Refillable gas bottles

[Keff]

Hi

We have at present the gaslow refillable gas bottles fitted we are changing

Vans and are looking at the Safefill system.

 

Two questions

 

1, Has anyone got or used this type of refillable bottle.

 

2, Does anyone one know what the law is on refilling these at a petrol

stations here and in Europe.

 

I like the idea of not having to take the van off site to refill the gas bottles.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

 

Keff

[Derek Uzzell]

There have been quite a few forum discussions about/mentions of the “Safefill” gas bottle

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=Safefill&author=&days=&Submit=Search

 

As far as I’m aware there are no specific laws preventing filling ‘portable’ gas bottles at a service-station selling autogas, but the service-station operators/attendants may well forbid this practice.

 

My advice would be to avoid the Safefill bottle if you are concerned about refilling outside the UK. There was a list available on the Safefill website of UK outlets prepared to accept refilling, but that is currently not there.

[vindiboy]

Well with a little bit of foresight and planning it is not necessary to take the van off site to fill your system ,just refill them as you buy Diesel ,you do not have to wait till the bottles are completely empty, I would avoid free standing bottles  for refilling like the plague, you are just complicating your days.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keff’s motorhome currently has a Gaslow-based refillable gas system, so he should be accustomed to the refilling procedure.

 

In 2000 I bought a 5kg composite gas-bottle from the MTH Autogas firm. This bottle (like the vast majority of composite containers) is normally aimed at the ‘exchange bottle’ market as an alternative to traditional metal bottles of the type Calor use. Unlike the Safefill product my MTHA bottle has no 80% cut-off valve and no non-return valve, which means that refilling it needs extra care. (It’s a bit like owning a pit bull terrier - most of the time patting it is OK but there’s always the risk that you’ll lose your hand!) I’ve had exciting experiences with the MTHA bottle that I would not have had with a Safefill or a Gaslow bottle, but I've managed to refill it abroad without being refused, primarily because I've prepared for refilling well in advance, done it rapidly and been careful not to make it obvious what I’m up to.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Safefill-gas-cylinder-remote-filler/45939/

 

Richard Cecil (who owned MTH Autogas) imagined that caravanners/morhomers staying at campsites could take these lightweight bottles to a service-station selling autogas for refilling. In fact he had some prototype backpacks produced into which the smaller bottles (like mine) could fit - the idea being that you visited the service station on your bicycle carrying the empty bottle on your back, refilled it and then cycled back to the campsite. The snag, though, was that operators of UK autogas outlets were unwilling to go along with that idea.

 

As will be apparent from photos on the Safefill website

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/our-cylinders.html

 

removing the bottle from a caravan, motorhome or boat and then refilling it at an autogas pump is envisaged as normal operating procedure. This is OK if all autogas-selling operators would cooperate, but that’s far from the case.

 

This map shows places said to accept Safefill bottle-refilling and the network’s limited coverage is obvious.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1h3D-G9MRjt-hpNAoEPiJnAlBP7w&msa=0&ll=51.56610856349266%2C-1.3273866367187566&z=5

 

 

 

 

[Tracker]

Personally unless there is a very good reason not to I would rather keep the known Gaslows and simply drive to refill them.

No messing about releasing and re-attaching bottles, no issues at most filling stations, no awkward heavy bottles to lug about.

Sorry but I don't understand why you would wish to change and complicate a proven and paid for system?

[Derek Uzzell]

Keff has said why he is interested in the Safefill container:

 

"I like the idea of not having to take the van off site to refill the gas bottles.”

 

Imagine you’ve taken your motorhome towing a car (on a trailer) to a campsite in Spain where (so I’ve been told) it can be cheaper to use gas to run heaters/boilers/ovens than use the campsite’s metered 230V electricity. You’ve carefully parked the motorhome, deployed its awning and safari room, put up the flags and windbreaks, erected the IKEA dog kennel, carefully arranged your potted plants and artificial grass, offloaded the car and don’t really want to move the motorhome until you head back to the UK in 3 months time.

