Yet another battery question

[arthur49]

Boris - 2018-08-19 11:13 PM

 

Thanks Allan,, The battery was on the van when supplied new in January 2018 being a 2017MY. Guess it mst have come out of Swift factory as standard equipment. What would you suggest to rectify? I don't know if the VB is the same so will check tomorrow. Do I change batteries or the charger? I guess that the battery will be the easiest/better option.

Barry

 

I would check with Swift which battery is fitted as standard as dealer may have changed it.

We bought an Autocruise Rhythm in 2010 where the factory fitted battery had been swapped by the dealer for a different (and smaller capacity) battery. We never did get an explanation from dealer but suspect the original had died whilst van sat on forecourt waiting to be sold.

And that certainly was the case in February this year when we changed van. The standard fit Banner was changed for a Numax because the former died through neglect by dealer.

 

[Boris]

I'm considering that this may have been possible. However, I have spoken to Sargent who have sent me a tech sheet for the PX300 which seems to suggest that it can and will charge a AGM battery. Extract from the handbook is silent on this point. What Allan will love is Sargent's suggestion that if my LB appears on the NCC list bhen it will be OK!!!

As for the VB, it is huge and not like any car battery I have evver seen before. I have read forum posts which indicate that the Ducato does not have a smart alternator. I'm afarid that messing about tieh a multi-meter is beyond me.

Barry

[Brambles]

Afraid I am going to have to jump in here.

 

The Yu-power battery may not be the perfect choice of battery but it is certainly capable of being charged successfully by the charger mentioned. Its charge cyclic/boost voltage is 14.5volts (PX300 charge voltage is 14.4 so a slight safety margin there allows for rising temperatures).

The Yuasa float charge is 13.65 volts and the PX300 output is 13.6 volts.

 

This is a commercial quality battery with a life of 600 cycles at 50% dod. The varta flooded is around 200 cycles . With the Yuasa being available at about say 1.5 times the cost with 3 times the cycles its certainly a contender even if its life is reduced by alternator charging. to say twice the life. Bear in mind this Yuasa battery has twice the life of many AGM batteries. I have found this to be true in a few applications using Yu-power batteries and indeed a lot more than twice the life and more like 4 times the life of other AGM batteries.

Most AGM batteries for use in automotive applications require a higher charge voltage ( 14.7 or more volts) this limits the charge rate to an extent when using 14.4 volts from an altermator. The Yu-power YPC range charge pretty fast and I would be reluctant to have wired close to the alternator as could charge too fast, however with normal lead lengths and impedance of the wiring in leisure circuits, relays contact volt drops etc it should be fine.

 

Boris, I would stick with the Yuasa Battery and see how you get on. It will be very interesting to see how long it lasts before it starts to degrades. The beauty of it is you have a lot of usable power and can go to 80% dod rather than 50% with flooded and can occasionally take down to 100% and still get good cycle life.

 

The fact it may not charge fully because of volt drops in wiring is not too much of an issue, so you only reach 80% charge sometimes. That is OK as you still have more power available than a flooded and get better cycle life.

 

Allen, I think you may be surprised how good the Yuasa YU-power batteries are. Yuasa lead the way in AGM batteries especially when they joined forces with GS batteries many years ago and acquired their technology to add to their own.

 

Anyway, 'nuff said and is just food for thought for you all and my pennies worth.

Jon.

[aandncaravan]

Brambles, I don't think there is another person on the forums whose battery knowledge I respect more than yours, it is exceptional.

And yes I do know how good the Yuasa batteries are, having had a tour around one of of the factories where they make the Industrial batteries.

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our new mid range motorhome battery.'Best Buy'.

 

 

But you see things very much from a pure battery perspective. You see the perfect scenario that each battery is designed to be used under, not the very flawed mess that is in many motorhomes, even 2018 versions.

 

For example you write,

"Boris, I would stick with the Yuasa Battery and see how you get on. It will be very interesting to see how long it lasts before it starts to degrade. The beauty of it is you have a lot of usable power and can go to 80% dod rather than 50% with flooded and can occasionally take down to 100% and still get good cycle life".

 

 

Which makes no allowance for the massive extra loading such use will place on the charging systems. Motorhome chargers are not designed to bring up a battery from 80% DOD, let alone 100%.

Yes the old, legendary, Exide G80 Gel could be taken to 80% DOD and some of the chargers were designed for that. But ONLY because a Gel battery charges more slowly, taking much less current, so the overall load on a charger was actually less than a good wet battery dropped to 50% DOD.

 

 

Installing an AGM, that draws more charge current (greater charge acceptance) AND dropping them to 100% DOD is crazy and many chargers are already at their limits.

The Sargent PX300 has been around a long, long time, it has had no modifications to cope with the higher current draw of AGM's, let alone anything other than a Wet Acid charge profile. It wasn't even designed for Gel batteries.

 

You can see if you start drawing the higher charge acceptance of AGM's AND discharge two AGM batteries to 100% DOD there will be fireworks.

And to those clever clogs out there who say the chargers are 'current limited' so manage the load, there are limits. Stressing anything to a factor 4 times greater than design won't be a good idea, yet the PX300 is one of the better ones!!

 

For years Motorhome and caravan chargers have been just about the lowest technology in any 'battery' arena.

Even the 'latest' Sargent EC160 has a fixed 13.8v, 10 amp unit!!!! No multistage capability at all, let alone multi battery technology.

