Stays in Schengen area post Brexit

[aandy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-22 3:55 PM

 

I'm going to suggest following this link; http://tinyurl.com/hmrp9uy and reading, in particular, the sections on the Parliament, the Council of the European Union, and the Commission, which are the three EU bodies with legislative function. The democracy is there. It is inevitably complex, but one has a directly democratically elected parliament, a Council comprising the democratically elected government ministers of each state, and Commissioners who are appointed, one per state, by their individual democratically elected governments. Democracy is the common thread that runs through it.

 

Unfortunately for us, our media hardly ever report what is going on within any of those institutions (or the others, for that matter) unless there is a row of some sort to report. We thus get a very distorted view of what goes on.

 

This lack of reporting also gives our government ample cover to bury legislation liable to prove unpopular at home, because if it does prove unpopular, the EU can be blamed for the measure. This has cynically happened on numerous occasions, the most outrageous instance, IMO, being the ongoing (and sadly successful) blaming of freedom of movement for the large and continuing influx of EU migrants that commenced under Tony Blair - when almost all other EU states imposed totally legal, fully compliant, restrictions on numbers for seven years. This became the root cause of the many referendum votes against remaining in the EU because freedom of movement "prevented" the UK controlling immigration.

 

The link certainly clarifies the roles of the various bodies but I'm not sure that it dispels my concern, which was around the issue of secondary legislation. Obviously, all governments delegate part of the law making function to the executive, but it has always been my understanding that the EU parliament delegates rather more to the Commission than the UK parliament does to our own civil service. I found nothing there to suggest otherwise

 

Something I did learn, which both surprised and perturbed me, is that the EU parliament cannot propose legislation, that being to sole prerogative of the Commission. What didn't come as too much of a surprise was that the structure closely resembles the German model ;-). In short, I'm still left with the feeling that, however little my vote currently influences the direction of government, it would be quite meaningless in a United States of Europe. Then again, perhaps it's just the scale of the thing that I find daunting.

 

Regarding your final paragraph, it is indeed ironic that free movement is so frequently blamed (or credited, depending on your viewpoint) for the outcome of the vote. Not only we have the seven year option, which Mr Blair so graciously waived, but the principle applies only to those coming to work. That it appears to have been interpreted as allowing unfettered immigration is solely down to the UK government.

 

Andy

[spirou]

Not sure how much you're following the current situation in Hungary but how is this for irony:

They're trying to compensate for worker shortage by changing labour laws to increase allowed overtime to 400h per year (essentially 6 day work week), and give companies 3 years to settle the payment for that overtime. At the same time they're doing their best to keep every non native out of the country. Something tells me the jobs targeted by this are primarily those that require low skill and people who might be interested are probably aiming for a better paid equivalent job somewhere else.

 

Anyway, watching it on the news I was reminded of the NHS discussion earlier on. It is an issue in nearly all EU countries.

[Brian Kirby]

aandy - 2018-12-22 5:38 PM...…………….The link certainly clarifies the roles of the various bodies but I'm not sure that it dispels my concern, which was around the issue of secondary legislation. Obviously, all governments delegate part of the law making function to the executive, but it has always been my understanding that the EU parliament delegates rather more to the Commission than the UK parliament does to our own civil service. I found nothing there to suggest otherwise...………….Andy

Except perhaps that it requires approval of both Parliament and Council for any legislation to be enacted, which means that each country gets two bites at protecting its interests.

[aandy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-22 7:07 PM

 

Except perhaps that it requires approval of both Parliament and Council for any legislation to be enacted, which means that each country gets two bites at protecting its interests.

 

For primary legislation, yes, but is that the case for secondary legislation enacted by the Commission under delegated powers from parliament? Neither the link you provided nor others within it are entirely clear on that point, but it appears to me that such legislation does not have to go back. As I said before, I have no problem in principle with delegation, but I am concerned about the extent to which (I believe) it is used.

