Major and Brexit

[Tracker]

The more you argue, sorry debate, the unknown and the hyperthetical the more you weaken the government negotiations with the EU, and strengthen the hand of the EU who, the weaker they see the UK resolve the less favourable the final 'deal' will be in their efforts to keep our net contributions flowing in to their coffers.

With all that lovely income the EU will never reform or cahnge direction, why would they need to?

I call it self preservation by the EU and you can harldy blame them for wanting to keep the golden goose alive and we as a country are playing right into their hands

As things stand there is a good chance of parliament refusing the deal to be offered and voting for us to be blackmailed into staying in the EU because they think the country cannot handle the unknown.

Snowflake generation isn't so far from correct and in this case it is being taken advantage of by political ambition rather than national resolve.

The labour party should be ashamed of their role in subverting the government purely to gain power and influence and I for one will NEVER vote labour.

How can one nation seeking it's own national best interests negotiate with a political body more concerned with it's own political ambitions and disuading other wannabe exiteers than it is with the economic needs of it's own member states.

[Tracker]

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 1:15 PM

you're becoming a real bore

 

So are you with your continual lengthy regurgitating of multiple posts when what you have to say refers only to the last paragraph of the last cut and copied bit.

 

Please give it rest as you are spoiling so many topics with pages and pages of regurgitations that do not need to be regurgitated for you to make your point.

[antony1969]

Tracker - 2018-03-02 1:39 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 1:15 PM

you're becoming a real bore

 

So are you with your continual lengthy regurgitating of multiple posts when what you have to say refers only to the last paragraph of the last cut and copied bit.

 

Please give it rest as you are spoiling so many topics with pages and pages of regurgitations that do not need to be regurgitated for you to make your point.

 

Sorry B-)

[Barryd999]

Tracker - 2018-03-02 1:35 PM

 

The more you argue, sorry debate, the unknown and the hyperthetical the more you weaken the government negotiations with the EU, and strengthen the hand of the EU who, the weaker they see the UK resolve the less favourable the final 'deal' will be in their efforts to keep our net contributions flowing in to their coffers.

With all that lovely income the EU will never reform or cahnge direction, why would they need to?

I call it self preservation by the EU and you can harldy blame them for wanting to keep the golden goose alive and we as a country are playing right into their hands

As things stand there is a good chance of parliament refusing the deal to be offered and voting for us to be blackmailed into staying in the EU because they think the country cannot handle the unknown.

Snowflake generation isn't so far from correct and in this case it is being taken advantage of by political ambition rather than national resolve.

The labour party should be ashamed of their role in subverting the government purely to gain power and influence and I for one will NEVER vote labour.

How can one nation seeking it's own national best interests negotiate with a political body more concerned with it's own political ambitions and disuading other wannabe exiteers than it is with the economic needs of it's own member states.

 

Yes because the EU being silly foreigners couldn't possibly see that the UK is completely divided over Brexit otherwise huh? I think that much was obvious right from the start, throughout the campaign and over the last 20 months. If Labour win the next election Rich will you come on here and suggest we all put on a united front and back Corbyn? If the Government had followed the example of most civilised countries that hold referendums over nation changing issues it would have required a super majority to proceed to a final referendum two years hence once we knew what was on the table. We are where we are though and Ive just spent the last hour and a half watching Chairman Mays speech and questions ( presume most of you will have as well). Finally a little bit of meat on the bones but clearly a step towards compromise. Compromise for Brexiteers, Remainers and the EU which basically spells out a path to a soft Brexit. Yippydo. How exciting. For nobody. Its clear though a deal is what she is going to fight for, a deal that will be dictated by the EU as it turns out they dont need us more than we need them and they know that. They dont need to see Brits on social media "whinging" about Brexit to know they have us over a barrel.

[antony1969]

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2018-03-02 1:35 PM...................With all that lovely income the EU will never reform or cahnge direction, why would they need to?

I call it self preservation by the EU and you can harldy blame them for wanting to keep the golden goose alive and we as a country are playing right into their hands

As things stand there is a good chance of parliament refusing the deal to be offered and voting for us to be blackmailed into staying in the EU because they think the country cannot handle the unknown.............................

How can one nation seeking it's own national best interests negotiate with a political body more concerned with it's own political ambitions and disuading other wannabe exiteers than it is with the economic needs of it's own member states.

Now I'm totally confused - again! :-D

 

First, who do you mean by the EU, Rich? You seem to see a single entity, lead my some Margrave with feudal powers. I see a group of 27 countries who have difficulty agreeing a single position on anything, being represented by a bureaucracy that is ultimately bound to execute what the 27 eventually settle upon.