 

The biggest selling Leisure aftermarket charger last year was the Sargent 151, another hideous fixed 13.8v 10amp unit that backs down to around 6 amps once it gets hot and into 'overload'. If anyone gets 8 amps out of one they will be doing really well.

 

 

Wet batteries have been shown over the years to be incredibly tolerant of all charging scenarios. AGM's have demonstrated the exact opposite characteristic.

Not just mains charging either as the Alternator charging solutions on many UK built motorhomes is woeful. Have a look at the average Autotrail, Elddis, Bailey, Swift charging voltage and you will see many struggle to get 13.9v with a single battery.

Throw on a second battery with high charge acceptance and you will be better off with an AA battery.

 

 

Just lift the floor over an X250/290 Starter battery and take a look at the size of the cable from the alternator. Despite 180amp Alternators being more common see how spindly the FIAT standard wiring is.

A modern 2 litre Diesel draws about 220 amps to start the engine and has a very fat cable.

In the attached photo you will see the Starter Motor cable feed is massive. So how come a 180amp motorhome Alternator cabling isn't a similar size when voltage drop is ABSOLUTELY critical when it comes to charging?

 

 

We are talking here about Fiat's wiring, not Swifts, yet it is woeful in preventing voltage drop. Add into the mix the poor wiring installation work from Sargent, BCA, etc and it's worse.

But the biggest design flaw is that British built motorhomes generally take the Freezer/Fridge feed right from the habitation battery terminals, not the Alternator.

Along with the additional load of two AGM's taking more current than two 'wets' and the charging voltage at the Leisure battery can be as low as 13.9v. No AGM will like that.

 

Schaudt Elektroblock power controller units, as used by Hymer, take the Fridge 12v direct from the Starter battery and this results in much less voltage drop, typically only 0.2v.

 

 

For evidence of just how bad this actually is in Britain, look around at the huge number of Battery to Battery chargers installed out there.

It is a shame they actually address the wrong issue, boosting the voltage when all that is needed is sensible Fridge cabling, wiring, etc. not a £600 expenditure.

Another example of the products in the market place not understanding the issues?

 

While wet batteries will tolerate these low voltages, and still charge fast and full, AGM's won't. Even 'low voltage' YU's will charge MORE SLOWLY and take significantly longer than wet batteries.

 

That means they spend longer 'discharged', so sulphate, thereby failing to reach their potential.

The YU might have have a longer life in the laboratory but in a very flawed motorhome set-up it's a different picture.

 

 

Sorry Brambles but the Battery 'experts' in the industry have launched a product into the market place without doing their job properly and actually finding out how things work in reality. Too many assumptions.

 

Because of how things are, the best batteries are those that are tolerant, Deep cycling doesn't even make it onto my list, they just cause stress to the already poor environment.

 

 

One other point is that Golf Buggy batteries have very different chargers. They are generally low current, charging up the battery overnight rather than a 'fast' day charge.

This means the batteries designed for this very specific use are used very differently and more like the test environment of a laboratory.

 

 

The only advantage of AGM's in motorhomes, IMO, is their ability to absorb abuse on a dealers forecourt, which is initially concealed better but makes an appearance later.

 

In my view it is a battery for the motorhome manufacturer and dealer, not the owner.

 

 

 

Boris, to demonstrate the point about how little voltage gets from the Alternator to a pair of heavily discharged AGM's, we would be willing to do a free 12v electrical test on your motorhome along the lines of the test we suggested you carry out above.

We will even pay for your first nights stay at the campsite we work from, see : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/north-wales.php

 

A nice site with distant sea views.

 

It would take about 2 hours and you would need to be around for that time while I work as a 'witness'.

 

Let me know.

[Brambles]

Hi Allen,

You are wrong, I do not only look from a battery point of view. I have been involved in vehicle electrical systems a long time and know everything has to be taken into account and invariably is a balancing act. of many different aspects.

 

I am pretty sure many motorhome users take their flooded batteries way below 50% dod and probably do not realise, as many just use power until it runs out or at least starts to fade with no understanding or wish to understand exactly what is going on.

 

You make some good points and some are valid and others debatable...too much has been mentioned for me to have time to address every point. The Yu-power battery technology has been around many years and is not really a new product at all.

 

One thing I do not know much about is the reliability and quality (and specs) of many motorhome charger systems. I looked up the PX300 specs and it appears along with previous comments you have made a reliable system so should handle a deep discharged Yu-power battery, That does not mean it will be good for all AGM batteries. Sometimes the ability of a battery to charge fast with low charging impedance is not a good thing as it takes chargers to it's current limit and acts like a short on Alternators. All I am saying is a slower charging battery is often desirable but equally not one with big charging losses. A good three stage charger should not have an issue with most batteries but your experience of reliability of chargers is far more important than any specification sheet.

 

I look at every battery application individually as what applied to one sytem and user may not apply to another . Sadly there is not a combination out there that will be the best for all users at a sensible cost and will always be a compromise.

 

The next important thing is what happens when the battery fails. The Yu-power is calcium based and have never seen one with a cell fail short circuit but always high impedance so this protects the charging systems and the battery from overheating in battery fail conditions due to age and use.

[Derek Uzzell]

Boris - 2018-08-20 12:28 PM

 

...As for the VB, it is huge and not like any car battery I have evver seen before...

 

As far as I’m aware the starter-battery fitted to a current-model Fiat Ducato is neither particularly ‘huge’ (for a motorhome) nor anything special. The norm seems to be a black-coloured FIAMM-badged 95Ah or 110Ah wet-acid ‘maintainable’ battery.

