Autotrail laying off staff

[Derek Uzzell]

It would be interesting to know if RHD Benimar “Benivans” and RHD Chausson “Twists” will, in future, only be built at the Auto-Trail factory at Grimsby, or will also be built at their ‘home’ factory in respectively Spain and France.

 

If (as seems to be suggested above) the Grimsby-factory workers are financially incentivised to complete motorhomes as fast as possible resulting in sub-standard quality, UK buyers might then wish to opt for Spanish-built Benivans or French-built Twists rather than the UK-constructed versions.

 

It might also be worth knowing if UK-built Benivans and Twists are ‘kit’ motorhomes, with major conversion elements (eg. interior cupboards, furniture and panelling) being imported to the UK and just 'dove-tailed’ together at Grimsby.

[goldi]

Good morning

 

The motorhome industry is a booming industry, there must be something wrong with the company or the product

[John52]

Deneb - 2018-11-02 8:48 AM

 

John52 - 2018-11-02 7:34 AM

 

paulmold - 2018-11-01 3:36 PM

 

Could it be that after pension rules were changed lots of new pensioners took their lump sum and spent on such items as motorhomes and new cars. That boom has perhaps come to an end and sales are dropping to former levels.

 

Good Point. The Government made it Tax free to cash in a lump sum out of your pension early to give the economy a pre-election shot of heroin. But we are paying for it now.

 

Just been reading that the equity release market in the UK stood at £3.06 billion last year, a 47% increase year on year since 2011. That must run out eventually too, with little in the way of inheritance for many offspring to look forward to!

 

According to the front page of the Express, people have cashed in a record £5.7bn from their pension pots so far this year. The figures come from HM Revenue and Customs and suggest people are "starting to treat their retirement nest egg as a bank account", the paper says.

It comes after Osborne's scheme to give the economy a temporary pre-election boost by loosening up pension rules in 2015.

[Derek Uzzell]

NCC-provided statistics relating to new motorhome registrations can be found here

 

https://www.thencc.org.uk/our_industry/statistics.aspx

 

These cover the period 2000-2017, so there are no data on what’s happening now.

 

I’m tempted to think that the following comment by Dave Thomas (Auto-Trail’s managing director)

 

"When Brexit was voted for the date was way in the distant future, now the closer we get, and the mixed messages of what it will mean, is making our customers very nervous. While they still have money, and many are retired or partly retired, they are holding back, they don’t want to spend.”

 

is valid and that, while people might be splurging using their pension pots, they will be wary in the present political/financial climate of spending their money on "diesel-powered, non-essential luxury items” like motorhomes. But that's a rational view ...

[baden87]

i note your comment regarding Dave Thomas (Auto-Trail’s managing director, but what does he propose doing , just sitting back and doing nothing could lead to a further demise , he needs to be acting and coming up with ideas , doing what he is paid to do MANAGE

[Derek Uzzell]

I assume that’s a rhetorical question, as I’m not privy to what Dave Thomas is doing management-wise.

[baden87]

derick

clearly not enough if he's laying a lot of employees off

not sure rhetorical is the correct grammar for this situation

[Brock]

When the last recession hit all those years ago, caravan/motorhome manufacturers drew in their horns, battened down the hatches and survived. We saw them reduce staff and slash the product list. Once the uncertainty becomes certain, AutoTrail is well placed to take advantage of the opportunities. It has production capacity and should easily adapt to manufacturing other models for the group.

 

As for quality of product, we have been buying poorly built motorhomes in the UK for over 20 years to my knowledge. With less production pressure, AutoTrail has the opportunity to explore better build standards. It is not easy building a quality product at a cost customers are willing to pay.

 

I visited a Caravan Manufacturer in the mid90s to look at its quality control system. It was able to plot the number of defects, the impact on sales, the cost of faults and the income from sales. The fewer the defects, the higher the sales until it reached a level where increased sales stalled because the quality of the product was taken for granted. Costs rose significantly when it was only getting small gains in quality. Increasing the prices to cover costs led to a fall in sales for what was a better product. Unfortunately, the manufacturer did not have a magic wand that ensured all output was high quality and low cost.

 

Somewhere there is a price that people will pay for a near perfectly built motorhome. In 2005, for me it was £13,000 [i think] being the price differential between my new Hymer and a similar UK built van.So was it worth it? No. Not unless I wanted peace of mind. Financially, it would have bee better to buy the cheaper van by about £400pa of ownership. Costings are from memory!