 

Andy

[Bulletguy]

spirou - 2018-12-22 6:07 PM

 

Not sure how much you're following the current situation in Hungary but how is this for irony:

They're trying to compensate for worker shortage by changing labour laws to increase allowed overtime to 400h per year (essentially 6 day work week), and give companies 3 years to settle the payment for that overtime. At the same time they're doing their best to keep every non native out of the country. Something tells me the jobs targeted by this are primarily those that require low skill and people who might be interested are probably aiming for a better paid equivalent job somewhere else.

 

Anyway, watching it on the news I was reminded of the NHS discussion earlier on. It is an issue in nearly all EU countries.

Yes it was reported on Channel 4 news here the other night and this was their report. Well worth watching but listen carefully to the point mentioned in the last 25 seconds.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/thousands-protest-over-slavery-laws-in-hungary

 

I wonder if Mays proposed immigration policy chimes anywhere with the present Home Secretary?

[Wortho]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-23 2:39 AM

They stopped stamping passports years ago. However each passport entry and exit is electronically recorded so Danish immigration would easily have been able to pull your records up if they wanted to.

The trouble is the only place I was asked to produce my passport was at entry and exit at Copenhagen airport and none of the other countries I visited as I just drove through the borders in a van registered to my Swedish brother in law so there would be no record of me even being in the other EU countries.

[spirou]

Wortho - 2018-12-22 4:36 AM

 

I offered to show ferry tickets to Germany etc to prove I had left Denmark but didn't seem interested. They finally let me through but said next time I need to show an itinerary of intended travel which didn't make sense to me as I could make anything up.

So I figured I would renew my UK passport to prevent future issues but it sounds like I might not be any better off and probably better to visit a non Schengen country to get my passport stamped. I did an almost identical trip the previous year with a short trip to the UK and no issues because the UK stamped my passport.

 

This is an interesting dillema. If they only accept electronic passport records, rather than receipts in your name etc. they're basically forcing you to go outside schengen on your trip, cross a staffed border post where you insist on having your passport recorded (good luck finding one on most inner borders), or take a cheap flight somewhere. :-S Or, as you seem to have been told, print out a random guided bus tour itinerary?!?

[Bulletguy]

Wortho - 2018-12-23 3:38 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-23 2:39 AM

They stopped stamping passports years ago. However each passport entry and exit is electronically recorded so Danish immigration would easily have been able to pull your records up if they wanted to.

The trouble is the only place I was asked to produce my passport was at entry and exit at Copenhagen airport and none of the other countries I visited as I just drove through the borders in a van registered to my Swedish brother in law so there would be no record of me even being in the other EU countries.

Assuming you had a mobile phone with you (as most do nowadays) time and date of entering a border is logged on those. My phone isn't anything fancy and not even a smartphone but logs that info whether it's switched on or not. GPS also logs data as to where you've been. Both these devices are common to millions of people and without folk realising they provide electronic tracking. In fact the only way to 'disappear' from authorities for whatever reason is to smash your mobile phone....but don't forget to destroy the sim card as well!

[Brian Kirby]

Wortho - 2018-12-23 3:38 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-23 2:39 AM

They stopped stamping passports years ago. However each passport entry and exit is electronically recorded so Danish immigration would easily have been able to pull your records up if they wanted to.

The trouble is the only place I was asked to produce my passport was at entry and exit at Copenhagen airport and none of the other countries I visited as I just drove through the borders in a van registered to my Swedish brother in law so there would be no record of me even being in the other EU countries.

To the Danish immigration officer, you will have looked like a "third country" entrant who had overstayed his 90 day limit. If the bi-laterals (with which an average border guard may well not be familiar) you refer to give specific permissions for Australian passport holders to extend their stay in Schengen, I suspect there must be some further requirement for the second tranche of 90 days to be formalised, possibly requiring the passport to be stamped to that effect. I think it would be worth your while to dig into the bi-laterals to see what they require to formalise agreement for the extended stay, and to check what other conditions there may be. The other thing that might be worth checking is whether some marker has been electronically applied to your passport that might result in you being refused entry to Schengen in future.