 

As shown in the photo in Allan’s posting of 21 August 2018 8:44 AM above, there is a lot ‘stuff’ (“A” in the photo) perched above the battery’s positive terminal, but this has no effect on the battery’s type.

[plwsm2000]

I couldn't help noticing those two small red wires in your photo Allan,

It would appear they come straight off the positive battery terminal and so are not fused.

One of them almost touches the negative terminal.

A!though they are insulated, a bit of vibration could eventually wear through the insulation and create a dead short across the battery.

I am not sure where they go, but I would like to see an inline fuse if it were my van.

[aandncaravan]

It was just a picture I snatched off the web, but you are right it doesn't look good.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Brambles - 2018-08-21 9:18 AM

 

Hi Allen,

You are wrong, I do not only look from a battery point of view. I have been involved in vehicle electrical systems a long time and know everything has to be taken into account and invariably is a balancing act. of many different aspects.

 

 

Brambles, this reply isn't meant as a 'you are wrong, I am right argument', it is about trying to increase knowledge on the subject, something our website has always championed. See this web page as an example : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-charging-faults.php

 

I am losing my battle against Cancer, so I am working hard to pass on my knowledge before I go.

Please read this reply in that context, regardless of my 'headmaster' writing style, when you read it.

There is also another reason I am spending so much time on the reply, which you will get to later.

 

 

I didn't mean to suggest you didn't have extensive auto electric skills, apologies.

I know lots of people who work on vehicle electrics as their specialist role, but not one has any knowledge about motorhome leisure battery charging systems - The huge variety of mains charging systems deployed, how they are now so totally integrated, the very subtle nuances of Alternator charging or even the slightest clue on Solar and it's impact.

 

We don't know anyone who has more than a basic view of how a Motorhome/Caravan charger works, although they do usually understand how a Car battery charger works and a split charge relay.

For example most people believe, even one 'Technical' specialist at Roadpro we spoke to, that a Leisure battery charger will charge up a battery in 'Boost' mode until it is 'fully' charged and it then drops to a lower voltage 'Float/trickle/whatever'.

It doesn't, the difference is only subtle but the end result worlds apart.

 

Most leisure battery chargers (including many Solar chargers) charge for a set 'timer' period (typically 4 hours) and then drop to Float mode, regardless of whether the battery is fully charged or not. That results in a very, very different outcome in terms of battery 'charged state'. One might end up fully charged, the other still a discharged battery.

 

Lets take a typical German 18A charger, introduced around 2005 and still the basis of other units today. It is USED IN MORE MOTORHOMES WORLDWIDE than any other so very, very relevant.

It charges at 14.4v for just 60 minutes, then drops to 13.8v float voltage and low 'trickle' current

 

You can see that even at a theoretical 18amps charge rate (which it will never achieve for more than 5 minutes because it will get too hot) it will put a paltry max 17Ah into a fully flat 100% DOD battery and the remaining 93Ah will be put in at 13.8v along with a 'trickle' current.

Total charge time would need to be over 120 hours or MORE than 4 days on a Yuasa YPC.

 

 

In a scenario where the Leisure battery bank is taken to 90% DOD (only 10% left) and there are two 100Ah YPC AGM batteries, you can see charge times of 8 days won't be enough.

Obviously, batteries treated using Car Battery charging practise will never reach anything like their laboratory tested life capability.

A major reason we see AGM's with less than 18 months life, even the very most expensive AGM won't survive sulphation attack.

 

 

So in the above example which is far from unique, and there are literally hundreds of variations across the hundreds of chargers, the chances of someone putting the charger on for 'a day' hoping the battery will fully charge will probably suffer a sulphating battery if it is ever discharged deeply.

 

But it is worse than that because we know only a single motorhome charger that is specifically designed to bring up a battery from flat. That charger is the only one that has specific circuitry that will 'probe' the battery for it's state before it's charge process begins.

Most motorhome/caravan chargers will just fail under the strain or not charge the battery at all.

 

That is why all motorhome/caravan specific battery advice says to keep it above 50% DOD.

Trouble is, automotive 'knowledge' gets applied to motorhomes/caravans.

 

 

So why don't motorhome/caravan chargers work like Car battery chargers?

Because they are used differently, again the difference is subtle but the end result can be catastrophic.

There are people on this forum approaching their sixties who will remember every battery charger we ever bought in our younger days, said to remove the charger leads once the battery was charged. Don't leave it unattended for long, because of the risk of gassing/damage/explosion.

 

Caravan chargers became prolific when EHU started to be rolled out in the 1970's and caravans sat on EHU for weeks during a 3 week holiday. If one of these batteries faulted, and they usually did as people started off using old car batteries, the battery would never 'fully charge' so not drop down to the 'safety' 13.8v trickle charge.

So it continued to be charged at 14.4v for days, even weeks at a time and if you were lucky you would just be gassed with Hydrogen and Oxygen.

If you were not so lucky................

 

Some caravaning 'oldies' on here may remember the 'safety' campaigns that resulted, stipulating batteries must be located in lockers, trays, etc. Whose idea was it to put those great big Gas lockers on the front of the early caravans, and then put the battery in there with it? I guess it was better than in the habitation area though.

 

 

The charger industry responded by making chargers safer and specific to the requirement and usage by using safety 'timers'.

So why don't the 'technical specialists' in the magazines that advocate upgrading the charger, make absolutely no mention of this continued need, etc.

Or even an explanation of how a proper motorhome charger works?