[Randonneur]

We have a 2007 Auto-Trail Tracker and are the second owners, very pleased with it, have had it for nearly 3 years and couldn't be happier, so not all Auto-Trail motorhomes are bad... We had a Laika, the garage was like a shower, wet through, you could wring the walls out. First motorhome was a Rapido and the back delaminated on the body. After the Laika we bought a Pilote and we were very pleased with that one, only reason for sale was that when we came back to the UK we thought it was too big for the UK roads, each to their own.

[stagger321]

baden87 - 2018-11-03 12:12 PM

 

derick

clearly not enough if he's laying a lot of employees off

not sure rhetorical is the correct grammar for this situation

He's not alone though is he?

Its not like other UK based manufacturers are booming in the current no-Brexit-deal-yet (if at all) predicament.

Yes, there have to be contingencies, but there is a limit to what an UK based Motorhome manufacturer can do in the current climate.

I'm sure he'd welcome other proposals from you. Clearly if quality is not there as others have indicated, then that is something to work on, but even if it was class leading now, it would have little positive uplift in sales until Brexit is nailed down - one way or the other.

 

BTW, The comments on the prev page about JLR only making Diesel is not correct - they make and sell the i-PACE. Selling this actually puts them in front of the competition in that they have the worlds first award winning BEV SUV.

Saying that they have most of their eggs in one large basket with diesel would be more accurate statement. Brexit and diesel-gate have therefore hit them real hard.

[Rayjsj]

Bop - 2018-11-01 7:11 AM

 

The writing has been on the wall for some time.IMO

 

The company has continued to knock out vans with such poor build quality that it was only a matter of time before the customer said "enough is enough".

 

Totally agree, nothing to do with Brexit, and ALL to do with a noticable drop in quality of the product.

 

I have owned 2 Autotrails and still own one from 2014, its good NOW, after 3 sets of opening windows have been replaced, and a serious leak from the roof...luckily, very luckily i had a good understanding dealer CLV of Crosshands. And happy with it now.

But can understand why folk are not buying them.

Sad to say but they REALLY need reliable robots to assemble them, that, and Japanese style of quality control systems.

Autotrails upto 2007 or 2008 were fine, and well put together.

[John52]

Rayjsj - 2018-11-03 12:46 PM

they REALLY need reliable robots to assemble them,.

Are there any motorhome manufacturers producing sufficient volume to justify the expenditure on robots to assemble them?

[baden87]

I think my point is everything that is manufactured will have faults , this is where quality controll comes in , the bad products should not reach the end user , the customer is the dealer who should reject them if they are substandard, instead , (from my experience) they tell you to make a list of all the faults , before taking it back for rectification work , I kid you not ! So now we are the unpaid quality controll

[MikenKath]

Another from the silent majority (in my oppinion) we bought our second motorhome in 2015 a tracker rs and are very happy with it,the few issues we have had were bought in parts,it is well used and cared for and we consider it a quality product that is our home from home.

[Tracker]

baden87 - 2018-11-03 2:33 PM

 

I think my point is everything that is manufactured will have faults , this is where quality controll comes in , the bad products should not reach the end user , the customer is the dealer who should reject them if they are substandard, instead , (from my experience) they tell you to make a list of all the faults , before taking it back for rectification work , I kid you not ! So now we are the unpaid quality controll

 

Sorry, can't agree with that, except the unpaid quality control bit - although given the depreciation and repair bills it is hardly unpaid - except it's us paying them to test their goods!

We have had several cars over the last ten years and NONE of them have ever developed a fault.

We have also had some domestic appliances that have given years of totally fault free service.

So we only buy brands we expect we can depend on not brands that are known to be troublesome.

Add to that the uncertainty about the future of diesel, although nobody has come up with a viable alternative as yet, and the really amazing surprise is that anyone buys a new van at all with so much uncertainty and such dubious build quality.

[baden87]

I have several new cars and not one of them has had to go back for anything , I’m sure they make some , we the customer don’t get them, QC must pick them up BEFORE they are dispatched

Anyway my original point was if they (Autotrail) do nothing to try to find out from market research why people are not buying , and address the problems ,it could be to late to recover

[flicka]

But Dave Thomas will also have to do as the Trigano group board dictates.

Despite the upturn in motorhome sales over the last few years, if dealers are not placing forward orders, it would be poor management to continue producing more motorhomes than forward sales indicate. Dealer may be holding back for the same reasons he stated, but also cash flow management.

However with the recent investment by their parent Trigano, shoulc the market swing at the February NEC they should be in a position to respond.

So it appears to be prudent management in uncertain times IMHO.

[Guest pelmetman]

Rayjsj - 2018-11-03 12:46 PM

 

Bop - 2018-11-01 7:11 AM

 

The writing has been on the wall for some time.IMO

 

The company has continued to knock out vans with such poor build quality that it was only a matter of time before the customer said "enough is enough".