 

If you have a ‘fixed’ Gaslow-type system you’ll need to move the motorhome to refill the gas system, or resort to connecting the system to a Spanish ‘exchange’ gas-bottle. But if you have a removable gas container like the Safefill bottle, you can put it in the boot of the car, drive the car to the nearest autogas-selling outlet and refill the Safefill bottle at the autogas pump (if they’ll let you do this).

 

Presumably Keff’s practical experience with a Gaslow system has indicated that it could be convenient for him to be able to refill gas bottles without taking his motorhome to the pump. I can’t see any difficulty understanding that attraction and I used to do it with my MTH composite bottle, transporting the bottle in my car’s boot to a local self-service autogas outlet. This was convenient and practicable because (like Safefill containers) the MTH bottle was light and easily handled. But doing the same with an 11kg metal Gaslow bottle would be quite another matter.

 

On-line comments suggest that Safefill bottles are popular with caravanners and it seems likely that they just take the Safefill bottles to the pump rather than take the caravan to the pump with the bottles renaining in the caravan’s gas-locker. And, if the Safefill bottle is used with a boat, the bottle will have to be removed from irs locker and taken to an autogas pump for refilling.

 

 

 

And - regarding bottle-refilling ‘legality’ in the UK - this may be of interest.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/filling_lpg_gas_bottles_on_forec

[Tracker]

I must have missed the bit where Keff said that he towed a car?

 

Or maybe he has a gas bottle trailer that he tows with his bike?

 

Wouldn't a locally supplied exchange gas bottle be easier when the gaslows run out?

 

Whatever, and I respect Keff's choice to do things his way, just exploring easier ways as a holiday is supposed to be about relaxing not faffing about hunting for gas.

[Derek Uzzell]

Personally, unless I were planning (or needed) to take a user-refillable bottle to an autogas pump, I wouldn’t consider the Safefill container nowadays.

 

Safefill bottles are not cheap

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/buy-ab.html

 

and the refilling procedure unavoidably involves disconnecting/reconnecting the bottle.

 

For refilling in any country that does not employ the standard UK propane-bottle POL outlet, either special Safefill ‘POL’ refilling adapters will be needed or a specialised intermediate adapter

 

https://www.propanegaswaterheaters.com/propanegaswaterheaterscom/en/website/productdetails/product/107-safefill-adapter-left-to-righ-thread/?pg=20

 

Safefill containers are lighter than steel refillable bottles and won’t explode in a fire, but IMHO their negatives outweigh their positives.

 

[StuartO]

I also feel that Safefill bottles are unattractive for motorhomers.  They are a good idea that has never quite taken off and unfortunately there are far more potential problems finding places that will let you fill them (in UK and abroad) than there are with installed re-fillables like Gaslow or Gasit.

 

Steer clear!

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

If the OP does find that he's having to move his van to go and refill with gas, as he says he already has refillable Gaslow bottles (so presumably 2?) , how feasible would it be to set one up with it's own, on-bottle filler, so that if needs be it could be removed (and hopefully , refilled)?

At least then, if/when he found that refilling a standalone bottle was not always easy, he could just revert back to his initial refillable system...?

 

..or would that all take too much faffin' with hoses and fittings to make it worth while?

[StuartO]

pepe63 - 2018-02-05 4:03 AMIf the OP does find that he's having to move his van to go and refill with gas, as he says he already has refillable Gaslow bottles (so presumably 2?) , how feasible would it be to set one up with it's own, on-bottle filler, so that if needs be it could be removed (and hopefully , refilled)?At least then, if/when he found that refilling a standalone bottle was not always easy, he could just revert back to his initial refillable system...?..or would that all take too much faffin' with hoses and fittings to make it worth while?

 

Aren't gaslow bottles which have on-the-bottle refill fittings incompatible with installing as a refillable - i.e. as one of two refillables, paired up for purposes of filling from a common filler point on the vehicle's skirt as well as for purposes off automatic changeover when the first bottle is exhausted?