 

 

 

 

YOU WRITE :

I am pretty sure many motorhome users take their flooded batteries way below 50% dod and probably do not realise, as many just use power until it runs out or at least starts to fade with no understanding or wish to understand exactly what is going on.

 

.

 

REPLY :

Yes they do and they just Pop, especially so if the battery bank isn't a supported size or the battery is tired. Just look at every Forum, from Swift to Hymer and search on 'mains charger failures', it is a huge problem. Logic suggests that every single motorhome/caravan charger from every manufacturer from around the World can't possibly be badly made, surely? So something is taking them outside their design.

 

Add into the mix a specialist AGM battery that not only sucks more current out of the charger and the risk of failure goes up again.

To tell someone it is ok to drop this particular Yuasa Golf buggy/industrial battery to 100% DOD and raise the charging load by doubling it even further isn't logical when it is documented so extensively their are issues.

 

 

 

A second example, and I suspect a reason Yuasa don't specify the YPC100 as a Leisure battery is because all the applications that Yuasa specify the battery for, have different charging systems again. These systems use charging currents optimised for VRLA batteries that would otherwise raise battery plate temperatures with the resultant short life. These batteries are designed to be discharged, using the long period overnight to recharge them ready for the next days use. There is usually a long, gentle recharge period followed by a lengthy steady load that replicates EXACTLY the battery testing carried out in the laboratory and an almost perfect scenario for this type of battery.

That will clearly earn it a very high 'cyclic rating that is unlikely to be realised in practise.

 

It clearly isn't how it will be used in a motorhome when Joe Bloggs runs his microwave for 10 minutes and raises the battery plate temperatures almost as high as the Chicken Balti; runs it down low over a period of 5 days before driving 6 hours across Spain at high charge rates and high temperatures.

 

VRLA Gel/AGM batteries have real issues with plate temperatures, just look at how Victron (in my view better than Yuasa for motorhome use because Victron are also REAL battery charger experts) show on their chart how an AGM battery can have it's life dropped from 7 years to 2 years, just by a 20 degree rise in plate temperature. That is a massive impact on VRLA battery life that is rarely documented or quoted as 'a disadvantage'.

 

The examples might be extreme, but motorhome 12v systems are being used in extremes compared to the 1990's. Not many people drove a Talbot from Glasgow to Portugal in several virtual none stop 8 hour sprints. The vehicle, and especially the seat would not allow it for one. Now it is done with ease, but that is a long time for an Alternators 14.4v to be 'floating' an AGM.

 

There are so many differences between the the optimum use of an AGM and the hammering it gets in a motorhome.

 

 

Maybe I am wrong but think these two things demonstrates how important it is that anyone giving battery advice understands, in great detail, the whole picture.

And that is where I want to ask you a favour? You are more capable and knowledgeable than any one I know in this area.

I might have sounded like a Head master telling off a pupil, but it isn't meant like that. That's just me. When the cancer takes me away, the joined up knowledge I have acquired will be lost.

 

 

Will you please think about expanding your charging knowledge, or maybe proposing/working with someone else on the forum?

Your battery skill is second to none and while Martin our charger repairer is continuing our company and maintaining the web pages, he is semi retired and can't take on my old 'role'.

 

Please have a good think about the idea, the guys on here know I am no one special, but through sheer experience and work have acquired a stack of knowledge which is uniquely integrated. No one else pulls together motorhomes, battery charging and batteries like we have.

Please help find a way of keeping that going?

Even if the contribution is just to feed Martin the odd correction to the web pages because we have it wrong or things have changed, it would be huge benefit to all.

 

Sorry if I am not being fair, but you have helped so many people in the past I know you are a good guy.

 

 

YOU WRITE :

You make some good points and some are valid and others debatable...too much has been mentioned for me to have time to address every point. The Yu-power battery technology has been around many years and is not really a new product at all.

 

 

 

REPLY :

I didn't say it was new, I know full well AGM's have been around years, but this is a new application for AGM's. It is only since about 2014 that the battery industry have specifically targeted the Caravan and motorhome arena and they haven't looked in any detail how they are really being used.

 

 

YOU WRITE :

One thing I do not know much about is the reliability and quality (and specs) of many motorhome charger systems. I looked up the PX300 specs and it appears along with previous comments you have made a reliable system so should handle a deep discharged Yu-power battery, That does not mean it will be good for all AGM batteries. Sometimes the ability of a battery to charge fast with low charging impedance is not a good thing as it takes chargers to it's current limit and acts like a short on Alternators. All I am saying is a slower charging battery is often desirable but equally not one with big charging losses. A good three stage charger should not have an issue with most batteries but your experience of reliability of chargers is far more important than any specification sheet.

 

 

REPLY :

Trust me I would never put the Sargent PX300 in anything other than the budget category. As I think I state in one recent thread, 'it is about the lowest spec charger we would recommend anyone considers'.

 

 

YOU WRITE :

I look at every battery application individually as what applied to one sytem and user may not apply to another . Sadly there is not a combination out there that will be the best for all users at a sensible cost and will always be a compromise.

 

 

REPLY :

I understand that, but strange how many people put 2 + 2 together ...........

 

 

 

YOU WRITE :

The next important thing is what happens when the battery fails. The Yu-power is calcium based and have never seen one with a cell fail short circuit but always high impedance so this protects the charging systems and the battery from overheating in battery fail conditions due to age and use.