 

Totally agree, nothing to do with Brexit, and ALL to do with a noticable drop in quality of the product.

 

I have owned 2 Autotrails and still own one from 2014, its good NOW, after 3 sets of opening windows have been replaced, and a serious leak from the roof...luckily, very luckily i had a good understanding dealer CLV of Crosshands. And happy with it now.

But can understand why folk are not buying them.

Sad to say but they REALLY need reliable robots to assemble them, that, and Japanese style of quality control systems.

Autotrails upto 2007 or 2008 were fine, and well put together.

 

I still have the hand written snagging list from when my FIL returned Horace to Marquis ;-) .........

 

I don't have it to hand but I think one leaking window, and a stiff cab window winder were top of the list 28 years ago :-| ........

 

 

 

 

[baden87]

I went on a visit to the Autotrail factory back in 2007 and there were no robots that I saw , (which is different to car industries), all where being made by humans , maybe that’s different now

[Guest pelmetman]

baden87 - 2018-11-03 5:17 PM

 

I went on a visit to the Autotrail factory back in 2007 and there were no robots that I saw , (which is different to car industries), all where being made by humans , maybe that’s different now

 

Humans made my camper in 1990 ;-) .........

 

Things were less complicated back then B-) ...........

 

Maybe that's the difference now :D ..........

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

baden87 - 2018-11-03 5:17 PM

 

I went on a visit to the Autotrail factory back in 2007 and there were no robots that I saw , (which is different to car industries), all where being made by humans , maybe that’s different now

 

Although motorhome/caravan production is more mechanised nowadays, robotisation as used in the car industry is just not practicable.

 

This 2016 link

 

 

shows motorhome construction at the Challenger/Chausson factory in France and, although cutting and manipulation of material is mechanised, the build process itself still relies exclusively on human labour as there’s no realistic alternative.

[Steve928]

I think Bailey have made it tough for all the other UK manufacturers. Selling 6000 units in 6 years into the UK market (and continuing to innovate with new ranges every 2 years) must have had a major impact on the others' sales figures. They (Bailey) seem to be able to sell everything they can build so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more headlines of this type.

[PCC]

I tend to agree with Flicka. There is a lot of uncertainty at the current time.

 

No matter what our masters tell us - no return to boom and bust; march of the makers; etc - the domestic and indeed world economy tends to cycle between boom and recession on a surprisingly consistent basis. We can expect some sort of downturn every seven to ten years. What does vary is the depth of the downturn and whether it turns into a recession; and this is often impacted by decisions made for political or commercial reasons. Investment in sub-prime loans; removal of tax relief for mortgages; unrealistic expectations of the value of dot.com businesses being some.

 

Now we have a market distorted by changes to pension rules and we have Brexit.

 

You can't blame Autotrail, a foreign owned company, for being cautious about the market in the UK, and as they are French you might expect them to be more protective of their French interests than their British interests.

 

That doesn't excuse quality problems if they are not in line with industry expectations although even benchmarking can be dangerous and lead to a chase to the bottom. Moving telecoms customer support to India and Africa has reduced costs but not necessarily won customers and some companies have moved support back to the UK.

 

Finally, going back to JLR, I understand that the I-pace is not actually built by Jaguar but sub-contracted to Steyr in Austria.

 

We shall see what happens.

 

Peter

 

[stagger321]

I also agree with Flicka.

Its painful to have to lay off staff or reduce hours, but in the current climate a prudent business decision.

I would argue this won't be the only case of layoff in any homegrown manufacturer, and I would also include Bailey in that. They may have sold everything they have made in the past, but people are holding off on buying new expensive goods - not just motorhomes, and this will affect ALL the market.

 

@PCC - Its off topic, but you can't imply the iPace is a Magna product mate - not a Jaguar. It was designed/developed in Warwickshire. Magna make cars and vans for most of the European Automotive sector, including my current Peugeot. Its common across the industry (in which I work btw). It doesn't make it any less a Jag, or have differing quality - as JLR employees will be part of the QC on the line.

 

The vast majority of the components in a Sunderland Manufactured Nissan Leaf for instance will come from abroad, which is btw why Brexit is a concern and why all manufacturers in the UK are sweating more than a little and if necessary taking sensible actions like Autotrail and JLR. The fools are the ones with their heads in the sand carrying on regardless.

[PCC]

Thanks Stagger

 

I hadn't realised how much is made by Magna (I knew about the G-Wagon but not about Peugeots, BMWs etc).

 

I understand Nissan, Toyota, Honda assemble kits of parts but it would be nice to see as much as possible actually made in this country. That applies to Dyson too - vacuum cleaners and electric cars!

 

Peter