What category is my 1996 2,5 TD Peugeot Boxer Euro 1 or 2?

[Barryd999]

I am just looking into if my Kontiki which was registered in April 1996 is Euro 1 or 2. With the expanding Crit Air zones in France it is a concern.

 

I spent a while this afternoon trying to find out but its not obvious as (I think) 1996 was when Euro 2 came in but that does not necessarily mean mine is Euro 2 I gather.

 

Does anyone know?

[Keithl]

Barry,

 

I think it is most likely only Euro 1.

 

As you say 1996 was the year Euro 2 was introduced but as with all levels it had a 'split' intro. Older models where allowed to continue in production and be registered for a year after brand new models had to meet the higher level.

 

So if your model (ie engine) was introduced to the market before January 1996 then it could continue in production until January 1997 as Euro 1 BUT if the engine model was introduced after January 1996 then it had to meet Euro 2 on introduction.

 

Does your V5C give any clues (ie CO, HC or PM figures)? Or do you possibly have a build sheet from Fiat (I assume) from when the base vehicle was built? If not you will have to contact Fiat and ask the question.

 

There is quite good info on the RAC web page here...

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/euro-emissions-standards/

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

Barryd999 - 2018-02-19 8:55 PM

 

I am just looking into if my Kontiki which was registered in April 1996 is Euro 1 or 2. With the expanding Crit Air zones in France it is a concern...

 

 

Whether your motorhome is 'Euro 1' or 'Euro 2’ is academic as far as how the French Crit’Air scheme rules will apply to it.

 

This is simply because your Kon-Tiki was UK-registered in April 1996 and a Crit’Air sticker is not issued for any vehicle first-registered before 1 January 1997.

 

(I’m pretty sure that, if you attempted to apply for a Crit’Air sticker, when you entered into the on-line application-form the 1996 registration-date shown on your Kon-Tiki’s V5C document, you’d get a rejection message.)

 

This link covers the Crit’Air classification

 

https://www.crit-air.fr/en/information-about-the-critair-vignette/the-french-vignette-critair/who-will-get-which-critair-colours.html

 

Note the comment

 

"...The color of the Crit’Air vignette is decided by the EURO norm, which is indicated in the papers of the vehicle. If the EURO norm is not indicated, then the date of the vehicle’s registration will be taken as a reference.”

 

If a vehicle’s registration document (UK V5C) carries a EURO-norm value, that datum would override the vehicle’s date of registration. However, a EURO-norm value only appears on documentation for vehicles manufactured quite recently, and there’s no chance whatsoever that there will be EURO-norm information on the documentation of a 1996 Ducato-based motorhome.

[colin]

But if Barry finds the Euro number then could he get V5 updated to include it?

[Derek Uzzell]

If Barry were able to obtain ‘official’ documentation from Fiat confirming that his Kon-Tiki’s motor is Euro 2, he could certainly ask the DVLA to include the Euro 2 datum on his motorhome’s V5C.

 

Realistically though, I would have thought it highly unlikely that Fiat would provide such documentation for a 1996 vehicle and, even if it were obtainable, that there’s not a hope in hell’s chance that the DVLA would agree to amend the Kon-Tiki’s V5C given that a Euro-norm datum would not have been present on the original Fiat documentation when the motorhome was registered and that Euro-norm data did not appear on V5Cs 22 years ago.

 

Much simpler to tweak the image of the V5C to a 1997 registration date that would qualify the vehicle for a Euro 2 sticker, as I’m pretty confident the French system won’t cross-reference to the DVLA files - but I’m sure none of us would consider doing that!!

[Barryd999]

Thanks for the replies. I'm out and about at the moment but will have a look on the documents later. It's a Peugeot Boxer 2.5 td not a fiat but I presume it's the same engine. It's further complicated as I have a Blue Badge and badge holders are supposed to be exempt but you still need a sticker which seems a bit bonkers although if I could somehow prove Euro 2 which looks unlikely I would not be restricted.