 

 

REPLY :

 

 

I can't agree with you more, the way a battery 'fails' is it's absolutely most important characteristic in a motorhome. One we have championed for a long time.

However, once again, I suspect the automotive experience and the resulting disaster that can occur in a motorhome, is very different.

 

Because their 'automotive' use usually ceases before they actually 'fail', i.e. the Stop/Start electronics will flag to the car ECU that the battery is losing capacity, they are replaced in the vehicle long before they actually die and before plate break up takes place.

In a motorhome users tend to run a battery right to the very last. A bit more on that subject later.

 

Derek Uzzell may remember us documenting exploded AGM batteries, it created quite a discussion on the forums some years ago. Maybe as far back as 2014?

 

Because AGM's only operate within a very narrow window of temperature, charging and usage (as already discussed) when they fail in a motorhome it can be horrific, almost always taking the charger with them.

The way they fail, IMO, makes them the most dangerous battery to fit inside a motorhome by a very long way.

AGM batteries are more prone to thermal runaway. They break down and get hot. the heat makes them break down faster and the subsequent faster breakdown generates even more heat, so they breakdown even faster.

The resulting destruction of the plates, and we have cut open some where the charger failed before explosion, is astonishing. The resulting debris, we think, then blocks the valve.

Boom.

It's makes heck of a mess, not just the damage from the lumps of plastic, but the acid destroys so much.

 

 

Of course those people who are experts say these are the best technology battery to fit under the Passenger seat............ NOT.

 

Better still, you can mount it on it's side, which you can imagine will result in the safety venting valve becoming blocked earlier..........

 

Mount it inverted and the valve, at the top of the battery now sits at the bottom and blocks even sooner, very rapid route to explosion. However, because explosion takes place a bit earlier it sometimes results in less acid around the habitation area.

 

The vehicle we saw with a CTEK car battery charger fitted "that can be left permanently connected" was one of the worst we have seen. One lump of plastic was almost the entire end of the battery casing and was embedded through a kitchen door. I honestly think it would have taken off a leg if someone had been in there, yet the van was just 10 months old.

 

 

 

I said I would write more on the subject of motorhome owners, in our experience, they typically use batteries right to the very end.

They are used to a Starter battery being 'past it' when it won't start an engine, which is usually before the total break up of the plates.

They maybe apply the same thinking to the habitation area battery knowing it's dead when it won't power the lights or the charger keeps blowing up, alternator burning out, etc.

 

If the owner has spent £650 on a pair of batteries, they will really want value for money.

To find another £650 (especially for someone who may have only recently bought the vehicle s/h and wants like for like) is a huge barrier to replacing them.

So it tends to be the expensive AGM set-ups that suffer the most serious battery explosions.

Another reason why we think expensive deep cycle batteries are not good news, apart from the disappointing real world lifetime.

 

 

In my opinion, any company that recommends an AGM leisure battery inside the habitation area should be prosecuted. To say it can be mounted on it's side or inverted should get a life sentence, if you saw the damage we have seen it would break your Heart to see and listen to the owners.

The battery industry clearly haven't given it even the slightest bit of research.

 

 

Are you beginning to see a pattern here on just how just subtle different use of a battery can be and the outcomes so different?

So if I put you in the category of those looking at battery usage from it's 'Paper Spec', not real usage.

 

 

[Boris]

Oh dear - I fear an apology is in order as I seem to have inadvertently started something here which was never intended or envisaged. It was just Allan;s remark about not having EHU on permanently powering PX300 on a YU-POWER battery. Over 40 years of caravanning and running classic cars, I became paranoid about batteries going flat when car/van was not used daily. All our wheeled units had Optimate battery conditioners fitted and had their fluid levels checked and topped up weekly. NOT ONCE did we ever have a car fail to leap into life at first push of button or turn of key. Much to the envy of my friends who felt my Optimates were a waste of money. Our first two Mohos had EHU chargers for the LB only which I supplemented by wiring in a CTEK for the VB. With the purchase of a new Swift Bolero we acquired smart charging for both batteries so continued to leave EHU active whenever van was not in use. I have been happy with this for 7 months - until I read Allan;s warning -hence my cat having been thrown into the pigeons.

Allan's offer is exceptionally generous and much appreciated. BUT Is it really necessary? Brambles says not and it seems that Swift have been knocking out Kon--Tikis, Rios, Escapes and Boleros )with Command) for a few years now without either MMM or Swift forums being flooded with failure complaints. Our van is unlikely ever to be used off-grid so will my present set up and usage not work well for the foreseeable future? If the YU=POWER Fails, then replacing with a new YUASA wet-flooded battery would not seem the end of the world. Either that, or it might not fail at all Brambles suggests. I am in awe of the knowledge which both you gentlemen possess, but I am looking to be practical here and therefore practical advice would be welcome please. I guess there are hundreds of owners out there in the same boat as me and blissfully ignorant of whether they are doing right or wrong.

My apologies again for delay in responding, but as Allan will understand, hospital appointments do mess up one;s normal routine!

Thank you again,

Barry

[aandncaravan]

Brambles, the last line should have read,

"So sorry if I put you in the category of those looking at battery usage from it's 'Paper Spec', not real usage".

 

 

Boris/Barry, no problem at all, I was just hoping to use your vehicle as a Guinea pig model to show how the voltages the battery manufacturers think are being applied to AGM batteries are well awry.

Because you don't go offgrid or discharge the battery much at all, the AGM battery will hardly get used. If you are lucky you have 2 - 3 years before battery life issues arise and if you are only ever on EHU you are unlikely to ever have issues from the battery only being 85% charged by the Alternator.

