Mr Motorhome Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Hi Brian I don’t know the people personally. I was told by the workshop themselves that they had failed other vehicles for the same ‘issue’. Regards, Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 10:38 AM A question? Way back, on 19 March, you said " I also know they have failed other MH’s for the same reason." May I ask how you came to know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Mr Motorhome - 2018-04-04 11:48 AM Hi Brian I don’t know the people personally. I was told by the workshop themselves that they had failed other vehicles for the same ‘issue’. Regards, Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 10:38 AM A question? Way back, on 19 March, you said " I also know they have failed other MH’s for the same reason." May I ask how you came to know that? Interesting! So, at least they are consistent, though I wonder if they have carried out similar modifications to the other vehicles? It's a bit worrying their tester hasn't checked his facts over time, or questioned why all these vehicles should be riding on their bump stops, especially in view of that specific warning in his handbook. He has rather a lot to answer for, and it must be hugely embarrassing for the owner to know his employee has issued a number of invalid fail notices. I'm amazed it hasn't been picked up before by someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Interesting indeed, Brian. Upon contacting the workshop to raise my concerns, and their initial offer of a full refund and replacement of my original single leaf springs, they then went on to say that they would still continue to fail vehicles presented for MOT with this same suspension set up. Also, although I’m not 100% certain, I believe it’s the workshop owner who carried out the MOT on my vehicle. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Have a look at your certificate. It will have the tester's name, and the test station's identification number in the boxes at the top, along with the date of test and vehicle details. Have you drawn that "Matters of Testing" flysheet to their attention, plus the caution in the tester's manual that "A suspension bump stop must not be confused with rubber/synthetic suspension spring assistors"? They may get a bit grumpy about that :-) (telling them how to do their job, etc!), but in view of his statement that he will continue failing similar vehicles on the same basis (especially in the light of the item being dropped from the test requirements after May 19, as referenced by Derek), it does seem someone is not keeping their ear close to the ground. If he fails vehicles on that ground post 19 May he'll really be in the soup, as failing on a non testable item is presumably a bigger transgression than failing as the result of error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share Posted April 4, 2018 Hi Brian Checked the MOT certificate and it was indeed the owner who carried out the MOT. I did bring to his attention the caution in the testers manual and the availability of a number of articles regarding this issue. However, Ford apparantly are sending the owner written confirmation that my vehicle has ‘bump stops’ as opposed to assisters so it’s a bit of a stale mate at the moment. I am currently trying to obtain my own written confirmation to prove otherwise. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Have you got hold of anyone useful at Ford yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 It is a buffer who prevents damage to the rear suspension in their upper limit positions, and therefore form part of it. And damage to the chassis rail and wheel arch. The last one very important to the side walls of your hymer. That axle upper movememt should be stopped by something who can take the load. The ducato use the same thing, but have three variants. But if they block leaf spring upper movement due to load sagging you may have a rear suspension problem. Ask ford how they calibrate in the factory at zero load and full bumpstop load maxium. And what free space. It is useless to put springs or air to your axle if your original is worned out of his tolerances. We are talking cheap money here to get it straight. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 The Ford part number is 4519477 As I’ve highlighted repeatedly Ford refer to this part as a ‘bump stop’, but - as it will always be close to or touching the rear axle - it clearly provides near-continuous assistance to the rear springs exactly as Aeon rubber springs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Monique, we know what bump stops are, and these are not bump stops: they are supplementary springs that were original equipment fitted by Ford to the Transit chassis. They were not added to Mr Motorhome's van as part of its conversion by Hymer, or later. Mr Motorhome's van failed it's MoT test because the tester did not understand the difference between a bump stop, and a supplementary spring. That is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 AFAIK the Ford part is designed both as a spring assitor and a bump stop, which is probably why Ford call them bump stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Hi The spring assister becomes a bump stop when fully compressed that why I said you can still fail an mot when fitted with this type of suspension and a before photo is the only way to know the condition at time of mot. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Hi Brian Mixed results so far. However, I think I can safely state that the M.D. of Ford doesn’t fall under the category of ‘useful’! I have written to Ford Technical Information Centre (rather than spend, who knows how long, on the premium rate telephone number) requesting clarification. I’ve included vehicle VIN and registration numbers along with photographs. Hopefully it won’t be too long before I hear back. I’ve had more success with DVSA (Vehicle Testing and Roadworthiness). I have managed to get, in writing and on DVSA headed paper, the information I wanted. Regards, Brian Kirby - 2018-04-04 2:27 PM Have you got hold of anyone useful at Ford yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Thank you, Derek. That could be very useful. Regards, Derek Uzzell - 2018-04-04 4:37 PM The Ford part number is 4519477 As I’ve highlighted repeatedly Ford refer to this part as a ‘bump stop’, but - as it will always be close to or touching the rear axle - it clearly provides near-continuous assistance to the rear springs exactly as Aeon rubber springs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 Yes, that’s how I believe they work having researched online. Thanks, Regards, colin - 2018-04-04 7:40 PM AFAIK the Ford part is designed both as a spring assitor and a bump stop, which is probably why Ford call them bump stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Anyway they compress in height allowed by the spring rate of your leaf spring to prevent overstress. If the bumpstop makes contact at the mot in a certain Miro condiion he has a point. And the ground clearance becomes a point. But i have no clue of this. Is their