 

I'll post some for the replies I got from Crit air later. They are a bit alarming.

[Derek Uzzell]

The 2.5 litre motor fitted to a 1996 Peugeot Boxer and the 2.5 litre motor fitted to a 1996 Fiat Ducato are different. The Boxer has a PSA-produced engine, whereas the Ducato has a ‘Sofim’ unit.

 

Even if it were possible to obtain from Peugeot confirmation that Barry’s motorhome’s motor is Euro 2, the idea that the DVLA then be contacted regarding 'updating’ the motorhome’s V5C proves to be a non-starter.

 

The on-line application form for the Crit’Air sticker includes the field "Indication of the environmental category” and one chooses from “No indication of the environmental category” or “EURO 2” through “EURO 6”. However, the field on the vehicle’s registration-document from which that datum should be obtained is given as Field V.9, with the footnote thast Field V.9 is "For the recent certificates of vehicles registered in the European Union”.

 

While it may be the case that Field V.9 does appear on certain "recent certificates of vehicles registered in the European Union”, it does not appear on the V5C of either of my vehicles (registered in 2009 and 2015).

 

So even if Barry asked the DVLA to add a Euro 2 value to his motorhome’s V5C, the DVLA could not do this as the UK V5C has no field to show a vehicle’s Euro-norm category.

[Derek Uzzell]

Barryd999 - 2018-02-20 10:41 AM

 

...It's further complicated as I have a Blue Badge and badge holders are supposed to be exempt but you still need a sticker which seems a bit bonkers although if I could somehow prove Euro 2 which looks unlikely I would not be restricted.

 

I'll post some for the replies I got from Crit air later. They are a bit alarming.

 

There are numerous on-line comments on the lines of

 

"The official Crit’Air website says:

‘As per French decree Décret n°2016-847 from 28th June 2016 vehicles bearing a parking card for disabled persons need no Crit’Air Vignette. Parking cards for disabled persons are the same all over Europe so that vehicles of handicapped persons are recognisable abroad, too.”

 

I’m guessing that this was once advised on this definitely ‘unofficial’ website which middle-mans the purchase of emissions vignettes

 

https://www.crit-air.fr/en.html

 

but if the statement is still there I can’t find it.

 

The OFFICIAL website is this one

 

https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/en/

 

and its FAQ section

 

https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/en/foire-aux-questions

 

includes the Question "Do I need an Air Quality Certificate?”. The Answer includes the following:

 

“ -- I have a disability: do I need an Air Quality Certificate ?

 

YES. An Air Quality Certificate must be affixed in applicable situations, even on vehicles that have a disabled person's parking card. However, people with a disability are not affected by traffic restrictions.”

 

This makes some sense as the French scheme targets vehicles not the people in them.

 

Also worth noting is the Answer to the FAQ "I'd like to find out my vehicle's classification”

 

"My registration certificate doesn't state the EURO standard

 

The vehicle's Euro standard is indicated in the "V.9" field of your registration certificate.

However, this field is included only on recent EU registration certificates.

If so, your vehicle will be classified according to its initial registration date, which in the vast majority of cases produces the same classification.

 

However, in rare cases the vehicle's EURO standard is higher than the standard in effect on its initial registration date (early adoption of the standard). This may allow the vehicle to obtain a higher Crit'air classification. If this situation applies to you, you must have your registration certificate updated before submitting an Air Quality Certificate application."

[Barryd999]

Many thanks Derek. I am basically stuffed then I Reckon. I have contacted both Peugeot and Swift and also the official Ministry from the https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr website.

 

Below is the correspondance with the Crit Air people with the first response at the bottom.

 

Dear Barry

 

Please excuse the shock. Of course, it is right that you should not drive your vehicle into the low emission zones any more.