 

If your contention that we shall eventually decide to stay in the EU is correct, it will not be as a result of blackmail by the EU, but because we slowly begin to grasp that leaving will inflict more injury on ourselves than anyone else. It will have nothing to do with the unknown, or not being able to handle it, and everything to do with looking forward, and not liking what we see. We handle the unknown every day of our lives. We expect tomorrow to be much like today, and so on, but even tomorrow is unknown.

 

As to whether one nation seeking it's own national best interests can "negotiate with a political body more concerned with it's own political ambitions and disuading other wannabe exiteers than it is with the economic needs of it's own member states", I would say quite easily. It works out what it wants to achieve, tables its demands with some negotiating slack built in, and then negotiates to get as close to its ideal as it possibly can.

 

The trick is in the first bit, so I think you posed the wrong question. The question that should be asked, IMO, is "how can a nation seek to further its own national interests when it is governed by a party that can't define those interests, and persistently places its own party interest before the nation's interests, in some vainglorious bit to retain power?"

[Tracker]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-02 3:31 PM

The trick is in the first bit, so I think you posed the wrong question. The question that should be asked, IMO, is "how can a nation seek to further its own national interests when it is governed by a party that can't define those interests, and persistently places its own party interest before the nation's interests, in some vainglorious bit to retain power?"

 

I don't see the EU beaurocracy of MEPs and senior civil servants as representing the interests of it's members at all, far from it, it is more of a self serving entity with it's own political agenda hell bent on imposing a United States of Europe on it's member states, importing as many illegal refugees as possible to places that will not affect any of them personally and making us pay for it, but only when it isn't shifting itself between Starsburg and Brussels.

 

Thanks, but no thanks, it began with the best of intentions as a trading partnership but like a precocious two headed child the EU hierarchy is now threatening to eat it's parents out of house and home.

 

That our own political parties are inept is a different matter but as long as the parties not only try and score brownie points off each other but also from others allegedly in the same party is worrying at a time when we need to show national unity.

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 12:59 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 11:50 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 11:01 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-03-02 8:46 AM

 

HI,

I would not agree with a vote for MP's free or not because they would vote on what is good for the party and not the people,it definitely could bring down the present govt. I would however welcome another referendum. Why, because for or against leaving the EU, I believe people have a better idea now about the benefits and non benefits as all we had last time was the Big Bus.plus the people vote for what they want and are not or threatened by party leaders.

cheers

derek

 

Of course it makes sense. If it had been a landslide result in the first place maybe not but everyone knows a lot more now and lets face it the "They need us more than we need them" mantra that was rolled out by the Brexiteers has clearly turned out to be a load of rubbish. Now it seems we are either going to have a Hard Brexit which only a minority want or a soft Brexit which leaves us still worse off but having to play by EU rules and probably free movement etc.

 

Anyway clearly by the results of Antony's poll above it will be a landslide for Leave so you would think the Brexiteers would be rallying for a second referendum then to put an end to it all seeing as its so clear they would win by a mile.

 

But I won the first neverendum , why the hell would I want another what ever percentages any poll gives ... I aren't the one constantly whinging ... You do contradict yourself a tad though claiming only a minority want a hard Brexit then suggest a landslide for Leave when Tony Blairs own poll is taken into account which asked if you'd still vote leave for a Brexit at all costs ... Like most of your Brexit moaning its confusing

 

God knows where in Twitter you dragged that one up from...

The logo blurb and hash tags tells you all you need know about that Barry!! ;-)

[snowie]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-02 12:48 PM

 

Don't agree Alan, sorry. It wouldn't be possible to run a single issue election, so Brexit would get lost into a miasma of other issues, with just some vague "bags of wiggle room" platitudes in the manifestos.

 

Live by the referendum, die by the referendum - and then ban referendums for the foreseeable future! :-D

The last thing we needed and need in the future is single issue politics.

A General Election that put Brexit in the mix with the rest of the issues that we all care about, and where all age groups could vote for a programme that would make their lives better would be very appealing.

Problem is that neither major party has the imagination necessary.

Cheers,Snowie

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-03-02 4:03 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 12:59 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 11:50 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 11:01 AM

 

derek pringle - 2018-03-02 8:46 AM

 

HI,

I would not agree with a vote for MP's free or not because they would vote on what is good for the party and not the people,it definitely could bring down the present govt. I would however welcome another referendum. Why, because for or against leaving the EU, I believe people have a better idea now about the benefits and non benefits as all we had last time was the Big Bus.plus the people vote for what they want and are not or threatened by party leaders.

cheers

derek

 

Of course it makes sense. If it had been a landslide result in the first place maybe not but everyone knows a lot more now and lets face it the "They need us more than we need them" mantra that was rolled out by the Brexiteers has clearly turned out to be a load of rubbish. Now it seems we are either going to have a Hard Brexit which only a minority want or a soft Brexit which leaves us still worse off but having to play by EU rules and probably free movement etc.