[Wortho]

Thanks for the replies. I had an Australian mobile so each time I visited a new country I got a text message warning me of roaming charges etc. I did offer to show these messages but the officer was not interested even though she said she was aware of the bilateral agreement between Australia and Denmark.

 

I also contacted the Australian Embassy in Denmark for advice and they just sent me a link to the following site https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-GB/You-want-to-apply/Short-stay-visa/Visa-free-visits

There appear to be no special requirements other than the usual means of support requirements but it does state the following....

You can substantiate, and, to the required extent, document the purpose of your stay in Denmark.

 

Hopefully as you say Alan I won't be refused entry next time if a flag has been placed on the system. I will get in touch with the Danish embassy in Canberra for advice.

 

Cheers

 

[Bulletguy]

Wortho - 2018-12-24 12:12 AM

 

Thanks for the replies. I had an Australian mobile so each time I visited a new country I got a text message warning me of roaming charges etc. I did offer to show these messages but the officer was not interested even though she said she was aware of the bilateral agreement between Australia and Denmark.

Then you did all you could....probably enough to satisfy them.

 

As you probably noticed we have another Australian poster, Gary (Geeco) who posts occasionally on the forum. Also here is a link to another couple from Oz i met some years ago in Albania. http://www.travelbunyip.com/

 

As you will see from their blog they've traveled extensively in Europe. I think Ewout possibly has dual nationality as he's Dutch but Jenny is Australian. Worth dropping them an email.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-12 6:47 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-12 3:52 PM..................Brian....did you look at the Schengen Calculator posted by Cattwg last night? That works it all out including multiple trips and tells you if you are outside the limit or within. It's worth putting sample dates in just too see how it works.

Yes, but I don't trust it! I've also being playing with the official "Schengen calculator" here: http://tinyurl.com/y8y6mb29 which gives different answers, but as I cannot understand its logic, I don't understand why the difference arises. The instruction manual is also badly written, so not much help. If anyone can understand what it is doing, I'd be grateful for an explanation! :-D

If everyone hasn't yet given up hope of EU travel, I thought I'd try to refine the instructions for using the Schengen calculator linked above. Covid boredom! :-D

 

As above, the "official" manual is a heap of ordures when it comes to explaining the functioning of the calculator, which is, itself, a bit "clunky".

 

A number of people commented that they found the instructions unclear. I have re-worked them to try to make them clearer (at least to me! :-)), but please bear in mind that what follows is no longer the "authorised text". N.B. There is no section 5 in the original, it too progresses from 4, straight to 6!

 

I have taken the worked examples below into the calculator to verify that it gives the same results as in the manual, and it does.

 

USER MANUAL FOR THE SHORT-STAY "SCHENGEN" CALCULATOR

 

1. Introduction

 

Regulation (EU) No 610/2013 of 26 June 2013, amended the Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement, the Schengen Borders Code and the Visa Code and – among others – re-defined the concept of "short stay" for third-country nationals in the Schengen area1 which is a fundamental element of the Schengen acquis.

1 http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/index_en.htm

 

As from 18 October 2013, for the vast majority of third-country nationals – irrespective of being visa required or exempt – who intend to travel to the Schengen area for a short stay (as distinct from residing in one of the Member States for longer than 3 months), the maximum duration of authorised stay is defined as "90 days in any 180-day period ……..". "The date of entry shall be considered as the first day of stay on the territory of the Member States and the date of exit shall be considered as the last day of stay on the territory of the Member States. Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States."

Contrary to the definition in force until 18 October 2013, the new concept is more precise by setting the duration in days, instead of months. Moreover, the term "from the date of first entry" which gave rise to many uncertainties and questions (especially after a judgment of the Court of Justice of the EU from 2006 (Case 241/05 "Bot)) has been dropped from the provision.

