Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 11:14 AM 747 - 2018-12-13 9:10 AM...............The problems with Brexit negotiations stem from the self serving greedy corrupt Politicians. If we had been better served, none of this present situation would have happened. I feel deeply ashamed of them, so don't villainise someone for voting Leave, put the blame where it belongs...………….. Fine, but the impact of leaving will be felt by everyone, it seems both within, and out of, the EU. Is that reasonable? After all, if our politicians are all as rotten as you say, who was it who elected them - just those who voted to remain? What impact?........We haven't left yet *-) ......so we don't know what impact there will be if any ;-) .......... Seems to me what scares you Remoaners the most is that the UK will thrive outside of the EU :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 11:24 AM pelmetman - 2018-12-13 1:16 PM...…………...The liberal view that folk should be allowed to migrate at will regardless of whether they have the wherewithal to support themselves is all fine and dandy.......... And it is also incorrect. It is within the EU rules on free movement that the maximum stay as a tourist is three months, and that if coming to work or as a job-seeker you must have a job, or a reasonable expectation of obtaining one, must be able to support yourself while seeking a job and, if you cannot fid a job within three months, you must leave. If coming to settle, you must have sufficient means and income to support your self indefinitely. It is all there, and can be applied by government if it so chooses. What you have to ask is why government chose to waive those rules. Because of the EU and ECJ *-) ......... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful The European commission has said EU member states have no right to deport EU citizens for being homeless and said EU citizens had a right to live in other EU countries “irrespective of whether they are homeless or not”. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12140444/European-court-challenges-Britains-right-to-deport-foreign-criminals.html The advocate general of Europe’s highest court said that foreign offenders whose children have British nationality cannot be expelled “simply” because they have committed a crime. Enough said eh? :-| ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 1:12 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 8:21 AM Point of order.........I wonder what percentage of UK motorhomers actually spend more than 90 days in the EU? :-S .......... My guess is 1% based on those who stay here for the winter :-| ........... Just adding some perspective to this thread :D .......... Perspective is fine Dave. How long do you spend each year in the Schengen area? 5 months......which is apparently illegal already according to you (lol) ......... So I expect I'll be a self funded illegal again next year too B-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 747 - 2018-12-15 12:15 PM...............……….I am being told by Brian the OP that the 52% who voted Leave will impact the future of the 48% who wanted to stay. Well, that is Democracy and it was voted for by people who are not paid Members of Parliament but by the general public (who can't claim expenses running into tens of thousands of Pounds like an MP). Therefore, there was no corruption involved, apart from the lies and spin of a few Politicians on the sidelines. Therefore Brian will have to face the fact that the British peoples actions may curtail his long European trips. Some people have to face much worse things in life. I'm sorry, but this is quite disingenuous. I actually said: "Fine, but the impact of leaving will be felt by everyone, it seems both within, and out of, the EU. Is that reasonable? After all, if our politicians are all as rotten as you say, who was it who elected them - just those who voted to remain?" So, a reminder that the impact of Brexit will fall on those who didn't will it as well as those in other countries who had no say. That still seems to me a reasonable point. That one should take account of the impact of one's decisions. That is fundamental to democracy. My statement does not make, or imply, any allegation of corruption. Finally, "stop complaining, there are others worse off", is the classic justification for a race to the bottom. I did not vote for a race to the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:05 PM...…………….What impact?........We haven't left yet *-) ......so we don't know what impact there will be if any ;-) .......... Seems to me what scares you Remoaners the most is that the UK will thrive outside of the EU :-| ........ This misses the point, Dave. The impact will be felt by everyone. It's obvious there won't be an impact from leaving before we leave. Even I have worked that out! :-D Why would anyone worry about being better off as a consequence? What worries me is that every projection says we will be worse off under any version of Brexit. You're back to standing in the middle of the room with your eyes shut, and saying "you can't see me"! :-D Elephants, Dave, bloody great elephants! If you opened your eyes you'd see them! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 witzend - 2018-12-14 10:43 PM All Aboard Just how long have you been having this delusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:11 PM..................Because of the EU and ECJ *-) ......... The European commission has said EU member states have no right to deport EU citizens for being homeless and said EU citizens had a right to live in other EU countries “irrespective of whether they are homeless or not”. The advocate general of Europe’s highest court said that foreign offenders whose children have British nationality cannot be expelled “simply” because they have committed a crime. Enough said eh? :-| ......... No straight banana, Dave! Those cases concern removing people who are already in the UK. Your point, which I answered, relates to the opposite: allowing people to enter the UK. If the migration rules are properly enforced, the need to deport should not arise, should it? But, this has nothing to do with post-Brexit travel within Schengen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 8:21 AM Point of order.........I wonder what percentage of UK motorhomers actually spend more than 90 days in the EU? :-S .......... My guess is 1% based on those who stay here for the winter :-| ........... Just adding some perspective to this thread :D .......... I’ve seen the “vino” you drink, I wouldn’t put it on my chips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoko8pups Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 11:24 AM pelmetman - 2018-12-13 1:16 PM...