 

Anyway clearly by the results of Antony's poll above it will be a landslide for Leave so you would think the Brexiteers would be rallying for a second referendum then to put an end to it all seeing as its so clear they would win by a mile.

 

But I won the first neverendum , why the hell would I want another what ever percentages any poll gives ... I aren't the one constantly whinging ... You do contradict yourself a tad though claiming only a minority want a hard Brexit then suggest a landslide for Leave when Tony Blairs own poll is taken into account which asked if you'd still vote leave for a Brexit at all costs ... Like most of your Brexit moaning its confusing

 

God knows where in Twitter you dragged that one up from...

The logo blurb and hash tags tells you all you need know about that Barry!! ;-)

 

As thread moderator ;-) .........Folk still have time to vote :D .......

 

https://www.facebook.com/instituteglobal/posts/10156368585798825

 

 

[snowie]

Tracker - 2018-03-02 1:35 PM

 

The labour party should be ashamed of their role in subverting the government purely to gain power and influence and I for one will NEVER vote labour.

 

But you never would have anyway Tracker!

 

How can one nation seeking it's own national best interests negotiate with a political body more concerned with it's own political ambitions and disuading other wannabe exiteers than it is with the economic needs of

it's own member states.

 

One nation being negotiated for by a party more concerned with its own interests, sounds very similar

 

 

 

Regards, Snowie

[Guest pelmetman]

snowie - 2018-03-02 4:32 PM

 

 

One nation being negotiated for by a party more concerned with its own interests, sounds very similar

 

Regards, Snowie

 

As thread moderator ;-) ........

 

That is why one party gets to form a government ;-) ........

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2018-03-02 4:00 PM.......................I don't see the EU beaurocracy of MEPs and senior civil servants as representing the interests of it's members at all, far from it, it is more of a self serving entity with it's own political agenda hell bent on imposing a United States of Europe on it's member states, importing as many illegal refugees as possible to places that will not affect any of them personally and making us pay for it, but only when it isn't shifting itself between Starsburg and Brussels.

 

.................................That our own political parties are inept is a different matter but as long as the parties not only try and score brownie points off each other but also from others allegedly in the same party is worrying at a time when we need to show national unity.

You can't include MEP's as bureaucrats, surely, Rich - unless you'd also include our own MP in the same class. After all, the MEPs are directly elected to the EU parliament as representatives of their countries. You've left out the European Council, which is composed of the elected ministers of the member countries. The only bit that is unelected is the Commission, and they only get their way if either the Council or the Parliament agrees with them.

 

This United States of Europe stuff is as old as the Coal and Steel Commission (67 years), which begat the EEC, which begat the EU. It is an old idealist's pipe-dream. It ain't happened yet, and I don't detect any appetite for it among the electorates of the EU. However, nothing would stop us bolting for the exit were it to become a future possibility, so there's no need to rush off at half cock now.

 

Showing national unity make no difference, IMO. Just having a cogent plan is all that is needed, and that remains an illusion. If you know what you want, you can negotiate for it. But if you don't know what you want...............................?

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-03-02 4:37 PM

 

snowie - 2018-03-02 4:32 PM

 

 

One nation being negotiated for by a party more concerned with its own interests, sounds very similar

 

Regards, Snowie

 

As thread moderator ;-) ........

 

That is why one party gets to form a government ;-) ........

Er, no, Dave. That is when parliamentary democracy is destroyed.

 

Whichever party gets the most seats gets to form a government. The compact is that it then governs in the best interests of the country, as it understands that interest.

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

You wouldnt have to as they come around often enough. I bet you would be campaigning to get him out though in between. You know the facts or at least the plan when you elect a government, its called a manifesto. You would assume you would have an idea of what that party represents as well before you tick the box seeing as we have been voting the same two parties in all our lives.

 

With Brexit we knew nothing. In or out was the question. Now we know lots.and frankly it doesn't look quite as good as it was dressed up to be does it? Even the Sainted Theresa as you and Dave used to call her has made it clear today its going to cost us.

 

she acknowledged the UK can not have ‘all the benefits’ of the single market without ‘all of the obligations’.

 

May said Britain had to accept that the European Court of Justice would ‘continue to affect’ the UK even if it was no longer under its jurisdiction.