In France, unfortunately, it is very complicated with the low emission zones, since, in theory, the whole of France is a low emission zone. Most of them are only temporary, i. e. only active when the air pollution peak has been reached. However, this cannot be foreseen and the zones, and therefore driving bans/required sticker requirements, can be activated from one day to the next.

Since you can't get a sticker, we recommend you to download our app. There you can always see when which zone is active in France and whether you are allowed to enter or not.

 

I hope I could take the shock away from you and explain everything to you.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards

 

Frau Anneka Kroehnert

 

Umweltzonen, Fahrverbote,

Plaketten und Vignetten in Europa

 

Green-Zones GmbH

Helmholtzstraße 2-9

D-10587 Berlin

Telefon: +49 30 398 8721-40

Telefax: +49 30 398 8721-29

Mail: info@crit-air.fr

Web: www.green-zones.eu

 

Geschäftsführung Michael Kroehnert

Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg, HRB 169866B

 

Gesendet: Montag, 19. Februar 2018 16:36

An: Info Crit-Air

Betreff: RE: Crit-Air.fr Kontaktformular (EN)

 

Thanks for the reply

 

I am a little shocked though that you are saying I can no longer enter France with this vehicle. I thought it would just mean I cannot drive in the affected zones. Assuming my vehicle does not meet Euro 2 standards.

 

Regards

Barry

 

From: Info Crit-Air [mailto:info@crit-air.fr]

Sent: 19 February 2018 13:32

To:

Subject: AW: Crit-Air.fr Kontaktformular (EN)

 

Dear Barry

 

it's partly true. Vehicles with a disability pass still require a sticker, but are excluded from driving bans.

 

You can only apply for a sticker for your motor home if you can show proof of at least Euro 2.

According to the registration date, your vehicle is too old and you cannot purchase a sticker and therefore you can no longer enter France with this vehicle.

 

If your vehicle has Euro 2, you can easily apply for a sticker in our shop.

 

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / best regards

 

Frau Anneka Kroehnert

 

 

I Think its going to be a case of either winging it or changing vans.

 

[Solomongrundy]

I Think its going to be a case of either winging it or changing vans.

 

Or you could just drive around this wonderful country of ours and delight in the high price of stopping anywhere overnight (as long as you avoid the towns that ban Motorhomes).

 

:-D :-D :-D :-D

[Archiesgrandad]

I commented on this in another post. Any vehicle with an old diesel engine will find that it is going to be taking a chance if they try to drive in France. I live here and I have no confidence at all in my ability to identify the signs which will tell me when I am about to drive into a clean air zone, and whether it is operating,and even my car, which is Cat 2 may sometimes be excluded, and I doubt that I will know about it until the fine appears in the post.

This is the main reason that I sold my 1997 Pilote, which had a Cat 5 sticker. More and more towns in France are getting on this band wagon. The French have recently discovered the gold mine that is fixed penalty charges and they are really going for it.

Coincidently, I have noticed that a lot of secondhand car sales places are now putting big signs on cars with petrol engines.

 

AGD

[Barryd999]

I suppose it depends on how it will be enforced. I assumed enforcement would involve a human rather than a camera but I could be wrong. If its camera based then it will depend if they start issuing fines overseas which they have not done so far with speeding offences. If its just if plod catches you then the likelihood of getting busted I would expect is quite low. I am unsure if we will get abroad this year in the van anyway but I thought it best to look ahead just in case but it will be interesting to see if people start getting nicked both in France and in the UK.

 

Even if I upgraded my van its still likely to be ten years old so you could still fall foul of the laws if your not keeping up with the current days regulations.

 

It sounds like a complete nightmare to me. I wonder how the French are reacting to it.

[Keithl]

Barryd999 - 2018-02-20 4:57 PM

 

Even if I upgraded my van its still likely to be ten years old so you could still fall foul of the laws if your not keeping up with the current days regulations.

 

But at least a ten year old van would have a Euro class of 2 or above so you could get a sticker to then use your blue badge. The problem currently is you cannot get a sticker hence cannot use your blue badge!

