Using Sex Workers in Haiti

[Bulletguy]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

It's certainly not what i'd expect from any charity aid workers. If they must have a prostitute, then there are plenty in their own country.

[John52]

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 10:56 PM

If they must have a prostitute, then there are plenty in their own country.

English law criminalises Brothels - forcing prostitutes to work alone and making it dangerous for them and their clients.

[Bulletguy]

John52 - 2018-02-11 11:28 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 10:56 PM

If they must have a prostitute, then there are plenty in their own country.

English law criminalises Brothels - forcing prostitutes to work alone and making it dangerous for them and their clients.

UK has always been strange John. Whilst prostitution itself isn't illegal in UK, running a brothel, kerb crawling, touting for business etc is illegal. I've long been of the opinion prostitution in this country should be state controlled with the girls registered just as any other employee, working in the safety of state owned brothels. Of course this would also mean every prostitute would pay tax.....something many would undoubtedly not like.

 

Switzerland has one of the best ideas. There it is legal but is state controlled with proper brothels. All the girls are health checked regularly and all obviously pay tax. In Bern there is just one small street where girls who wish to work outside are allowed. Any girls found touting for business away from that street get arrested by the police.

 

Here in UK we arrest the kerb crawlers and let the girls carry on! A mate of mine who spent his life in the Police force told me of his time working on the vice squad. Absolute waste of time and public money. He always said it was just a constant game of running around chasing your own tail. He was glad when he got posted on to the drug squad which was far more interesting and beneficial. By then he was a DI and wasn't long before he made DCI. Top bloke...and still a very useful 'contact'.

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

 

[Violet1956]

RogerC - 2018-02-11 9:24 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

.....but you judge by your own Western standards which is an unfair judgement.  Did you know that in Ukraine for example the prostitutes that frequent the hotels (in Kiev at least) are mostly married and do what they do because they want to (it pays very well apparently) and with their husbands knowledge and agreement?  I know because I have met a few whilst staying there......not I might add through employing their services.

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 12:04 PM   ...  It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

 

While I agree with you that treating someone like a piece of meat to be used and cast aside is despicable, aren't you extrapolating ad absurdam in relation to the Haiti episode?  I've since heard mention of children and vulnerable people being abused but the original story was just Oxfam employees using prostitutes.  Are the bits about children and vulnerable people being abused substantiated fact or just media/campaigner hype? 

 

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

 

[antony1969]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:02 AM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 9:24 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

.....but you judge by your own Western standards which is an unfair judgement.  Did you know that in Ukraine for example the prostitutes that frequent the hotels (in Kiev at least) are mostly married and do what they do because they want to (it pays very well apparently) and with their husbands knowledge and agreement?  I know because I have met a few whilst staying there......not I might add through employing their services.

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

So all the prostitutes were new to the game ??? ... Selling themselves purely because of the disaster ... If your correct then the aid workers need a proper kicking , maybe linking to some evidence of this would be good

[John52]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:02 AM

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

 

Judging by the amount of homelessness and malnutrition in England I'm sure it happens here too.

If the Government really cared about prostitutes they would make it so they don't need to work. Not just take their choice of work away from them.

But, as the English Collection of Prostitutes says, The law makes our job worse. But the Government never even speaks to us before bringing in laws supposed to protect us.

[John52]

antony1969 - 2018-02-12 9:53 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:02 AM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 9:24 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

.....but you judge by your own Western standards which is an unfair judgement.  Did you know that in Ukraine for example the prostitutes that frequent the hotels (in Kiev at least) are mostly married and do what they do because they want to (it pays very well apparently) and with their husbands knowledge and agreement?  I know because I have met a few whilst staying there......not I might add through employing their services.

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

So all the prostitutes were new to the game ??? ... Selling themselves purely because of the disaster ... If your correct then the aid workers need a proper kicking , maybe linking to some evidence of this would be good

Would you say none of the unemployed should be obliged to do a job they don't like?Or just sex workers?

[antony1969]

John52 - 2018-02-12 10:50 AM

antony1969 - 2018-02-12 9:53 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:02 AM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 9:24 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

.....but you judge by your own Western standards which is an unfair judgement.  Did you know that in Ukraine for example the prostitutes that frequent the hotels (in Kiev at least) are mostly married and do what they do because they want to (it pays very well apparently) and with their husbands knowledge and agreement?  I know because I have met a few whilst staying there......not I might add through employing their services.

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

So all the prostitutes were new to the game ??? ... Selling themselves purely because of the disaster ... If your correct then the aid workers need a proper kicking , maybe linking to some evidence of this would be good

Would you say none of the unemployed should be obliged to do a job they don't like?Or just sex workers?