The notion of "any", implies the application of a "moving" 180-day reference period, looking backwards at each day of the stay (be it at entry, or on the day of an actual check) over the last 180-day period, to verify if the 90 days / 180-day requirement has been fulfilled.

 

Among other changes, it means that an absence for an uninterrupted period of 90 days allows a new stay for up to 90 days.

Stays in Bulgaria, Croatia, Ireland, Romania, and Cyprus shall not be considered as they are not (yet) part of the Schengen area without internal borders. At the same time, the non-EU Member States Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland are in the Schengen area. Stays in these countries will be considered when assessing compliance with the 90 days / 180-day rule.

The length of stay of non-EU citizens traveling with a visa issued in accordance with the visa facilitation agreements between the EU and certain third countries will be calculated according to the new calculation method, as there is reference in these agreements to "90 days per period of 180 days".

 

2. The short-stay calculator 2

 

To help understanding of the 90 days / 180-day rule, a calculator has been developed for the general public and for the Member States' authorities. The calculator is a helping tool only; it does not confer a right to stay for periods resulting from its calculation. The Member States' authorities (in particular the border guards) will implement the provisions and make a decision on the length of the authorised stay or overstay.

 

The calculator has been extensively tested before making it available for the public; nevertheless, irregularities cannot be excluded. Efforts have been made to limit these to the minimum. It is a JavaScript programme and, in principle, its use neither requires any further programmes installed on your computer, nor internet connection. Opening the programme needs only a web browser (e.g. Explorer, Mozilla, Chrome) though.

 

The calculator deals only with the 90 days / 180-day rule. In case of visa-obliged third-country nationals, the length of authorised stay will be clearly stated on the visa sticker, and may be less than 90 days (which is the maximum that can be granted). Additionally, authorised stays must be used within the validity period of the visa. The calculator does not alter the validity of stays authorised on a visa sticker: if this is shorter than 90 days within 180 days the visa takes precedence.

 

Based on previous entry and exit dates the software calculates whether or not the third-country national will fulfil the general 90 days / 180-day rule, and can give projections for the maximum length of future stays based upon an intended date of entry. Holders of short-stay (C-type) visas should therefore also check the validity of the visa and the number of days authorized as indicated on the visa sticker.

 

If a Schengen State has concluded a bilateral visa waiver agreement with a third country of the so-called "positive visa list" (like Canada, New Zealand or the US) before the entry into force of the Schengen Agreement (or the date of its later accession to the Schengen Agreement), the provisions of that bilateral agreement continue to apply. The CISA provides for a Schengen State to extend a visa-free stay beyond 90 days in its territory for the nationals of the third country concerned in accordance with such an existing bilateral agreement. Thus, for example the nationals of Canada, New Zealand, US, etc. – depending on the continued application of the agreement by the Schengen State - may stay in such Schengen States for the period provided by the bilateral visa waiver agreement in force between the two countries (generally three months), on top of the general 90 days stay in the Schengen area. Article 20(2) of the CISA only provides for the Schengen States to apply their "old" bilateral agreements for such extension, but this is not an obligation. No algorithm could be developed in the calculator to take into account this possibility.

 

3. How to use the calculator?

 

The date of the entry into force of the new definition of short-stay (90 days in any 180-day period) is 18 October 2013. The definition implies looking 180 days backwards: the calculator cannot be used for stays spent earlier than that. Therefore, the calculator cannot consider entry and exit dates earlier than 22 April 2013. Should they be inserted, an error message will be given, stating the following: "The date of entry into force of the "new" definition of "short stay" is 18 October 2013 and therefore the calculator cannot be used for entries/stays earlier than 22 April 2013 (i.e. 18/10/13 minus six months). The calculator does not support calculation of entries/stays earlier than 22 April 2013. The "old" definition applies for such entries/stays ("3 months in 6 months from the date of first entry)."

 

The calculator has two functionalities.

