23addy46 Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Hello and good afternoon to you all - This being my first entry to the forum, i hope this isn't to deep ? Any help please, to assist in help reduce the 'Black Smoke under load' that has effected our 2.3 mj Fiat Ducato Maxi E695 Bessacarr owned from new reg Aug 2009. (Late 2008 mfgt).Current milage 22495. rr E695 for past 5 mths ? The engine starts ok from hot or cold - it idles steady at approx 800 rpm (hot or cold), When full throttle applied the exhaust is clean untill it reaches round 3500 rpm when a large clound of black smoke blasts out of the exhaust befroe clearing again when held at 3500 plus revs ? Oil (Full Synth 5 / 30) changed 12 mthly, Filter every 6 mths. NO dash board warning lights have shown. Items checked by myself :- Air filter - New K&N fitted (but even without a filter it smokes the same). Checked for mice / blockage in curved plastic inlet pipe below the filter - none ! I have checked the gear box to chassis earth strap - full continuity showing. I have checked but not found any splits / tears in the turbo hoses. No apparent leak from below the intercooler. The AGR valve appears to be 'moving ok'. The Solenoid valve (scutlle mounted) WAS split and detached from the RH (from front)) rubber pipe - cut back and refitted without any difference noted ! Other than having the Fiat Gearbox Modification at new, a split fuel filter replaced (in France) plus new timing belt kit (March 2017), it has been 'mechanically trouble free' apart from the weird 'lights wiring problem' caused by the Fuel Pump Flap Tounge chaffing (as reported by me in MMM letters a few years ago)... From new it has always had 'sluggish throttle responce under load', before the turbo kicks in ? Having only our old 1998 2.8 id. Swift Royal Ensign SE to compare it with, i just put it down to the smaller engine moving a heavier load ! Average fuel consumption (always towing our 'Tow Bars 2 Tow Cars' Peugeot 107 averaged 21.5 MPG during the above 2498 mile visit around Spain / France . My own 'code checker' showns 'no codes found' - So Iveco Walton Summit where asked to perform "An official dignostic test" the report stateing "Carried out road test found when vehicle under load on initial gear change vehicle would black smoke set up witch(?) 2 faults reparted(?) P104 air flow meter adapted at idle high - P105 under body, checked injector reading all ok checked basic wiring checks to air flow. recomend new air flow. The requested print out reads as follows ;'Examiner Emulator' control unit as BoschEDC16C39 CF4/EOBD Diesel Injection(eng.2.3/3.0) - Then below the Errors detected by the control unit - P0105 - Air flow meter adaptat.compensat. (eng. under load) Intermitant - Above target value. P0104 - " " " " " (eng. at idle) Present - Above target value Under heading :- Parameters - Cyl 1 to 4 fuel correct - Target Air Mass - 262 mg/injec. Air mass measured - 529 mg/injec. They reccomended changing the Air Flow Meter (at £445.00).- BUT when questioned as to this being the cure of the Blacjk Smoke ? - was told "Oh no, we cant guarantee that, could be other things need doing as well"? At this statement, I wasn't prepared to write out a blank cheque for them, so paid the £114.00 diagnostic charge and left ! From reading 'old threads', I wish I was closer to Leicester rather than living here in the 'Central Deserts' of Lancashire ? Thank you all in great anticipation... Take Care.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 Welcome, No doubt the experts on here will be able help, but if not you could try another forum...... https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/ Good luck. B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 23addy46 - 2018-12-03 3:42 PM ... Air filter - New K&N fitted (but even without a filter it smokes the same). Have you tried fitting a genuine Fiat air filter? Over on the Sprinter forum general advise is that 'oiled' K&N filters are very bad news for the MAF as the oil from the filter is drawn into the MAF and contaminates the workings. Most MAF's use a hot wire principle to measure air flow and oil contamination is not good for them. Also the K&N's filtering efficiency is nowhere near as good as a genuine filter, I did once see a graph showing how bad they really are. To me K&N is all about marketing over efficiency! Just my thinkings. Keith. PS You would be well advised to drop an email to Nick Fisher who writes for the technical pages in MMM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 Hy - thanks for your reply- Re the filter , yes i have used an original O.E (Mann) type filter that was in use when the smoke issue started - also the new K & N filter is of totaly dry cotton construction, further as i noted in my letter - even when tried / used without any filter in the filter housing is still smokes exactly the same ? Re your suggestion to email Nick Fisher , would you consider directing this geriatric ex mechanic towards contacting the 'Lord of Leicester' please ? Many Thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 23addy46 - 2018-12-03 7:09 PM Re your suggestion to email Nick Fisher , would you consider directing this geriatric ex mechanic towards contacting the 'Lord of Leicester' please ? Many Thanks.. Unfortunately I believe the email address given in his profile is no longer valid as it was his business email for the business he has just closed down. Is there a contact address in MMM? (I don't have a copy to hand). Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Keithl - 2018-12-03 6:35 PM ...Also the K&N's filtering efficiency is nowhere near as good as a genuine filter, I did once see a graph showing how bad they really are. To me K&N is all about marketing over efficiency!... There are various on-line discussions about the benefits (or otherwise) of ‘high performance’ air filters over the OEM version, including this 2009 one https://nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html but that certainly doesn’t mean that, in 2018, a K&N filter designed for a Ducato will have a negative effect on the vehicle’s performance or anything else. Forum-member “veletron” has fitted a K&N filter to his 2015 Ducato and I’ve fitted one to mine. I've not noticed a resultant improvement in my motorhome’s performance, but neither has there been a performance reduction or any problems like David’s black smoke. K&N air filters are made to be cleaned rather than be replaced, and the cleaning procedure includes treatment with an oil - so there is the potential for oil contamination. But that should not happen with a new filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Hello, I am still around, and the email address in my profile is still valid and will remain so. I will go dark for a few days; probably from Thursday this week while i move my office stuff to home and get everything set up. With regard to the problem at hand, it sounds most likely to be a defective throttle body or possibly a wiring fault. You might wonder why a wiring fault could be behind something that seems speed or rev dependent but the air flow meter will perhaps be getting incorrect readings when the profile of data that it is expecting changes at higher load/revs but be perfectly happy with nonsense at lower engine speeds. On the other hand, if the throttle body is not opening properly this may be generating the soot and the ECU will be opening and closing the EGR valve like crazy and may assume that the airflow is incorrect. In the first instance, do a simple test. Without starting the engine, switch the ignition on so that all of the lights on the dash are on. Turn the ignition off and move to the front of the vehicle. After 15 to 20 seconds there should be a clear sound of the throttle body closing. This will indicate that at least electrically all is well with it but it still may be limited in it's movement. Your vehicle almost certainly has the older type TB and these do fail, normally sooner than this. The later body is unimaginably better and when it is replaced you will notice improved throttle response and better fuel consumption so even if there is a doubt over whether it is defective or not; it is a very worthwhile upgrade. Don't worry folks, my business may be gone, and i can't do any work for you any more but i will still be here. N PS. K&N filters do need to be oiled after cleaning but the oil dries on the element before it is re-inserted. There is little to no chance of any contamination. The Ducato set up is one of the least oily that i have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 Hello and good evening Mr Fisher... First, im very sorry to hear you have had to close down your business it can't be a pleasant thing to have to do, and wish you the best of luck in 'picking up the pieces'. Then, thank you for your suggestion re my problem that for some reason - readers appear to have picked up as a 'Air Filter' related problem - deff not so ! - Re your 'ignition on/off test' -yes the Throtle Body is 'clicking off', accompanied by a buzzing noise that appears from the solenoid valve?, this also stops with the T.B. off ? Having a full diagnostic by the Ivico dealer would i thought have provided a conclusive answer, however this wasn't the case, and as stated - I wasn't willing or able to give a 'blank cheque' to try various new parts in a cure attempt - Something (before full diagnostics) 40+ yrs ago we where instructed to do when I was still 'on the spanners' ! . May ask of you a guide to labour times related to replaceing (A) the Air Meter Valve - and (B) a new Thottle Body Kit ? I ask this as the (Ivico dealer) quoted £370 00 (+vat) to replace the Air Meter Valve (which as you know isn't a difficult swop) and included "its re-programing" ? - & © From your vast Ducato experience and 'hear say' - can you offer any trustworthy source around my area of