 

Keith.

[Barryd999]

Keithl - 2018-02-20 5:12 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-02-20 4:57 PM

 

Even if I upgraded my van its still likely to be ten years old so you could still fall foul of the laws if your not keeping up with the current days regulations.

 

But at least a ten year old van would have a Euro class of 2 or above so you could get a sticker to then use your blue badge. The problem currently is you cannot get a sticker hence cannot use your blue badge!

 

Keith.

 

Oh yes. Forgot about that! That was the whole point of trying to prove Euro 2.

 

I presume there is no route to improving your emissions and gaining a class grading? I Think I read somewhere that you could fit a DPF but I doubt thats even possible on my van and probably costly

[Derek Uzzell]

Two things should be apparent from this webpage

 

https://www.crit-air.fr/en/information-about-the-critair-vignette/french-environmental-zones-zcr/french-environmental-zones.html

 

The first is that the map clearly shows that the French ‘environmental zones’ do not cover the whole country, and the second is that most zones are the non-permanent “ZPA” type where vehicle restrictions are only put in place when air pollution levels reach a defined threshold.

 

It remains to be seen how the French will deal with the large ZPA zones (Presumably somebody has a plan!!) but as things stand there’s still a huge amount of France where a sticker is not a requirement. So even if an elderly motorhome is not eligible for a sticker, there remains plenty of opportunity to wander happily around France without infringing local emissions-control regulations.

 

(Although the advice from Criti’Air to Barry that "According to the registration date, your vehicle is too old and you cannot purchase a sticker” is correct, the follow-up "therefore you can no longer enter France with this vehicle” est une foutaise.)

 

[Barryd999]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-20 6:33 PM

 

Two things should be apparent from this webpage

 

https://www.crit-air.fr/en/information-about-the-critair-vignette/french-environmental-zones-zcr/french-environmental-zones.html

 

The first is that the map clearly shows that the French ‘environmental zones’ do not cover the whole country, and the second is that most zones are the non-permanent “ZPA” type where vehicle restrictions are only put in place when air pollution levels reach a defined threshold.

 

It remains to be seen how the French will deal with the large ZPA zones (Presumably somebody has a plan!!) but as things stand there’s still a huge amount of France where a sticker is not a requirement. So even if an elderly motorhome is not eligible for a sticker, there remains plenty of opportunity to wander happily around France without infringing local emissions-control regulations.

 

(Although the advice from Criti’Air to Barry that "According to the registration date, your vehicle is too old and you cannot purchase a sticker” is correct, the follow-up "therefore you can no longer enter France with this vehicle” est une foutaise.)

 

Yep I lost confidence in their advice when I read that. I just got a bit of a shock when I saw the new map of the zones which included the entire Haute Savoie region which I love but I would never park anywhere near Annecy where perhaps the zone is permanent but I may have to go through it.

 

Will just have to wait and see I guess. Thanks again Derek and all for the excellent advice. Will post any replies I get from Peugeot or Swift but I think we know the answer sadly.

[747]

All you need to do is forge a copy of a genuine sticker Barry.

 

Or I could do you one for £99.99 (+ VAT). ;-)

[Barryd999]

747 - 2018-02-20 10:18 PM

 

All you need to do is forge a copy of a genuine sticker Barry.

 

Or I could do you one for £99.99 (+ VAT). ;-)

 

Yes but you will just draw it on the back of a fag packet in crayon. I bet I could do a pretty convincing one though. :D

[Basil]

Correct me if I am wrong but does not the reply that has been posted come from an independent, possibly private, site that seems to be in the business of providing stickers from all participating countries at vastly inflated prices?

 

On the official CritAir site I can find no mention of the sort of information that has been suggested in the reply, that you cannot enter France with your vehicle, and the signing off of the reply is from a German person at a German address, NOT French.

I got my German sticker from a local Town Hall for 5 Euro whereas on that site they are charging up to 39 Euro.