a preload possible ? The movement of a alko rear is exaxtly defined in degrees together whit the wheel arch., At fully unloaded being hanging out of the springs when your chassis rail is uplifted and the wheel is free to move as changing a tyre. Check this poiint on fiat ducato against the stop. Than let it down and measure: and now it comes at full rear axle load let say 2000kg. And ask ford what should be left than. A stop is a stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Have a look at a alko chassis plant. where a chassis is bolted on to a fiat ducato pull. They calibrate the rear axle whit a weight on it and do all geometry on front and rear. Does ford transit and fiat does the same? If yes they must have dimension tables in news tate and track records of worn limits.. It is as simple as an egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 But Monique, this van is on the Ford chassis-cab base, not Al-Ko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Brian I am aware that it is on a ford transit chassis cab base on which a so called in approval terms a superstructure is built on. In this case a hymer, Ford does not supply chassis cowls for A class integral. Anyway there is a channel between ford and hymer on what they should deliver to them. And building restrictions. The same as any other base makers. Why they can not provide this info on the axle stops. Are the afraid of something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-04-06 4:12 PM ...Ford does not supply chassis cowls for A class integral... Nowadays Ford does not supply chassis for ‘integral’ motorhome’s, but in the mid-to-late 2000s Ford was supplying Hymer with Transit platform-cowl chassis for the “Exsis” range of A-class motorhomes. Those Ford-based Exsis ‘integral’ designs had the same long plastic ‘cones’/bump-stops as Mr Motorhome’s Hymer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-04-06 4:12 PM Brian I am aware that it is on a ford transit chassis cab base on which a so called in approval terms a superstructure is built on. In this case a hymer, Ford does not supply chassis cowls for A class integral. Anyway there is a channel between ford and hymer on what they should deliver to them. And building restrictions. The same as any other base makers. Why they can not provide this info on the axle stops. Are the afraid of something ? I don't think this involves Hymer at all Monique. Ford will be able to confirm the state in which the platform-cab was delivered to Hymer from the vehicle's VIN. These rear spring assistors are standard across a large number of Transit variants. The point is that although Ford misleadingly refer to them as bump stops in their parts description, that have a wider function than "normal" bump stops. Their main function seems to be to work in tandem with the conventional leaf springs by absorbing part of the axle load while having a weaker rebound response under shock loading. So, the ride is less "bouncy" and more compliant than if conventional steel helper springs had been used. This is not a motorhome specific suspension feature: it applies equally to the cargo carrying Transit variants. As such, it is really only Ford who can confirm their functionality, which is the confirmation that Mr Motorhome has requested from Ford. Once he has that, he can demonstrate to the tester that his diagnosis of the van was riding on its bump stops was wrong, and hopefully his much altered rear suspension can then be reverted to its normal, design, single leaf, configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Aa a Ford Transit based M/H owner (2007) I have been reading this with interest. My suspension has the "spring assisters" in question. I have never had a problem with the MOT. My assisters touch the axle under even slight load conditions having not more than 5mm clearance when totally unloaded. I have always felt that the rear suspension is to soft for the application and have looked at air assistance but have never taken it any further. If air bellows were fitted the rubber spring assisters would be removed, there would be no gap between the air bellows and the axle and any bump stop must be within the bellows and is not visible. I would be cross if that made it an MOT fail! H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 The flow chart in multi building stage one is ford ordered by hymer as stage two whit bump stops front and rear. At the cheapest price possible. The more less the better. in price and weight. If it is a Van they even cut the windows out themselves. Their are 5 ribs and 3 ribs and yellow and blue springs o a VW T6, not having leaf springs. The same is on fiat and ford but whit leaf springs. Just cut the long one bump stop in half to pass the MOT by a saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 The only bumpstops you can see is your rear axle,The front is more difficult. Instead you have seen a youtube how to remove the dome bearing of a front strut. But again in that strut sits a bumpstop as on your rear axle. You have a lot of other rubber stops in your mh by the way: All are critical in their end position. Only a dog sees your underbody and the garage. Rely on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motorhome Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 Thanks for the information regarding your spring assisters and their positioning. It would seem that obtaining a pass or a fail can be dependent on the knowledge/experience of the tester ie if they are aware of the difference betweeen an ‘ordinary’ bump stop and a suspension spring assister. My motorhone passed its MOT last year at the garage I get my, and the families cars, MOT’d at but failed this year at a different workshop. The only reason I got the MOT at this garage was because I was having a habitation check and fridge service carried out so thought it would be easier to get the MOT done at the same time. I wish I had used my normal garage! Regards, hallii - 2018-04-06 7:23 PM Aa a Ford Transit based M/H owner (2007) I have been reading this with interest. My suspension has the "spring assisters" in question. I have never had a problem with the MOT. My assisters touch the axle under even slight load conditions having not more than 5mm clearance when totally unloaded. I have always felt that the rear suspension is to soft for the application and have looked at air assistance but have never taken it any further. If air bellows were fitted the rubber spring assisters would be removed, there would be no gap between the air bellows and the axle and any bump stop must be within the bellows and is not visible. I would be cross if that made it an MOT fail! H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andytw Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Just a thought. I wonder if there would be any value in a phone call to SV Tech 01772 621800 or an email enquiries@svtech.co.uk. They might be able to give a different angle on the whole issue. They may have chassis build specs or whatever. They'll certainly understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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