Leyland, Lancs.PR25 to help me achieve satisfactory results - as i really have lost faith in the Ivico Truck dealer... Again i wish the very best to you, thanks for any advice. Dave Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23addy46 Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 Hello All - Further to my initial 4th December "Black Smoking Bessie" enquiry, Yesterday I had the problem fully cured by the very enthusiastic & knowledgable team of SPECIALIST DIESEL ENGINEERS @ 'ALCO DIESELS', Unit 8-10 Gilbert Place, Burscough Industrial Estate, Ormskirk, Lancs. L40 8JU. (01704) 807830, This, following a meeting with owner Mr. Alan Gibson to discuss the Ducato's problem and following visits to 4 (No.) other 'Diesel Specialists', who failed to impress when questioned technically?... Alan Gibson's straight forward answers to all my questions were further confirmed with his "Chapter & Verse" problem and cure description of the Nissan diesel car problems that initially prompted my 'check out' visit, and after reading an 'on line review' from a "finally satisfied customer" that 2 (No.) other 'Diesel Specialists had failed to cure'. This, plus the fact they run an Iveco Daily Van (same 2.3 Fiat engine) gave me the confidence to proceed with them... They successfull completed replacement of the original (duff) German Wahler(?) Throttle Body & Bosch Mass Air Flow Meter with new Magnetti Marelli Throttle Body & Conversion Cable (Pt. 504351131 + 504388760) plus new Bosch Mass Air Flow Meter (Pt. 0281006048) within commendable 2.5 hours... Being (& growing by the day) a cynical old 'ex spanner man', I am most impressed with both attitude & service from this small team of dedicated, very enthusiastic Diesel Engineers (Cars, HGVs / Farm Vehicles, FLTs etc.)... At this point I will offer my greatfull thanks to all the site contributor's, with especial mention to Mr Nick Fisher (euroserv) for his knowledgable information , IN THAT HIS DIAGNOSIS WAS SPOT ON ! - and following his business closure, offer him the very best wishes for the future... Finally - compared to the £928.00 'Main Dealers' quote to replicate the above, my final spend saved me a whopping 56% off that price quote ! - Me purchasing the genuine new parts locally... WITHOUT ANY RESERVATIONS, I CAN FULLY RECOMMEND THE SERVICES OF THIS COMPANY TO ANY DIESEL ENGINE'D VEHICLE OWNER... THANK YOU ALAN & THE TEAM... Mr Dave Adams, Leyland, Lancs ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Unbelievable of just that service. Real diesel engineers to cure black smoke and power loss. Happy- You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 23addy46 - 2019-01-29 4:28 PM Hello All - Further to my initial 4th December "Black Smoking Bessie" enquiry, Yesterday I had the problem fully cured by the very enthusiastic & knowledgable team of SPECIALIST DIESEL ENGINEERS @ 'ALCO DIESELS', Unit 8-10 Gilbert Place, Burscough Industrial Estate, Ormskirk, Lancs. L40 8JU. (01704) 807830, This, following a meeting with owner Mr. Alan Gibson to discuss the Ducato's problem and following visits to 4 (No.) other 'Diesel Specialists', who failed to impress when questioned technically?... Alan Gibson's straight forward answers to all my questions were further confirmed with his "Chapter & Verse" problem and cure description of the Nissan diesel car problems that initially prompted my 'check out' visit, and after reading an 'on line review' from a "finally satisfied customer" that 2 (No.) other 'Diesel Specialists had failed to cure'. This, plus the fact they run an Iveco Daily Van (same 2.3 Fiat engine) gave me the confidence to proceed with them... They successfull completed replacement of the original (duff) German Wahler(?) Throttle Body & Bosch Mass Air Flow Meter with new Magnetti Marelli Throttle Body & Conversion Cable (Pt. 504351131 + 504388760) plus new Bosch Mass Air Flow Meter (Pt. 0281006048) within commendable 2.5 hours... Being (& growing by the day) a cynical old 'ex spanner man', I am most impressed with both attitude & service from this small team of dedicated, very enthusiastic Diesel Engineers (Cars, HGVs / Farm Vehicles, FLTs etc.)... At this point I will offer my greatfull thanks to all the site contributor's, with especial mention to Mr Nick Fisher (euroserv) for his knowledgable information , IN THAT HIS DIAGNOSIS WAS SPOT ON ! - and following his business closure, offer him the very best wishes for the future... Finally - compared to the £928.00 'Main Dealers' quote to replicate the above, my final spend saved me a whopping 56% off that price quote ! - Me purchasing the genuine new parts locally... WITHOUT ANY RESERVATIONS, I CAN FULLY RECOMMEND THE SERVICES OF THIS COMPANY TO ANY DIESEL ENGINE'D VEHICLE OWNER... THANK YOU ALAN & THE TEAM... Mr Dave Adams, Leyland, Lancs ... Excellent. Thank you for posting the outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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