 

 

Maybe some other owner might fancy a free motorhome 12v test diagnostics session?

 

 

 

You are obviously clued up on the need for ultra low long term storage float charging of batteries (not to be confused with ordinary short term 'float' voltages) if you employed the Optimate.

As you probably know it maintains a perfect battery manufacturers recommended 13.2v long term float voltage.

Additionally half of that time it is 'on', it is actually 'idle' deciding it's next move. Every now and again it will wake up and tune the battery. Very like the Victron chargers with 'Storage float' for long term motorhome battery maintenance and the same 13.2v storage float.

 

The Optimate is a very nice piece of kit and the best possible way of maintaining any battery that is long term 'idle'. Definitely not to be confused with the lesser competition that don't work half as well.

 

Note that for your motorhome, when battery manufacturers talk of Float voltages, it is almost all the short term float, not permanent 'storage float' charging.

Yuasa quote a storage float of 13.2v for most of their industrial batteries that sit permanently on charge in data centres, etc.

So I would guess that the YPC's 13.6 float is not a storage float voltage and that just as Classic car starter batteries never last long on the 'usual' quoted 13.8v Float, your AGM's will suffer on 13.6v long term, but time will tell.

 

 

 

I have added the chart that I missed off the last post showing how just 20 degrees rise at the plates drops an AGM's life from a claimed 7 years to just 2 years.

[Boris]

You make this sound like an opportunity not to be missed.We have a NE and Yorkshire tour planned and booked starting from Monday 16th September with first stop pff at Newark. We can leave earlier and travel up to CMC site at Chapel Lane arriving late pm and then drive up to LLandudno Friday. This could give us all day there Saturday and then leave Monday 16th to drive back to Newark and the original plans. We shall have 3 nights at LLandudno but we do not expect you to cover any of the costs here (we insist on this)

Would this timetable work for you?

 

Barry

[aandncaravan]

Yes that works for me, I will PM the details.

If you get there early enough on the Friday I will come up to you then, I don't mind 'working' early evening on this, that will give you all the weekend to see the area.

 

Please take a look at the Campsite 'Local attractions' page as there is so much to do in the vicinity and further out to Snowdonia, etc. http://www.tanybrynfarm.com/local-area.php

 

I think the site charges £14 a pitch, so we can argue about who pays when you turn up.

 

I am guessing that you have not read the web page on 'Long Term EHU', because it contains info from the Yuasa web site on this very subject, quick extraction below -

 

 

The Yuasa web site states : "Batteries used in these (long term float) applications should be changed every 2 years or more frequently.

Continuous charging, even from a well-controlled charging system, will result in internal degradation of the battery. This could result in the battery not giving its predicted output when required even though the battery appears to be fully-charged.

Ensure that the battery is always kept in as high a state-of-charge as possible without causing excessive overcharge".

 

 

[Boris]

Thanks Allan, Do we book the site direct? IYour comment re permanent EHU usage does cause me concernof course as it is against my normal instinct, Even changing to a new Yuasa L36-EFB won't overcome this then will it? Any suggestions here/ My old habits ans paranoia could be an issue for me here!

Barry

[aandncaravan]

Yes, book the site direct, it is nothing to do with me, they are just a really lovely couple, David and Karen, who let me work from there. Many sites won't let technicians work from them.

 

 

The Sargent ECxxx unit you have is fairly easily able to have Heart surgery.

Not hard to remove the Sargent PX300 'standalone' charger' and wire up another that is both a much better charger and has a low 13.2v 'storage' charge feature. It is even optimised for AGM charging capability (Aaargh, sorry I had to wash my mouth out then). (lol)

 

That isn't work I can do because of my illness, but easy enough for your own 'local' man to carry it out when you get back home.

 

I will run through the options with you so it is easier to get it all sorted after your 'holiday', if that is what you then decide to do after a ponder.

 

 

Not sure I made it totally clear in the offer, but just need to confirm you are happy to ratify the test results and for me to publish?

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

aandncaravan - 2018-08-17 10:09 PM

 

rupert123 - 2018-08-17 9:12 PM

 

I have to disagree about Tanya, brilliant service and very fast delivery plus good prices.

 

I can't disagree about the pricing and delivery, but mis describing batteries as they did in Alan I's email is not brilliant service.

 

 

 

 

Picking up again on the original Post and comments about Tayna, the customer below ordered two batteries from Tayna specifically specifying they must be a matched pair. When one arrived almost flat, and clearly degraded. One subsequently turned out to be manufactured in 2017 the other had no date. He took it up with them but they were "unhelpful" so he contacted Exide, response on that here -

 

"I phoned Exide customer services in the UK. He told me they had several of these batteries in stock from a few days old up to 3 months. He also said the 12.26 V battery was not fit for purpose and should be rejected. We both agreed Tanya pulled one over me by sending one new one and one they had been holding in stock for a very long time.

This explains the old style label and the low Voltage. Both batteries have now been returned to Tanya and I await a full refund. When I told him about the AH rating he stated it was 100 AH but then he checked the technical spec and agreed there was an anomaly and something was wrong. He said he would take the matter up internally and I have not heard from them since. Tanya denied they had sent an old battery from stock but the guy I spoke to said we have none in stock and these were sent directly from the manufacturer but prior to placing the order I was told they were holding one in stock. So Tayna have been found out on this occasion. I still want these batteries and will try again towards the end of the year".