…………...The liberal view that folk should be allowed to migrate at will regardless of whether they have the wherewithal to support themselves is all fine and dandy.......... And it is also incorrect. It is within the EU rules on free movement that the maximum stay as a tourist is three months, and that if coming to work or as a job-seeker you must have a job, or a reasonable expectation of obtaining one, must be able to support yourself while seeking a job and, if you cannot fid a job within three months, you must leave. If coming to settle, you must have sufficient means and income to support your self indefinitely. It is all there, and can be applied by government if it so chooses. What you have to ask is why government chose to waive those rules. I so agree, I live in Europe and it doesn't offend me at all to have to prove I have sufficient income to support myself and pay for healthcare nor did I worry when I had to register for an identity card which had a photo and a fingerprint on it. I have to carry that or my passport with me at all times incase the police want to know who I am. The UK could have chosen to do this (EU citizens are used to this) right from the time we joined but they chose not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Interest reading from belgium and the frequent visits of the new iron lady Theresa. Last visit only some details about Ireland. Will see what happens visit the uk whit dogs next year.Keep talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoko8pups Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 phalange - 2018-12-15 1:29 PM in hindsight, perhaps the government should have negotiated the exit strategy first and then let the country vote on wether we wanted to leave on those terms or not. That would have been much better, the vote would have been more representative after the facts were known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 747 - 2018-12-15 12:15 PM I am being told by Brian the OP that the 52% who voted Leave will impact the future of the 48% who wanted to stay. Well, that is Democracy and it was voted for by people who are not paid Members of Parliament but by the general public (who can't claim expenses running into tens of thousands of Pounds like an MP). Therefore, there was no corruption involved, apart from the lies and spin of a few Politicians on the sidelines. Therefore Brian will have to face the fact that the British peoples actions may curtail his long European trips. Some people have to face much worse things in life. Whilst it would be wrong of me to guess the reasons for people to vote the way they did, in conversation with our relatives, friends and acquaintances it appears to me that a lot of the vote was polarised by people who had/have strong views on a single issue, be that immigration, taking back control or whatever. What I find astounding is that very few of them seem to have considered the bigger picture and likely consequences at the time of voting. Now that various aspects are becoming clear to them, a not insignificant number are saying "I didn't realise that would happen" and "I wouldn't have voted to leave if I had". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 3:23 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:11 PM..................Because of the EU and ECJ *-) ......... The European commission has said EU member states have no right to deport EU citizens for being homeless and said EU citizens had a right to live in other EU countries “irrespective of whether they are homeless or not”. The advocate general of Europe’s highest court said that foreign offenders whose children have British nationality cannot be expelled “simply” because they have committed a crime. Enough said eh? :-| ......... No straight banana, Dave! Those cases concern removing people who are already in the UK. Your point, which I answered, relates to the opposite: allowing people to enter the UK. If the migration rules are properly enforced, the need to deport should not arise, should it? But, this has nothing to do with post-Brexit travel within Schengen. Nit picking Brian *-) .......... Those links are proof positive of how the EU & ECJ prevent the UK from acting as a Sovereign Nation :-| ......... Which is why 52% want to take back control >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 starvin marvin - 2018-12-15 3:30 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 8:21 AM Point of order.........I wonder what percentage of UK motorhomers actually spend more than 90 days in the EU? :-S .......... My guess is 1% based on those who stay here for the winter :-| ........... Just adding some perspective to this thread :D .......... I’ve seen the “vino” you drink, I wouldn’t put it on my chips! Good idea ;-) ......... You'd make a mess putting it on those left wing chips on your shoulder :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 3:15 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:05 PM...…………….What impact?........We haven't left yet *-) ......so we don't know what impact there will be if any ;-) .......... Seems to me what scares you Remoaners the most is that the UK will thrive outside of the EU :-| ........ This misses the point, Dave. The impact will be felt by everyone. It's obvious there won't be an impact from leaving before we leave. Even I have worked that out! :-D Why would anyone worry about being better off as a consequence? What worries me is that every projection says we will be worse off under any version of Brexit. You're back to standing in the middle of the room with your eyes shut, and saying "you can't see me"! :-D Elephants, Dave, bloody great elephants! If you opened your eyes you'd see them! :-D I agree ;-) ........... The impact will benefit everyone in the UK B-) ........... Not those Dumbo's in the EU >:-) ....... Who will see a lot more countries packing their "trunks" once they realise the UK is doing bloody great outside of the EU zoo :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:14 PM....................5 months......which is apparently illegal already according to you (lol) ......... So I expect I'll be a self funded illegal again next year too B-) ........ I still think you haven't yet "got" this, Dave. First, you need to count in days, not months, if you want to avoid trouble. However, lets say 5 months is 150 days. Your first 180 day window will allow you 90 of those 180 days, and will expire on the day you leave Schengen. If you want to spend the 60 day balance of your 150 days in Schengen, you'll have to plan to leave Schengen 180 days after your previous departure, as otherwise your second 180 day period would overlap the first (expired) 180 day period. And so on. This isn't according to me, it is according to Article 6. 