 

In "Control" mode it calculates the length of previous and/or on-going stays and provides an answer whether the stay of the person complied/complies with the 90 days / 180-day rule (on the day of control), by responding whether or not the 90-day limit is exceeded within the relevant 180-day reference period. If the rule is respected the calculator notes that there is "No overstay in the registration period." In addition, it also indicates the last day of stay complying with the 90 days / 180-day rule ("Possible stay until dd/mm/yy"). If the rule is exceeded the calculator indicates the number of days spent in the 180-day reference period ("Days of stay in the 180-days period dd/mm/yy to dd/mm/yy: x day(s)") and also notes when the overstay occurred ("Possible overstay in the period from dd/mm/yy to dd/mm/yy (x days)").

 

The objective of the "Planning" mode is to provide information on the maximum length of stay allowed in the future. This date is to be introduced as a date of entry to the top left hand box – "Date of entry/Control:". Depending on the previous entries and exits in the relevant 180-day period, the calculator will either state that "The stay may be authorized for up to: x day(s)", or in a case of possible overstay, it provides the same information as in "Control" function (see above).

 

4. How to enter the dates?

 

The calculator will indicate dates in the following format: dd/mm/yy (e.g. 01/01/14 for 1 January 2014), but all dates must be entered as a plain six-digit number: e.g. for 1 January 2014 - enter 010114. Should you fail to use this format, an error message will appear stating that: "The date dd/mm/yy is not a valid date".

 

"Date of entry/control:" The current date is generated by the calculator automatically but can be changed. In “control” function this date is to be interpreted as "date of control", while in “planning” function, as "date of entry".

 

"Enter previous stay(s) in the Schengen area:" The first column is for entry dates, while the second column is for exit dates. The third column is for the corresponding length of stay which is filled in by the calculator by pushing the "Calculate" button. This column should therefore be left empty by the user. The date format to be used for adding the entry/exit dates is similarly the 6-digit "ddmmyy". With the "tab" button of your keyboard it is possible to move between the boxes.

 

If you see three columns, you do not necessarily need to add the entry and exit dates in chronological order, but you should match the date of exit to the corresponding date of entry. Otherwise the calculator provides the following response: "The stay with entering date dd/mm/yy is later than the exit date dd/mm/yy. Calculation of stay is not possible." By pressing the "Passport" button only one column would remain. This function permits addition of entry and exit dates in random order; when the calculator will do the matching. However, it is necessary to make a distinction between entry date (by adding "+" before the 6-digit entry date) and exit dates (by adding a "-" before the 6-digit entry date), e.g. +010114 stands for an entry stamp in the passport of 1 January 2014, while -010214 stands for an exit stamp of 1 February 2014. The added value of "Passport" functionality is that the calculator will automatically sort exit dates against corresponding entry dates. This functionality is primarily designed for border guards.

 

Irrespective of whether the calculator is used in "Passport" mode, if an entry or exit date is missing, the calculator will be unable to make the calculation. In this case, the calculator will only state that: "Calculation of stay is not possible". Therefore, if you are (the traveller is) still in the Schengen area, in order to check the compliance with the 90 days / 180-day rule on a particular date (date of control), please insert that date as a date of exit.

 

Please check entry and exit stamps in the passport, and on the basis of the entry and exit stamps affixed by the authorities of one of the Schengen States in the past 180 days, add the dates of entry and exit to the calculator as explained above. Please note that periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa (D-type visa) will not be considered in the calculation. Accordingly, the dates of the entry and exit (if any) related to residence in a particular Schengen State should not be inserted.

Deletion of entries: The "Reset" button clears all entries. Entries in specific boxes can be deleted with the "delete" button on your keyboard.

 

6. Examples.

 

The following examples illustrate the application of the 90 days / 180-day rule and the use of the calculator.

 

A person not subject to a visa requirement.

 

A third country national not subject to a visa requirement entered Schengen for the first time on 1 January 2014 and left the same day.

 

They entered Schengen again on 1 June 2014 and stayed until 20 September 2014 (112 days).