 

While it might be handy to have one of your refillables easily detached so that you could use it for a BBQ as well as have it filled independently, I suspect the arrangement would be impractical for purposes of also installing conventionally.

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi Stuart..

 

I've never owned/used or even had a close rummage around, refillable gas bottles/systems, so I was only really throwing the question/option out there... :-D

 

But if that would be too much of a faff (or it just isn't feasible) and the OP really does need to refill without moving his van, then I suppose switching to just using the one refillable and an exchange bottle that is common to the area(as Tracker posted) would be the simplest option?...

[Derek Uzzell]

To convert a Gaslow system where the bottle’s inlet is fitted with an adapter that permits ‘direct’ filling to a system with a remote filling-point merely involves removing the adapter from the bottle’s inlet and attaching to the inlet a flexible hose leading to the remote filling-point (and vice versa). A Gaslow bottle is a Gaslow bottle whether it is ‘direct’ filled or ‘remotely’ filled.

 

However there are potential weight and handling issues. As I mentioned above, my Rapido has an 11kg Gaslow bottle fitted with a direct-fill adapter. Removing the bottle from the motorhome’s gas-locker would be fairly straightforward, just involving disconnecting the pig-tail between the bottle’s outlet and regulator and undoing the bottle’s hold-down straps. The bottle could then be taken to an autogas pump for refilling. But the bottle when full weighs about 23kg - that’s a lot of weight to lug around and, being metal with a single carrying handle, the bottle is an unwieldy thing to handle. The largest Safefill bottle holds 10kg of gas and weighs 15kg when full, so there’s an appreciable weight-saving and the bottle’s design and ‘plastic’ construction makes it much nicer to handle.

 

Prior to this thread Keff’s previous posting was in 2011 when he owned a 2003 Ducato Maxi-based Murvi motorhome. I’ve no idea if that’s the vehicle he will be changing from, nor the reasoning behind him not choosing to transfer his Gaslow canisters to the replacement motorhome. Perhaps the Gaslow bottles are elderly, or are the old type with untrustworthy contents gauges, or it’s been agreed that the Gaslow system is to be included in the deal relating to the replacement motorhome, or there are reasons for him finding the Safefill approach attractive that are so persuasive that they override the Safefill bottles’ limitations.

 

 

[keninpalamos]

I bought a The small 9.5 litre Safefill bottle about 3 years ago for use in my small camper van. The gas locker has no external door. The door is inside the van about half way along a central isle under the fridge. So to fill it I have to take the bottle out, usually before I get to the filling station and place it next to the side sliding door. It’s very easy to fill/use and have never been refused at a filling station. They are not for everybody or suit every ‘van and they are expensive but I think I made the right choice for my particular ‘van. As for Derek’s MTH bottles, they are of their time. I have two 20 litre units But only use one when touring in my motorhome. I have an external filling point, the type Gas-It use. MTH supplied a short high pressure pigtail so I could connect the empty bottle for a refill via the filling point which is fitted to bodywork next to the gas locker. I’ve use it for over ten years now and never had any problems with it. Once 20 litres has been dispensed, the gun is released in the normal way and the pigtail can be removed at any time. The bottle valve must be turned off to do this obviously. This “system” won’t be sold with the ‘van and I will probable buy a gaslow unit of my next van.

[StuartO]

keninpalamos - 2018-02-05 10:38 AMI bought a The small 9.5 litre Safefill bottle about 3 years ago for use in my small camper van. The gas locker has no external door. The door is inside the van about half way along a central isle under the fridge. So to fill it I have to take the bottle out, usually before I get to the filling station and place it next to the side sliding door. It’s very easy to fill/use and have never been refused at a filling station. They are not for everybody or suit every ‘van and they are expensive but I think I made the right choice for my particular ‘van. As for Derek’s MTH bottles, they are of their time. I have two 20 litre units But only use one when touring in my motorhome. I have an external filling point, the type Gas-It use. MTH supplied a short high pressure pigtail so I could connect the empty bottle for a refill via the filling point which is fitted to bodywork next to the gas locker. I’ve use it for over ten years now and never had any problems with it. Once 20 litres has been dispensed, the gun is released in the normal way and the pigtail can be removed at any time. The bottle valve must be turned off to do this obviously. This “system” won’t be sold with the ‘van and I will probable buy a gaslow unit of my next van.