 

She said the UK was prepared to make ‘binding commitments’ for regulations to remain in line with the EU.

 

The PM said the UK would commit to keep regulatory standards ‘as least as high’ as the EU in order to facilitate a ‘customs partnership’.

 

May said the UK would be willing to pay to continue to participate on EU agencies including the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

 

She rejected Brexiteers arguments that it was up to the EU to solve the Irish border problem. ‘We chose to leave and we have a responsibility to help find a solution,’ she said.

 

 

Doesnt sound like the kind of Brexit you or the other Brexiteers on here voted for does it?

 

Thats my whole point. None of it is what it said on the tin.

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 5:42 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

 

May said the UK would be willing to pay to continue to participate on EU agencies including the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

 

She rejected Brexiteers arguments that it was up to the EU to solve the Irish border problem. ‘We chose to leave and we have a responsibility to help find a solution,’ she said.

 

 

Doesnt sound like the kind of Brexit you or the other Brexiteers on here voted for does it?

 

Thats my whole point. None of it is what it said on the tin.

Raised on Channel 4 news this week.....with some very interesting points which i doubt any Brexit voter had the slightest inkling about the consequences.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/brexit-viewed-from-derry-londonderry

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 5:42 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

You wouldnt have to as they come around often enough. I bet you would be campaigning to get him out though in between. You know the facts or at least the plan when you elect a government, its called a manifesto. You would assume you would have an idea of what that party represents as well before you tick the box seeing as we have been voting the same two parties in all our lives.

 

With Brexit we knew nothing. In or out was the question. Now we know lots.and frankly it doesn't look quite as good as it was dressed up to be does it? Even the Sainted Theresa as you and Dave used to call her has made it clear today its going to cost us.

 

she acknowledged the UK can not have ‘all the benefits’ of the single market without ‘all of the obligations’.

 

May said Britain had to accept that the European Court of Justice would ‘continue to affect’ the UK even if it was no longer under its jurisdiction.

 

She said the UK was prepared to make ‘binding commitments’ for regulations to remain in line with the EU.

 

The PM said the UK would commit to keep regulatory standards ‘as least as high’ as the EU in order to facilitate a ‘customs partnership’.

 

May said the UK would be willing to pay to continue to participate on EU agencies including the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency and the European Aviation Safety Agency.

 

She rejected Brexiteers arguments that it was up to the EU to solve the Irish border problem. ‘We chose to leave and we have a responsibility to help find a solution,’ she said.

 

 

Doesnt sound like the kind of Brexit you or the other Brexiteers on here voted for does it?

 

Thats my whole point. None of it is what it said on the tin.

 

Elections come around less frequently than you'd like neverendums to ... Regarding manifestos who the hell believes all the twaddle spewed by any of our politicians during elections ??? Please don't say you do ... Regarding what Mrs May said Ive not heard her speech Barry so can't comment ... Im sure you'll have pulled out the bits that suit your agenda and I will probably be able to do the same once Ive listened to it ... Regarding what it said on the tin did anyone know what it said ??? ... Im going supermarket shopping tomorrow and as a Leave voter I panic and don't realise what I went shopping for so maybe you as a superior Remain voter could come and help me pick the items I need because after all you seem to know best

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-02 5:05 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-03-02 4:37 PM

 

snowie - 2018-03-02 4:32 PM

 

 

One nation being negotiated for by a party more concerned with its own interests, sounds very similar

 

Regards, Snowie

 

As thread moderator ;-) ........

 

That is why one party gets to form a government ;-) ........

Er, no, Dave. That is when parliamentary democracy is destroyed.

 

Whichever party gets the most seats gets to form a government. The compact is that it then governs in the best interests of the country, as it understands that interest.

 

That's what I said init? ;-) .......ie what it see's as the best interest of the country :D .......

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 5:42 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

You wouldnt have to as they come around often enough. I bet you would be campaigning to get him out though in between. You know the facts or at least the plan when you elect a government, its called a manifesto. You would assume you would have an idea of what that party represents as well before you tick the box seeing as we have been voting the same two parties in all our lives.

+1 :-). Plus, you know you can get rid of them after 5 years. Try that post Brexit.

 

You say you won, Antony, as though it was a game of football. Well, yes, you were one who voted to leave, and leave had a small majority. But what, apart from the referendum vote, have you actually won?

 

Whether you (and therefore the rest of us) actually "won" (assuming the lemmings do go over the cliff) will only become apparent some years, possibly decades, hence.

