resource and a great place to get advice, which leads me to my first post :-) I also have a Chausson (Welcome 28G 2008) which has the Boite relais securite fitted and CBE panel and fuse board - I'm not sure on the charger (as the MH is in storage) but I'm suspecting it might also be CBE, but not sure on type. The question I have is around installing a new pair of leisure batteries. I've been doing some reading and found the site run by AANDNCARAVAN which has some invaluable information on it. From that site I've gleaned that the batteries I want to get are the Varta powergrid (LFD90), but having also read some of the other pages it seems I need to consider the alternator charging, also the control board as this potentially houses the split charge relay and also the 230v charger. The current battery setup for the van (transit) is the Ford fitted starter and aux battery under the drivers seat and also the leisure battery under the passenger seat. There is no issue with the set up currently but I'm looking to replace the 1 leisure battery with 2x varta at 90AH. I think the current battery is 80 or 85AH and appears to be working fine. I've also got a 150w solar panel through a votronic charge controller. Will my kit handle an extra leisure battery or will I run into problems such as with the Boite relais securite dry joints or damaging the split charge in the control board, and will the alternator and the 230v charger be able to cope? It's a lot of questions for a first post and I'm aware that not all the information is present so probably not ideal in terms of getting all the answers although i hope to get a full system run down when I next get over to the van. On a side note - are the boite relais securite a weak link and can they be replaced with something more robust/heavty duty? Many thanks for taking the time to read. AlanF (seams there a quite a few Alans on this thread already) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggsy216 Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 Good morning AlanF,. I can respond to some of your questions but not all. Your charger is likely to be a CBE 510 or 516. The difference is in the output (10amps for the 510, 16 amps for the 516). You can get a manual at http://www.cbe.it/en/serie-cb500/ which gives some data. Allen of AandACaravans recommends that it is ok to use two batteries so long as they don’t exceed twice the output of the charger, if I understand it aright. What I don’t know is which of the numbers in the manual this relates to.. I’m sure someone will help with this. As far as the Boite Relais Securite is concerned, I suggest you don’t worry about it. My problem turned out not to be a faulty Relais after all, so I cannot criticise the design. Hope this helps somewhat. Good luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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