I'm not aware that the unemployed are forced to carry out sex work ... Maybe they are and you could tell ... If they aren't then you've made a really silly comment trying to compare someone who feels they have to go into sex work with someone who is made to go wash dishes

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:35 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

'Tis a pity Stuart that you did not acknowledge what I said in response to your post about men being potentially equally vulnerable. Are you seriously engaged in a debate or just intent on point scoring?

[Violet1956]

John52 - 2018-02-12 10:50 AM

antony1969 - 2018-02-12 9:53 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:02 AM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 9:24 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 9:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 8:52 PM

RogerC - 2018-02-11 8:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-02-11 4:06 PMI had to Google search to find out what news item it was you were on about.Whilst prostitutes should have a right to ply their chosen trade it seems not so in Haiti as it's illegal so that seems clear enough. Oxfam’s country director in Haiti, Roland van Hauwermeiren, who, according to the report, admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam with charitable funds, was allowed to resign. He should have been sacked.

For goodness sake this is Haiti....a third world sh1thole as lawless as it is possible to get amidst other quite civilised countries/islands.Just because Papa Doc and Baby Doc have moved on nothing has really changed there so I fail to see the relevance, or indeed newsworthiness in a report that aid workers, irrespective of appointment, used prostitutes.

As quoted in the article i linked i expect it's the fact they appear to have used (abused) the charities premises, or at least the director had. A charity which does excellent humanitarian aid work all over the world but relies on public donations. What they do in their private life outside of work is their business, but ceases to be once they begin using facilities not owned by them.

I’d go further BG. It is not acceptable for any aid worker to go to a country and exploit some of the most vulnerable and desperate to satisfy their lust. Engaging in the most intimate of human contact with someone who treats you like a piece of meat to be used and then cast off has to be one of the most miserable and dehumanising forms of all social interaction.

.....but you judge by your own Western standards which is an unfair judgement.  Did you know that in Ukraine for example the prostitutes that frequent the hotels (in Kiev at least) are mostly married and do what they do because they want to (it pays very well apparently) and with their husbands knowledge and agreement?  I know because I have met a few whilst staying there......not I might add through employing their services.

I'm not saying that all women who engage in prostitution find it dehumanising just that it is more likely that in disaster areas they will do anything that relieves them or their families from the desperate circumstances that they find themselves in when they would not dream of being a prostitute in other circumstances. That is dehumanising and it should be obvious to an aid worker.

So all the prostitutes were new to the game ??? ... Selling themselves purely because of the disaster ... If your correct then the aid workers need a proper kicking , maybe linking to some evidence of this would be good

Would you say none of the unemployed should be obliged to do a job they don't like?Or just sex workers?

Is this a question for me John? Not sure as it comes after Antony's post.Veronica

[John52]

antony1969 - 2018-02-12 11:23 AM

 

John52 - 2018-02-12 10:50 AM

Would you say none of the unemployed should be obliged to do a job they don't like?

Or just sex workers?

 

I'm not aware that the unemployed are forced to carry out sex work ... Maybe they are and you could tell ... If they aren't then you've made a really silly comment trying to compare someone who feels they have to go into sex work with someone who is made to go wash dishes

 

A question so simple it could have been answered yes or no.

But you prefer obfuscation.

So I'll try and put it another way.

What if the person washing dishes hates the job more than the sex worker?

[colin]

Anyway back to OP.

I note Stuart you have made an assumption, but it would seem that is not how those who have investigated this see it.

These where organised sex parties in a building rented by Oxfam, the investigation could not rule out that these where organised to influence the way funds where spent.

[antony1969]

John52 - 2018-02-12 1:00 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-02-12 11:23 AM

 

John52 - 2018-02-12 10:50 AM

Would you say none of the unemployed should be obliged to do a job they don't like?

Or just sex workers?

 

I'm not aware that the unemployed are forced to carry out sex work ... Maybe they are and you could tell ... If they aren't then you've made a really silly comment trying to compare someone who feels they have to go into sex work with someone who is made to go wash dishes

 

A question so simple it could have been answered yes or no.

But you prefer obfuscation.

So I'll try and put it another way.

What if the person washing dishes hates the job more than the sex worker?

 

Then they'll be going home with clean hands and back on the dole and get a little telling off from the job centre and the sex worker will still be working ... Whats your point ??? ... I don't care for my job but it pays me well and for little effort and pays my household bills , clothes me and the rest so I put up with it ... Why should it be different for someone who doesn't like washing dishes and gets paid more than the dole and gets them off the scrap heap ???

[Bulletguy]

colin - 2018-02-12 2:14 PM

 

Anyway back to OP.

I note Stuart you have made an assumption, but it would seem that is not how those who have investigated this see it.

These where organised sex parties in a building rented by Oxfam, the investigation could not rule out that these where organised to influence the way funds where spent.