 

[aandncaravan]

This thread started with someone worried that discharging their two Habitation area batteries down to 50% seemed to place a big load on the charger when charging them back up, as the charger seemed to run flat out for a while.

A reply came in on a slightly different subject, saying it was ok to use AGM batteries which will try and draw even more charge current and load up the charger even further.

They also advocated that taking AGM's down to 80% DOD, creating a further loading on the charge, was also 'OK'.

 

 

You can see there is an anomaly.

 

We responded saying AGM batteries don't work in motorhomes for all sorts of reasons, not just the above, but primaryily because the typical motorhome environment is alien to their design.

 

 

To demonstrate this, I offered Barry/Boris a free 12v diagnostic check on his new Swift built motorhome so we can build a 'Real World' example test case that will demonstrate how the charging voltages at the Habitation area batteries are no where near the 'theoretical' voltages the industry think are being achieved.

 

With the flawed charging conditions in a motorhome, most AGM batteries will not have the '£200 super life' the industry promise, potentially also damaging the charging systems.

 

 

Barry/Boris is now not sure if/when he wants to take up the offer and because of my Cancer, time is short and I can't delay.

So I am asking any one with a late model British built Motorhome to help us with this.

 

We will carry out the check for free and pay for your first nights stay at the Campsite we work from near Llandudno. I am happy to work around you and do it at the start/end of a weekend so you can turn it into a 'mini break'. See : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/north-wales.php

 

We won't change anything on the vehicle, just take real world charging voltage readings while you ratify the recording of them. Not in an artificial workshop environment, but on a real campsite.

 

Obviously I need to publish the results but you will have 'editorial control' over everything except the figures which obviously need to be as recorded.

 

It needs to be a late model vehicle to ensure 'age' related issues don't distort the results, like tarnished connections, etc.

 

Anyone who can help, please email aandncaravanservices@gmail.com

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

I am sorry, but I really had to post this from the Roadpro/Banner website -

 

"Banner Running Bull AGM batteries are NOT suitable for use as leisure batteries in motorhomes or caravans. They are designed specifically for use as engine starter batteries for START/STOP vehicles with regenerative braking systems".

See : https://www.roadpro.co.uk/catalogue/02b03-banner-running-bull-agm-batteries

 

 

Some people may remember that it was this exact same battery that Hymer bought in vast quantities to roll out as Leisure batteries and we reported multiple premature failures and even explosions.

 

Others may be aware they are NCC verified as being in the 'Best Category A' section for Leisure batteries.

 

 

[arthur49]

Well done Allan .....

 

Incidentally the C&MC magazine Sept 18 page 114 contains an article headed "Leisure battery choice".

 

I won' t go into the ins and outs but, of the NCC scheme C&MC states "Our view is that this scheme has been effective in improving matters .......... [the scheme] verifies capacity by averaging six full charge-to-full-discharge tests .... "

 

So C&MC are still supporting the NCC Scheme though no detail is given about who does the tests above

[aandncaravan]

Arthur, thank you.

As the 6 'cycle' test is specifically mentioned in our 'assessment' of the NCC, someone is watching what we write and defending.

 

That is a good sign they feel they need to!!

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

aandncaravan - 2018-08-29 7:39 PM

 

Arthur, thank you.

As the 6 'cycle' test is specifically mentioned in our 'assessment' of the NCC, someone is watching what we write and defending.

 

That is a good sign they feel they need to!!

 

 

 

 

Arthur, thank you again for the Info, I have just been emailed a scan of the page you speak of.

While they do still support the NCC verified scheme, for the first time EVER, there is advice to actually avoid AGM batteries!!

So they ARE reading/listening to our campaign page.

 

 

The article states something like :-

 

"In general, it's probably best to avoid AGM batteries unless you are absolutely sure your charger is suitable, as the otherwise excellent performance counts for little if the performance is compromised through damage by inappropriate charging".

 

 

That warning has never before been published by a magazine/club. Even last months MMM big battery articles promoted two AGM's without any warning on charger suitability.

 

 

Hopefully that will change and the NCC front page will also start warning people about AGM's?

Another success.

 

 

Thank you, I might have missed that if it wasn't for you

 

 

This is one man off to bed now, VERY happy. :-D

 

 

[aandncaravan]

aandncaravan - 2018-08-26 8:59 AM

 

This thread started with someone worried that discharging their two Habitation area batteries down to 50% seemed to place a big load on the charger when charging them back up, as the charger seemed to run flat out for a while.

A reply came in on a slightly different subject, saying it was ok to use AGM batteries which will try and draw even more charge current and load up the charger even further.

They also advocated that taking AGM's down to 80% DOD, creating a further loading on the charge, was also 'OK'.

We responded saying AGM batteries don't work in motorhomes for all sorts of reasons, not just the above, but primaryily because the typical motorhome environment is alien to their design.

 

 

To demonstrate this, I offered Barry/Boris a free 12v diagnostic check on his new Swift built motorhome so we can build a 'Real World' example test case that will demonstrate how the charging voltages at the Habitation area batteries are no where near the 'theoretical' voltages the industry think are being achieved.

 

With the flawed charging conditions in a motorhome, most AGM batteries will not have the '£200 super life' the industry promise, potentially also damaging the charging systems.

 

 

Barry/Boris is now not sure if/when he wants to take up the offer and because of my Cancer, time is short and I can't delay.

So I am asking any one with a late model British built Motorhome to help us with this.