 

The Safefill bottle suits this application perfectly and the samll size of the camper and the way Keninpalomas fills the bottle probably explains why he's had no trouble filling it.  But this is an exceptional application so I still think Safefill bottles are not really suitable for motorhomers in general.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

There used to be an Alugas 5kg refillable bottle that was dimensionally similar to the 9.5 litres Safefill container, but it had no contents-gauge and no longer seems to be marketed. Currently, there is no direct competitor to the 9.5 litres Safefill bottle, with 6kg metal refillable bottles being significantly taller and the capacity of Gaslow’s 2.7kg R67 bottle being significantly smaller.

 

MTH Autogas developed an 80% cut-off valve for their composite bottles - which would have made them considerably simpler to refill - but I was told that the Chinese company that would have manufactured the valve required a minimum commitment of 1000 units. The cut-off valve was fitted to a few customer bottles for in-use trials.

 

(As Keff’s original question has resulted in a fair amount of comment, it would be useful to have some feedback from him as to why the Safefill bottles were attractive to him and whether or not he has now changed his mind about them.)

[Duffer]

I was chatting to a Gaslow installer on Saturday. Apparently they can also include a tail that you can run outside the vehicle and attach to an 'ordinary' cylinder. Taking a Gaslow bottle out, he said, was not easy because the fittings between the bottles are much tighter than the tail and there is a risk of leakage and/or washer damage. With that tail you can always hook up to a 'local' cylinder outside the van (like caravanners sometimes do).

 

I've changed van and I'm going to get an 11 Gaslow and a 7 Calor.

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

 

I'd always assumed that "lpg cars" were just petrol cars, but with supplementary lpg option/addition ? (ie not solely lpg)... :-S

[Duffer]

pepe63 - 2018-02-05 2:41 PM

 

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

 

I'd always assumed that "lpg cars" were just petrol cars, but with supplementary lpg option/addition ? (ie not solely lpg)... :-S

I don't think so - I think it's just lpg. I remember that companies used to offer to convert the engine.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

You can not refill in the netherlands a Refill gas bottle of any configuration or material. Whit lpg gas on the road stations whit LPG. But you can refill a gastank whit lpg if you the right connection. About the engine it is about have a lpg tank or a cng tank or a hydrogen tank. Not to be mixed. The hydrogen version is a battry driven motorhome. Which we like to see on the market. Diesel is out.

[Keithl]

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:44 PM

 

pepe63 - 2018-02-05 2:41 PM

 

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

 

I'd always assumed that "lpg cars" were just petrol cars, but with supplementary lpg option/addition ? (ie not solely lpg)... :-S

I don't think so - I think it's just lpg. I remember that companies used to offer to convert the engine.

 

The 'conversion' is only adding a tank, regulator and means of injecting the LPG into the engine after allowing it to vaporise. The engine can still run on petrol.

 

They are more usually called 'Dual Fuel' or 'Bi Fuel' cars as they can run on both LPG and Petrol.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-fuel_vehicle

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM

 

I was chatting to a Gaslow installer on Saturday. Apparently they can also include a tail that you can run outside the vehicle and attach to an 'ordinary' cylinder. Taking a Gaslow bottle out, he said, was not easy because the fittings between the bottles are much tighter than the tail and there is a risk of leakage and/or washer damage. With that tail you can always hook up to a 'local' cylinder outside the van (like caravanners sometimes do).

 

I've changed van and I'm going to get an 11 Gaslow and a 7 Calor.