And that's the issue really....the property belonged to Oxfam and provided rent free. Had they booked an Hotel room for an hour or whatever with prostitutes then all this could well have been avoided. It's an abuse of an employers facilities.

 

I see the deputy CEO, Penny Lawrence has now resigned saying she's ashamed and takes full responsibility. Apparently there's more been going on though. The Charity Commission was investigating inappropriate sexual behaviour, bullying, harassment and staff intimidation. Oxfam has faced growing criticism of the way it handled the allegations of misconduct by its staff in Haiti, where they were working in the aftermath of the huge earthquake that devastated the country in 2010.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43027631

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 3:12 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:35 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

'Tis a pity Stuart that you did not acknowledge what I said in response to your post about men being potentially equally vulnerable. Are you seriously engaged in a debate or just intent on point scoring?

 

I haven't bothered wading through all the long nested posts by Anthony1969  and John52  so I might have missed a comment from you amongst those.

 

However I do admit to posting this thread slightly tongue in cheek thinking it would probably provide an opportunity to goad you about inconsistences stemming from your political correctness.

 

If charity workers have been behaving in ways we in UK would regard as abusive of vulnerable people after a natural disaster they are supposed to be helping to deal with I do of course condemn them.

 

Equally I condemn the lady spokesperson from the Charity Commissioner who was trying to put out thet they had been kept in the dark by Oxfam when clearly they had been told by Oxfam there had been sexual offences and should therefore, since they are now being so correct about it all, have asked for more information at the time.

 

This was all nearly ten years ago and I suggest the value of digging it all over now is limited.  Clearly Oxfam need to check that their governance is up to modern standards but I don't see much value in politicians or the media making a great meal of this now - or threatenning to cut Oxfam's funding for this reason.  We all know that there is massive corruption in these third world countries and it must be very difficult for Oxfam to distribute aid without encountering very considerable difficulties, including at least some problems with their own staff.  I can understand why they didn't broadcast the details of these problems when they encountered them - and at least they did get rid of the culprits.

 

[StuartO]

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 3:12 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:35 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

'Tis a pity Stuart that you did not acknowledge what I said in response to your post about men being potentially equally vulnerable. Are you seriously engaged in a debate or just intent on point scoring?

 

I haven't bothered wading through all the long nested posts by Anthony1969  and John52  so I might have missed a comment from you amongst those.

 

However I do admit to posting this thread slightly tongue in cheek thinking it would probably provide an opportunity to goad you about inconsistences stemming from your political correctness.

 

If charity workers have been behaving in ways we in UK would regard as abusive of vulnerable people after a natural disaster they are supposed to be helping to deal with I do of course condemn them.

 

Equally I condemn the lady spokesperson from the Charity Commissioner who was trying to put out thet they had been kept in the dark by Oxfam when clearly they had been told by Oxfam there had been sexual offences and should therefore, since they are now being so correct about it all, have asked for more information at the time.

 

This was all nearly ten years ago and I suggest the value of digging it all over now is limited.  Clearly Oxfam need to check that their governance is up to modern standards but I don't see much value in politicians or the media making a great meal of this now - or threatenning to cut Oxfam's funding for this reason.  We all know that there is massive corruption in these third world countries and it must be very difficult for Oxfam to distribute aid without encountering very considerable difficulties, including at least some problems with their own staff.  I can understand why they didn't broadcast the details of these problems when they encountered them - and at least they did get rid of the culprits.

 

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2018-02-12 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 3:12 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:35 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

'Tis a pity Stuart that you did not acknowledge what I said in response to your post about men being potentially equally vulnerable. Are you seriously engaged in a debate or just intent on point scoring?

 

I haven't bothered wading through all the long nested posts by Anthony1969  and John52  so I might have missed a comment from you amongst those.

 

However I do admit to posting this thread slightly tongue in cheek thinking it would probably provide an opportunity to goad you about inconsistences stemming from your political correctness.

 

If charity workers have been behaving in ways we in UK would regard as abusive of vulnerable people after a natural disaster they are supposed to be helping to deal with I do of course condemn them.

 

Equally I condemn the lady spokesperson from the Charity Commissioner who was trying to put out thet they had been kept in the dark by Oxfam when clearly they had been told by Oxfam there had been sexual offences and should therefore, since they are now being so correct about it all, have asked for more information at the time.

 

This was all nearly ten years ago and I suggest the value of digging it all over now is limited.  Clearly Oxfam need to check that their governance is up to modern standards but I don't see much value in politicians or the media making a great meal of this now - or threatenning to cut Oxfam's funding for this reason.  We all know that there is massive corruption in these third world countries and it must be very difficult for Oxfam to distribute aid without encountering very considerable difficulties, including at least some problems with their own staff.  I can understand why they didn't broadcast the details of these problems when they encountered them - and at least they did get rid of the culprits.