 

When should this person have left the Schengen area to comply with the 90 days / 180-day rule?

 

When they re-entered Schengen on 1 June their 1 January 2014 1 day visit was irrelevant because they had been out of Schengen for more than 90 days. A new 90-day allowance had begun on 2/4/15.

 

By 29 August 2014 the person had stayed 90 days (29/8/2014 - 1/6/2014 = 90 days), so 29 August 2014 was their last authorised day in Schengen.

 

Had they left on 29 August (or earlier) they would have complied with the 90-day / 180-day rule. By prolonging their stay until 20 September they over-stayed the 90-day limit by 21 days.

 

A person subject to a visa requirement.

 

A third-country national has been granted a multiple-entry visa for one year (1/1/2015 to 31/12/2015) allowing stays of maximum 90 days per 180 days.

 

The visa holder entered Schengen 1 January 2015 and left 10 January 2015 (10 days), then entered 1 March 2015 and left 30 March 2015 (30 days), and finally entered 1 May 2015 and left 9 June 2015 (40 days): 80 days in total.

 

If the person enters again, how long are they be allowed to stay to comply with the 90-day / 180-day rule?

 

Option 1: enter again on 20/6/2015. Entry authorised for maximum 20 consecutive days, calculated as follows: on 20/6/2015 10 days remain from their previously authorised 90 days (80 days spent in Schengen between 1/1/15 and 18/6/15); to which can be added 10 days from 29/6/14, as the 10 day 1/1/15 trip drops progressively outside the 180 day reference period. On 9 July the 90 days authorised limit is reached (70 days between 1/3/14 and 9/6/14, plus 20 days to 9/7/15: making 90 days within 180 days).

 

Option 2: enter again on 7/8/2015. The person can enter for a maximum 20 consecutive days ending on 26/8/2015. Both the 30 day stay beginning 1/3/2015 and the 40 day stay beginning 1/5/15 fall within the 180-day reference period (which started 9/2/2015). On 26/8/2015 the 90-day limit is reached (70 days between 1/3/14 and 9/6/14, plus 20 days to 26/8/15: making 90 days within 180 days).

 

Option 3: enter again on 28/8/2015. The person can enter for a maximum 50 consecutive days ending on 16/10/2015. Both the 30 day stay beginning 1/3/2015 and the 40 day stay beginning 1/5/15 initially fall within the 180-day reference period (beginning 2/3/2015). From 2/3/2015 the 30 days beginning 1/3/2015 begin dropping outside the 180-day reference period, becoming irrelevant on 31/3/1015, and leaving only the 40 day stay beginning 1/5/2015 to count against the authorised 90 days, which end on 16/10/2015. On 16/10/2015 the person must leave Schengen to comply with the 90-day / 180-day rule.

 

Option 4: enter again on or after 8/9/2015. The person can enter for 90 days maximum. 90 days consecutive absence (between 10/6/2015 and 7/9/2015) re-sets the reference period, allowing further stays of up to 90 days within a new 180-day reference period.

 

The references above to the person having a visa entitlement or not appear to have no bearing on the calculation of 90/180 day compliance. The calculator itself make no distinction regarding visa status, only whether a trip, or series of trips, meet/s the 90/180 day requirement/s.

[witzend]

Barryd999 - 2018-12-22 2:19 PM

For some Brexiteers its all about getting their "win" over the line but they will have won nothing apart from a chance to perhaps punch the air again on March 29th but it will be the biggest anti climax since Dave Pelmets wedding night when he drank too many bottles of Cava. :-D

 

Better to call it off while we still can and either fight to improve it for us from within or wait until such a time that it is clear there is a way forward that the vast majority of the country agree on. Not only that, if Brexit 2 the sequel does materialise hopefully we will have learned something from the humongous amount of mistakes and cock ups we made this time.

 

But things have moved on now since the referendum See the crashing Victory Boris's crowd had in the general election when he offered to Do It For Britian