 

Supposing the economy doesn't grow as the Brexiters forecast, and you find your income falling as a result, would that still count as a win? Would it still count as a win if the rest of the EU gets richer, while we get poorer? Just asking, mind. :-)

[Barryd999]

Well judging by the hour long speech today laying out Mrs Mays Brexit nobody will be a "winner". Its as a lot of us have been saying, its just a compromise and damage limitation we will end up with. Whats the point?

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-02 6:39 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 5:42 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

You wouldnt have to as they come around often enough. I bet you would be campaigning to get him out though in between. You know the facts or at least the plan when you elect a government, its called a manifesto. You would assume you would have an idea of what that party represents as well before you tick the box seeing as we have been voting the same two parties in all our lives.

+1 :-). Plus, you know you can get rid of them after 5 years. Try that post Brexit.

 

You say you won, Antony, as though it was a game of football. Well, yes, you were one who voted to leave, and leave had a small majority. But what, apart from the referendum vote, have you actually won?

 

Whether you (and therefore the rest of us) actually "won" (assuming the lemmings do go over the cliff) will only become apparent some years, possibly decades, hence.

 

Supposing the economy doesn't grow as the Brexiters forecast, and you find your income falling as a result, would that still count as a win? Would it still count as a win if the rest of the EU gets richer, while we get poorer? Just asking, mind. :-)

It's safe to say the 'win' was a goal when the goalkeeper wasn't there, but now he's returned and the rest of their 'game' will rely on penalty kicks but the goalkeeper is good and keeps stopping their ball going in the net! (lol)

 

It's also worth remembering Article 50 can still be reversed......and the man who said so should know better than anyone else....as he helped draft it.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-article-50-reversal-misleading-public-author-lord-kerr-claims-a8046676.html

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 6:55 PM

 

Well judging by the hour long speech today laying out Mrs Mays Brexit nobody will be a "winner". Its as a lot of us have been saying, its just a compromise and damage limitation we will end up with. Whats the point?

 

I'd rather pick up the tab for a bag of crisps than a 3 course meal ;-) .........

 

 

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-02 6:39 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 5:42 PM

 

antony1969 - 2018-03-02 3:22 PM

 

If Corbyn did win the next election and we had a Labour Government I can guarantee we the losers wouldn't be still be asking for a second election 18 months later because we weren't told the facts

 

You wouldnt have to as they come around often enough. I bet you would be campaigning to get him out though in between. You know the facts or at least the plan when you elect a government, its called a manifesto. You would assume you would have an idea of what that party represents as well before you tick the box seeing as we have been voting the same two parties in all our lives.

+1 :-). Plus, you know you can get rid of them after 5 years. Try that post Brexit.

 

You say you won, Antony, as though it was a game of football. Well, yes, you were one who voted to leave, and leave had a small majority. But what, apart from the referendum vote, have you actually won?

 

Whether you (and therefore the rest of us) actually "won" (assuming the lemmings do go over the cliff) will only become apparent some years, possibly decades, hence.

 

Supposing the economy doesn't grow as the Brexiters forecast, and you find your income falling as a result, would that still count as a win? Would it still count as a win if the rest of the EU gets richer, while we get poorer? Just asking, mind. :-)

 

Brian no I won the Leave or Remain vote , nothing at all like a football game , I won you lost accept that and the pain may ease ... Your right of course in saying I won't truly know if Ive won for a long time , possibly not even in my lifetime but Im quite prepare to accept that as a gamble and have from the very beginning but I don't need constant wingers and moaners telling me Ive made a mistake or I wasn't able to take in all the info because Im some kind of in-breed ... As for the economy it will not effect me either way , won't stop me earning a dollar ... Folk will always need the likes of moi ... Voting wether in elections or neverendums is a gamble and I chose to gamble ... Am I right to gamble only time will tell but my gamble was the winning gamble not the whinging gamble

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 6:55 PM

 

Well judging by the hour long speech today laying out Mrs Mays Brexit nobody will be a "winner". Its as a lot of us have been saying, its just a compromise and damage limitation we will end up with. Whats the point?

 

Rub your ball and tell us what it says oh mighty one

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2018-03-02 6:59 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-03-02 6:55 PM

 

Well judging by the hour long speech today laying out Mrs Mays Brexit nobody will be a "winner". Its as a lot of us have been saying, its just a compromise and damage limitation we will end up with. Whats the point?

 

I'd rather pick up the tab for a bag of crisps than a 3 course meal ;-) .........

 

 

Not if the tab for the packet of crisps ends up costing you four times what the three course meal would have you wouldn't. Sums up Brexit though, a packet of crisps. Cheap.