 

It needs to be a late model vehicle to ensure 'age' related issues don't distort the results, like tarnished connections, etc.

 

 

 

Today we got our chance to take some charging voltages from a 2018 model Rapido with CBE equipment installed. The CBE installation usually performs better than many other charge/controller systems, so a good 'Test Case'.

 

 

The customer has asked for a second AGM battery to be installed alongside the awful Platinum AGM already in situ at the back of the vehicle under the fixed bed.

 

 

The vehicle has Solar, a poor installation in several ways which was charging the AGM habitation battery at a constant 13.8v. No provision for Solar charging of the Starter battery which was sitting at 12.9v.

 

 

With the Fridge off totally, we started the engine.

The Alternator just about raised enough charge to the habitation battery to increase it by 0.1v to 13.9v

Starter battery charging went up to 14.4v confirming a good working Alternator.

 

 

We then activated the Fridge on 12v to create a 'normal driving' scenario and the load caused by the Fridge/Freezer resulted in the Starter Battery charge voltage dropping 0.2v down to 14.2v.

The habitation battery charge also dropped to 13.8v.

13.8v is the exact same voltage used by mains chargers to 'trickle' charge a battery.

Engine revs were increased slightly to maximise alternator output. No change to the charge rate.

 

These are typical 'real world' voltages at the batteries in a real travelling situation.

13.8v is a long, long way off the 14.7v AGM's require.

Very different to the theoretical 14.4v the industry perceive takes place.

 

 

Clearly, even a wet acid battery with it's legendary high tolerance to a variety of voltages is not going to charge quickly or fully from this Alternator set-up.

 

A pair of AGM batteries down at 80% Depth Of Discharge will never get fully/fast charged even on a continuous drive down to Sicily.

Adding a second AGM battery will create even greater loads, potentially dropping the charging voltages further with subsequent slower charging.

 

 

The CBE kit was installed ok, but the wiring/connectors were woefully undersized by Rapido, yet still twice as good as most UK built motorhomes.

 

 

Tip :

If you Deep discharge a pair of habitation batteries down to 80%, the load created may result in a voltage drop so high, the batteries may hardly charge at all compared to a shallow discharge load had been placed on the Alternator.

 

Increasing the battery bank size doesn't always increase the battery Ah capacity, unless you stay within the limits.

 

 

We would advise the best operation is to stick to quality, efficient wet acid batteries, like the Yuasa L36-EFB and Varta LFD90, and discharge to a MAXIMUM of 50% DOD, ideally only 30% for the best compromise between usefulness and life.

 

 

Voltage is the key to good charging, the optimum is to load the alternator as light as you can for maximum charging. Think of it as MPPT Solar charging.

 

Maybe even leaving the Fridge 'off' for the first 10 miles of the journey to eliminate its load on the wiring.

Avoid AGM batteries.

 

This page has some idea/tips at the bottom to help optimise charging times, particularly if you wish to raise the battery bank size, see the last section : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php

 

 

 

[arthur49]

aandncaravan - 2018-08-30 12:14 AM

 

aandncaravan - 2018-08-29 7:39 PM

 

Arthur, thank you.

As the 6 'cycle' test is specifically mentioned in our 'assessment' of the NCC, someone is watching what we write and defending.

 

That is a good sign they feel they need to!!

 

 

 

 

Arthur, thank you again for the Info, I have just been emailed a scan of the page you speak of.

While they do still support the NCC verified scheme, for the first time EVER, there is advice to actually avoid AGM batteries!!

So they ARE reading/listening to our campaign page.

 

 

The article states something like :-

 

"In general, it's probably best to avoid AGM batteries unless you are absolutely sure your charger is suitable, as the otherwise excellent performance counts for little if the performance is compromised through damage by inappropriate charging".

 

 

That warning has never before been published by a magazine/club. Even last months MMM big battery articles promoted two AGM's without any warning on charger suitability.

 

 

Hopefully that will change and the NCC front page will also start warning people about AGM's?

Another success.

 

 

Thank you, I might have missed that if it wasn't for you

 

 

This is one man off to bed now, VERY happy. :-D

 

 

No problem Allan

[Derek Uzzell]

aandncaravan - 2018-08-31 9:20 PM

 

...Today we got our chance to take some charging voltages from a 2018 model Rapido with CBE equipment installed. The CBE installation usually performs better than many other charge/controller systems, so a good 'Test Case'.

 

The customer has asked for a second AGM battery to be installed alongside the awful Platinum AGM already in situ at the back of the vehicle under the fixed bed...

 

Allan

 

Was it ever explored why the 2018 Rapido motorhome had a Platinum AGM battery under its rear bed?

 

I could understand Rapido installing under a fixed bed a habitation battery that required no venting, but - if Rapido did do this - I would not have anticipated that the battery would be Platinum-branded.

 

Historically Rapido has remained faithful to Banner when factory-installing habitation batteries and, consequently, if Rapido had fitted an AGM or gel battery, I would have expected that battery to be a Banner product.

 

It’s been reported in the past that, when a Chausson dealership receives a motorhome, the vehicle will have no habitation battery pre-fitted. The dealership then has the responsibility for choosing an appropriate battery that will meet the eventual buyer’s requirements or wishes.

 

However, as far as I’m aware, a Rapido motorhome has always had at least one habitation battery in place when it has left Rapido’s factory in France and that battery has always been Banner-branded.

[spirou]

So the cables going to habitation battery are 0.5mm2 or what? How can it possibly drop so much? Mine are anything but ideal but nowhere near so bad