weldted Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Hi, just got my new logbook back fromDVLA. I have uprated to 3850 with semi air and larger tyres, reading the new log book Revenue weight shows at 3850 But F.1 shows Max permissible mass at 3500 And G mass in service 1680 Am I reading this wrong? I would of though the MAM would be 3850 The certificate from SV tech was sent with the old logbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 It's wrong, Ted. There is an obvious contradiction that is likely to cause problems. FWIW, mine gives revenue weight as 3,500kg, but leaves F1 blank. G is only relevant to your maximum permissible speed in UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 Hi Brian, when I sent the old log book off it showed MAM as 3700, been onto dvla for over two hours they can't find any trace of the SV tech certificate and just keep passing me around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 I actually got weight checked just outside Limoges and I was just over my then 3700 limit, the officer checked the logbook and pointed at the MAM weight and shook his head I was only 30 kg over he said stop at the next aire and empty out some water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 Just heard back from DVLA, their mistake sending out a new log book tomorrow Phew!, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorT Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Hi When you get the vehicle uprated does the maximum towing capacity remain the same as before - or is it reduced. Thanks Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 It will probably be reduced, but it will depend on the reason the manufacturer restricted the trailer weight in the first place. What will not be altered in the process of uprating is the Gross Train Weight (GTW), which is the legal maximum weight for the trailer plus the towing vehicle. Unless the manufacturer of the towing vehicle dictates otherwise (some do, particularly motorhome converters), the maximum towed weight is then GTW minus MAM. So, if the converter's VIN plate shows, for example, MAM = 3,500kg, and GTW = 6,000kg (numbers 1 and 2 on the VIN plate), the max permissible trailer weight would be 6,000kg - 3,500kg = 2,500kg. Taking this combination, if you now uprate the van to, say, 3,700kg MAM, your max permissible trailer weight would reduce to 2,300kg (6,000kg - 3,700kg = 2,300kg). In UK, AFAIK, this is taken to mean the combination of the actual laden weight of the trailer, plus the actual laden weight of the towing vehicle. So, using the above example, if the van was actually loaded to 3,400kg, you could legally tow a trailer actually loaded to 2,600kg (assuming that weight is within its plated MAM). That would remain true even if the plated MAM of the trailer were 3,000kg, because it is the actual laden weights of both that are counted. Outside the UK, again AFAIK, it is the plated MAM of the trailer, plus the plated MAM of the towing vehicle, that counts. So, again using the above example, if you take van + trailer abroad, the maximum plated weight of trailer that your 3,500kg MAM van can legally tow is 2,500kg. You could not legally tow a trailer plated at 3,000kg even if it were only loaded to 2,500kg. Simpler, clearer, but more restrictive. It's a few years since I delved into this, so it would be wise to check whether the law has changed in the meantime. However, I am reasonably confident that the situation outside the UK remains correct. If you can't find a trailer that has a suitable permissible MAM for European use, remember that you could always get the supplier to provide a plate with a lower MAM in lieu of the standard plate (in which case, of course, you must not load above the new, reduced, MAM). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorT Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Brian Many thanks for a comprehensive answer. Of course I will check before relying on the information. By way of explanation for my question, I have a Series 1 landrover - and rather than buy a small car to tow I want to use what I already have. The landrover weighs 1290kg, and suitable trailers seem to weigh 500kg. So I want to tow 1800kg. The Elddis Encore 255 has a 2000kg towing limit. and the 450 kg payload is easily exceeded. So uprating to 2700 or 2850 kg is attractive. I have consulted SV Tek about that. Uprating to 2700kg and having the trailer restricted as you suggest to 1800kg might work. Will have everything weighed before committing myself. Don't want to find that the car actually weighs more than anticipated! Many thanks Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Then don't forget that the towbar itself will be heavy, further reducing your payload, and that the downforce on the tow ball necessary for trailer stability will be applied well behind the van's reax axle, meaning that the rear axle load will rise disproportionately as a result. I would suggest you check the rear axle load with the van as it is now, but in its fully laden touring state before yo proceed, as if it is already near its limit, the towbar self weight and towball downforce combined will be liable to take it over its limit, meaning the uprate will bring you no benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Trevor, To add to Derek's post above, a typical towbar for a coachbuilt MH will weigh something like 50 kg and the hitch load for a 1,800 kg trailer will need to be 5% or approx 90 kg. This weight will all be behind the rear axle and hence will add more than its self weight onto the rear axle. I estimate the 140 kg above will possibly add 200 kg to your rear axle. Do you have spare capacity on your rear axle for this? The SV Tech website actually has a calculator for just such a scenario to calculate the actual effect... http://lda2.svtech.co.uk/ Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorT Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Mmmmm, Yes you are both right. When we went off to Spain last winter we went to the weigh bridge. The results were 1400kg on the front, and 2100kg on the back. Not over the gross weight but overloading the rear axle. That was with a full water tank (100kg). The plate specifies maximums of 1800kg front and 2000kg rear. Of course the problem is to do with what we think we must have. For example this motorhome has a huge fridge - so guess what - everything from the house fridge goes into it. We also took (against my better judgement) 5 big bags of dried dog food. We are slowly getting better at only taking what we NEED, and I think that this will become less of an issue in future. However the comments on the weight behind the rear axle and the weight of the towbar are all relevant - and I had not taken them into account. I was coming to the conclusion that there was little to be gained by uprating in this case. The only benefit would be if the rear axle maximum load could be increased. I think for an extended trip it might be better to remove the travel seats temporarily from under the settees so that weighty items could be stowed further forward. Also the water tank is behind the rear axle - so I was thinking of using stand alone water containers under those forward bunks rather than travelling with much water in the fitted water tank. Water was only an issue when passing through France and many of the water supplies were turned off for the winter. I will think long and hard about this before acting! Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorT Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Error in there - 1400 front axle on the weigh bridge. Surprisingly low, and I was amazed it didn't adversely effect handling. Things were changed before we left to correct these weights as far as possible. (Original post corrected. Keithl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 Elddis 255 (2012) uprated to 3850. Semi air to rear axle, to get 2200 kgs for rear axle went fro 215/70/r15 to 225/70/r15. Front axle 1850 kgGives 6000 kgs Max gross train weight. weigh. My Towbar with side brackets weighs 46 kgs. Paperwork SV tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 How much did the semi-air suspension weigh? I've thought about it for stability, but does it reduce your payload significantly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted June 30, 2018 Author Share Posted June 30, 2018 From memory about 10 kg. I fitted the base kit, just top it up from a air line. Fitted the valves inside an external locker, say max 10 kg for the bigger tyres so extra 150 kg payload (had had the paper uprate from 3500 to 3700 at time of purchase, for 20 kg load. Gained 130 kg much more stable on the road when towing my trailer to France I'm around 5500 to 5700 kg all up considering when I bought this van the payload was pathetic, Elddis offered the 200 kg uprate at a no cost option which still left it low. We use our van a lot time you add in Sat dish, 2nd battery, 300 watts of solar, inverter, etc you soon are struggling to stay legal. Another point with this van the fresh water tank is sighted behing the grey water tank both behind the rear axle doesn't help with the rear axle loading. Although on long trips we only carry a minimal amount of fresh water, when wild camping we top up whenever we can. All in all pleased fitted it myself about an hour a side, just take care when working under your van and make sure the airlines are secure so they don't chafe or run near the exhaust. I emptied the van of all the clutter (leave off all the must haves that you never use) measure the height of the chassis to ground level fit the system load the van inflate back to the original height will give you a rough setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 Billggski - 2018-06-30 7:57 AM How much did the semi-air suspension weigh? I've thought about it for stability, but does it reduce your payload significantly? weldted - 2018-06-30 9:15 AM From memory about 10 kg. According to the marketing leaflet the Dunlop system weighs 12 kg so very close Ted. The kit for a Fiat X250 is on page 17 http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/pdf/DunlopAuxiliaryAirSuspCat_Ed5-4-r2.pdf I purchased my Dunlop kit from Marcle Leisure but note they are currently not trading so the Dunlop systems are available form Motorcaravanning.co.uk http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/dunlop_semi_air.htm PS The kit for a Mercedes weighs around 15 kg as it includes large chassis stiffeners. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorT Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 Thanks for posting that. Very informative. I agree with your comments on the tanks being at the rear. I was wondering if I could/should move them forward. There seems to be plenty of room under the chassis between the axles. So you now have 6000kg max train weight, and a max on the rear axle of 2200kg. So If I understand correctly that means that you can tow 6000 - 3850 = 2150kg. Have I got that right? Your information suggests that I might well be able to do what I want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bop Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 Billggski - 2018-06-30 7:57 AM How much did the semi-air suspension weigh? I've thought about it for stability, but does it reduce your payload significantly? (For info): I weighed the VB-air kit, excluding the compressor option, and it was 7.5kg. Cheers, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 In case of a two axle mobile standing level by a autolevel air suspension. And on four corners to check the standard ride height. loaden, the flwg came out: per tyre front R/L 70 kg delta. rear 80 kg delta. Per individual tyre. Up rating can be done by the producer new, or afther market, be aware of the consequences national- international. AND your identification of personal ID by a credit card form. or book passport. Be aware of the valid date, And renew in time, months before in summertime. Before you can enjoy your uprate. Cheers, and try to beat brasil, or your uk team in WC football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted July 1, 2018 Author Share Posted July 1, 2018 The 6000 kg all up is correct but I would weigh your van as if you were loaded for going away, before you start any mods, factor in weight of Towbar, semi air kit, extra weight of tyres, unladen weight of the trailer you are going to use. This will give you how much payload for the trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted July 1, 2018 Author Share Posted July 1, 2018 One further point don't forget to add to nose weight of the trailers effect on the vans rear axle loading, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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