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

 

The “Extend-A-Stay” kit (examples here)

 

http://www.abp-accessories.co.uk/product.php?cat=74

 

is often fitted to American RVs that have a fixed gas-tank to allow an external gas-bottle to be used instead of taking gas from the tank.

 

It shouldn’t be difficult to modify a motorhome’s ‘normal’ gas system to allow an external gas-bottle to be used, but I’d want to question anyone proposing to do this on my motorhome as to what exactly they had in mind. It is possible to obtain long gas pigtails (up to 2.5 metres in length) which should allow an external bottle to be connected without modifying the system.

 

The Calor 7kg bottle contains butane and its outlet uses a clip-on connector. I can’t see any obvious advantage in having the 7kg canister as a 2nd bottle, though I might understand a Calor 4.5kg bottle being chosen as that has the same 21.8LH outlet connector as the Gaslow container.

[Duffer]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-05 6:41 PM

 

Duffer - 2018-02-05 2:33 PM

 

I was chatting to a Gaslow installer on Saturday. Apparently they can also include a tail that you can run outside the vehicle and attach to an 'ordinary' cylinder. Taking a Gaslow bottle out, he said, was not easy because the fittings between the bottles are much tighter than the tail and there is a risk of leakage and/or washer damage. With that tail you can always hook up to a 'local' cylinder outside the van (like caravanners sometimes do).

 

I've changed van and I'm going to get an 11 Gaslow and a 7 Calor.

 

What do LPG cars do when they run out? You can't toddle back up the road with a petrol can, so do they get towed off to a garage?

 

The “Extend-A-Stay” kit (examples here)

 

http://www.abp-accessories.co.uk/product.php?cat=74

 

is often fitted to American RVs that have a fixed gas-tank to allow an external gas-bottle to be used instead of taking gas from the tank.

 

It shouldn’t be difficult to modify a motorhome’s ‘normal’ gas system to allow an external gas-bottle to be used, but I’d want to question anyone proposing to do this on my motorhome as to what exactly they had in mind. It is possible to obtain long gas pigtails (up to 2.5 metres in length) which should allow an external bottle to be connected without modifying the system.

 

The Calor 7kg bottle contains butane and its outlet uses a clip-on connector. I can’t see any obvious advantage in having the 7kg canister as a 2nd bottle, though I might understand a Calor 4.5kg bottle being chosen as that has the same 21.8LH outlet connector as the Gaslow container.

 

I don't know why Gaslow allow an external cylinder connection - presumably there is demand or they wouldn't produce the kit? It certainly wouldn't appeal to me. Maybe it's caravanners that use it - I see a lot still put cylinders outside the vans on THSs.

 

I'm having a Calor 7kg propane as a back-up because in the Western Isles, where I spend a few weeks a year, LPG is unavailable (well, there's one garage open on weekdays in Stornoway on Lewis). Having to catch a ferry to Harris and drive 50+miles to fill the Gaslow would be a pain, but I can swap a Calor on most of the Islands.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Duffer - 2018-02-05 6:52 PM

 

...I'm having a Calor 7kg propane as a back-up...

 

 

I don’t know where you are getting a Calor 7kg PROPANE bottle from then, as it’s not marketed by Calor. (See following link showing all Calor bottles). Presumably you mean 6kg propane.

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/which-gas-bottle

 

I’m guessing that the Gaslow pigtail that you’ve mentioned is Gaslow’s “Reserve Cylinder Connection Hose” shown in this advert (and the attached photo)

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/Gaslow-Reserve-Cylinder-Connection-Hose

 

The hose screws into a Gaslow remote filling-point, with the hose’s other end connecting to a gas-bottle outside the leisure-vehicle.

 

[Steve H]

Keff

 

If you intend to use a safefill bottle then I have two for sale on Gumtree.co.uk in Cambridgeshire if you want to search for them. One of these cylinders could be used along with the Gaslow external filler connection if you wish.