I got my Crit Air via the official site for around 5-6 Euro (can't remember the amount now).

 

Whilst the mapping of the Zones appear accurate I feel the information is a little misleading in some cases.

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

This RAC webpage

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/euro-emissions-standards/

 

includes a table relating to the Euro emissions standards.

 

Euro 1 is generally considered to apply to vehicles first registered before 1 January 1997.

 

A ‘sticker’ system based on the first-registration date will particularly favour coachbuilt motorhomes, as the vehicle’s chassis (which obviously will include the motor) will start life before the conversion procedure begins and then there will be another time-gap before the completed motorhome gets registered. In most cases the time from when the chassis leaves the factory and the motorhome gets registered will be several months, and in a few instances the time-gap has been years!

 

Barry’s Kon-Tiki was UK-registered in April 1996, but it’s near-certain that its chassis+motor left the Peugeot factorty in 1995. So even if the Euro 2 regulations started in 1996, the Kon-Tiki's motor will be Euro 1.

 

The ‘Crit’Air’ website is just one of several forming part of a general portal

 

https://www.green-zones.eu/en.html

 

that claims to keep abreast of European environmental zones policy and changes, providing information free of charge but covering costs by charging a ‘management fee’ if one chooses to obtain a vignette via the portal. As the website is ‘unofficial’ there’s no guarantee that information/advice will be accurate. (Bit like asking a question on the MHFun form ;-) )

[Barryd999]

I've had a short reply from the official department in France who have basically said my vehicle is too old and I will have to avoid the areas in question. I wonder what happens to someone who lives in a area in one of these Zones with An unclassified vehicle. Swift referred me to Peugeot and Peugeot have acknowledged my request not so far no answer.

[Derek Uzzell]

Barryd999 - 2018-02-22 2:01 PM

 

...I wonder what happens to someone who lives in a area in one of these Zones with An unclassified vehicle. ...

 

Presumably a similar thing to what would have happened when the London LEZ was introduced and someone lived within the LEZ area and owned a vehicle that could not comply with the LEZ regulations.

 

I believe you are just wasting your time trying to progress this ‘conventionally’ as - even if Peugeot told you your Kon-Tiki’s motor was Euro 2 - you’d still not be able to have that fact recorded on your V5C document.

 

That leaves forging a French sticker (which you won’t be able to do convincingly due to its QR code) or ’doctoring’ the image of your V5C before you send it to France (which ought to be practicable and would result in a genuine sticker being issued).

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

The same in antwerp belgium for example. But they pay their diesel taxes. 30 percent lower income by the restaurants. Toll on the transit near antwerp causes promblems of bypassing thru secondary roads thru villages. The uk spend 45 mill euro a year in the EU on tourist activities. We are not longer married but what the heck? The problem starts when the customs come into charge.

[Barryd999]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-22 2:57 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-02-22 2:01 PM

 

...I wonder what happens to someone who lives in a area in one of these Zones with An unclassified vehicle. ...

 

Presumably a similar thing to what would have happened when the London LEZ was introduced and someone lived within the LEZ area and owned a vehicle that could not comply with the LEZ regulations.

 

I believe you are just wasting your time trying to progress this ‘conventionally’ as - even if Peugeot told you your Kon-Tiki’s motor was Euro 2 - you’d still not be able to have that fact recorded on your V5C document.

 

That leaves forging a French sticker (which you won’t be able to do convincingly due to its QR code) or ’doctoring’ the image of your V5C before you send it to France (which ought to be practicable and would result in a genuine sticker being issued).

 

I agree Derek. I have had a reply from Peugeot now as well. Euro 1.

 

It was worth exploring to get a definitive answer or to see what the options if any were so once again thanks to you and everyone who has advised and helped me.

 

It would appear though that with that van at least I am stuffed or will be in the near future. On the plus side though as long as I eventually get a replacement thats got any kind of classification such as Euro 2 I should be fine.