I think you and I are not too far apart on the issues that arise due to these incidents on Haiti Stuart. You hit the nail on the head when you referred to what would be our likely response to charity workers in the UK who behaved in the same way as it is alleged these Oxfam workers did. They would be roundly condemned for exploiting very vulnerable people. I have an image in my head of the volunteer in a UK food bank offering a customer another bag of food for sexual favours. However I took the bait. I shall be more wary in future. I do have an issue with the current vogue of attacking any opinion by labeling it as "political correctness". Yes, it can be taken too far but I don't believe there are many people who would ascribe the condemnation of the exploitation of people in dire need as an excessive form of political correctness. Veronica

[pepe63xnotuse]

If the government is going to start withdrawing their funds from organisations that has members that use the services of prostitutes or whose members use the premises supplied to them for "sleazy" sex parties, then we may end up with a depleted overseas military and diplomatic presence......? :-S

[antony1969]

StuartO - 2018-02-12 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 3:12 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:35 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-13 12:10 AM

StuartO - 2018-02-12 9:01 AM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-12 9:15 AM

John52 - 2018-02-11 5:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-02-11 3:29 PMIf the Oxfam workers involved in this were truly charitable they would give these sex workers money or other help for nothing.

Well if its their own money and they are buying a service....I get the argument that prostitutes may not want to do it and only do it for the moneyBut the same argument could be used for any job, and I see no sympathy for the unemployed turning down jobs they don't like.I doubt if it helps prostitutes by taking away their choice, by taking away their opportunity of work.

C'mon John. If other desperate people on Haiti seeing prostitutes suffer less than they do what are they likely to do? I am beginning to wonder if some of the males of the species confuse what it is like for a woman to face a choice of prostitution or destitution with freedom of choice.

 

Sexist remark Veronica, there are male prostitutes as well as female remember.

The thread is about the Haiti incidents - I haven't read anything in the press that said male prostitutes were involved. But of course you're right there are men who might in similar circumstances to those experienced in Haiti who are also vulnerable to being exploited.

 

I started this thread and the original post said nothing about male/female.  (The media stories might have assumed or speculated all sorts of things of course.)

 

Funny how the stereotype of vulnerable = female, abuser = male kicks in though isn't it?  Its so hard to be consistently politically correct.

'Tis a pity Stuart that you did not acknowledge what I said in response to your post about men being potentially equally vulnerable. Are you seriously engaged in a debate or just intent on point scoring?

 

I haven't bothered wading through all the long nested posts by Anthony1969  and John52  so I might have missed a comment from you amongst those.

 

However I do admit to posting this thread slightly tongue in cheek thinking it would probably provide an opportunity to goad you about inconsistences stemming from your political correctness.

 

If charity workers have been behaving in ways we in UK would regard as abusive of vulnerable people after a natural disaster they are supposed to be helping to deal with I do of course condemn them.

 

Equally I condemn the lady spokesperson from the Charity Commissioner who was trying to put out thet they had been kept in the dark by Oxfam when clearly they had been told by Oxfam there had been sexual offences and should therefore, since they are now being so correct about it all, have asked for more information at the time.

 

This was all nearly ten years ago and I suggest the value of digging it all over now is limited.  Clearly Oxfam need to check that their governance is up to modern standards but I don't see much value in politicians or the media making a great meal of this now - or threatenning to cut Oxfam's funding for this reason.  We all know that there is massive corruption in these third world countries and it must be very difficult for Oxfam to distribute aid without encountering very considerable difficulties, including at least some problems with their own staff.  I can understand why they didn't broadcast the details of these problems when they encountered them - and at least they did get rid of the culprits.

Eh ????? ....."long nested posts by Antony 1969 or John 52" ..... You for real ..... Its not often I stick up for John but think you'll find most of your posts are way longer than mine or Johns put together .... If your going to insult then make sure ya get your facts right Stuart ... Too long for ya ???

[antony1969]

pepe63 - 2018-02-12 5:54 PM

 

If the government is going to start withdrawing their funds from organisations that has members that use the services of prostitutes or whose members use the premises supplied to them for "sleazy" sex parties, then we may end up with a depleted overseas military and diplomatic presence......? :-S

 

Maybe even an empty House of Commons

[Violet1956]

pepe63 - 2018-02-12 5:54 PM

 

If the government is going to start withdrawing their funds from organisations that has members that use the services of prostitutes or whose members use the premises supplied to them for "sleazy" sex parties, then we may end up with a depleted overseas military and diplomatic presence......? :-S

What an indictment Pepe! Where do we go from here? Do we accept that the exploitation of people in reduced circumstances is a fact of life or do we say there should be an end to it?