1. of Regulation (EU) 3016/399, which you can download for yourself from the EU website. Just "Google" EU 2016/399. It is dated 9 March 2016. Download a copy and have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 4:07 PM......….The impact will benefit everyone in the UK B-) ........... …………………. Your evidence for this being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-12-15 3:59 PM.......................Nit picking Brian *-) .........………….. So, it's nit picking to point out that complaining (incorrectly) that the EU allows more or less anyone to enter the UK, is not at all the same as the EU being able to prevent the UK from deporting certain individuals on various, different, legal grounds? Some nit! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 747 - 2018-12-15 8:00 AM Bulletguy - 2018-12-14 11:50 PM 747 - 2018-12-14 3:55 PM Deneb - 2018-12-14 1:57 PM I have deliberately stayed out of Brexit type posts so far, but I wouldn't worry about new hospitals. My wife has worked in the NHS for over 40 years. We can't fully staff the hospitals we've got now and the NHS is heavily reliant on foreign workers, partly because it is impossible to find enough British people willing to do a lot of the less glamorous jobs which are nevertheless absolutely necessary to keep hospitals running and provide even adequate patient care. We've pushed all our young people into getting university educations, and they now enter the world of work with an attitude that because they have a degree (albeit in music technology or indigenous American history as just two examples) a lot of tasks are beneath them. You can't even get a lot of trained nurses to clear up bodily fluids and other messes apparently, because after they've done it once and ticked it off there training requirements, it's "not their job" as qualified nursing staff. My wife and many of her colleagues believe that, if foreign unskilled workers are forced to leave the UK, it will be a death knell for the NHS as we know it. Sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you on this. Why is their a shortage of British born Nurses? Simply because we do not pay them while in training. My Daughter had to study hard for 2 years to qualify as a Theatre Nurse (ODP or summat it is called these days). She did not get a wage, she got a Bursary ..... of £80 a month. Now you tell me, who do you know that would work hard (without the firm offer of a job at the end of it) for £20 a week and buy all their own textbooks and pay their commuting costs out of that. Something isn't quite stacking up here 747 as we don't have the full story. Did your daughter study as a full time student at college or was she studying whilst training on the job, eg as a healthcare asst? The former quite naturally would not be paid as a college student isn't an employed position whereas the latter is and receives an income, eg; Band 2 healthcare asst is currently £17.5k pa. Also the Bursary amount is dependent on each students income level (if earning) or if not earning, parents income. She was a Student and not in other employment. Given that the majority of Nurses are female and Married or living with Parents, the system is ridiculous for attracting new Staff. That is why common practice has been to recruit already qualified Staff from overseas (which also saves a lot of money as training costs are bypassed). Brexit could affect the NHS but it is not the root cause of the problems. The point i was making was it's possible to study whilst employed and i used the lowest level (healthcare asst) as an example to show that. This is clearly stated on the NHS nursing website. I'm not sure exactly how bursary amounts are calculated but looking through student tuition fee calculators suggests it's means tested. Whilst Brexit isn't a root cause of NHS problems, it's certainly not going to help as more qualified EU nursing staff now leave than join. Of course i realise there are many other issues not helping, back door privatisation, severe under funding and gross under staffing to mention a few, but that's another thread and i don't want to take this any further off topic! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42653542 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 3:02 PM I'm sorry, but this is quite disingenuous. I actually said: "Fine, but the impact of leaving will be felt by everyone, it seems both within, and out of, the EU. Is that reasonable? After all, if our politicians are all as rotten as you say, who was it who elected them - just those who voted to remain?" So, a reminder that the impact of Brexit will fall on those who didn't will it as well as those in other countries who had no say. That still seems to me a reasonable point. That one should take account of the impact of one's decisions. That is fundamental to democracy. My statement does not make, or imply, any allegation of corruption. Finally, "stop complaining, there are others worse off", is the classic justification for a race to the bottom. I did not vote for a race to the bottom. Brian, despite the shambolic handling of negotiations by the Government, I think that I would still vote leave. Long term, I think it will be a better future for an independant UK than it will be for the EU. It has been apparent to me that the EU leaders have had nothing but disdain for UK Prime Ministers, remember how they treated Cameron? It has also become apparent in the last 2 years that the EU is set up to make it impossible to leave, it is a 'Hotel California' situation. The only other option would be to remain a member, which means eventually joining the Euro, the European Army and becoming part of a Federal European State. I think that you are worrying too much and things will not be as bad as you reckon. Of course it looks like the little old UK is being bullied by the big nasty EU but they hold all the cards until we leave. That is the time that accommodations will be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 4:36 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 3:59 PM.......................Nit picking Brian *-) .........………….. So, it's nit picking to point out that complaining (incorrectly) that the EU allows more or less anyone to enter the UK, is not at all the same as the EU being able to prevent the UK from deporting certain individuals on various, different, legal grounds? Some nit! :-D So your saying anyone from the EU "CAN NOT" rock up to Dover with their passport, buy a ticket and enter the UK? (lol) ........... You'll be telling the worlds flat next 8-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 4:26 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 4:07 PM......….The impact will benefit everyone in the UK B-) ........... …………………. Your evidence for this being? The same as yours ;-) ........ From experts >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 aandy - 2018-12-15 8:05 AM Bulletguy - 2018-12-15 12:07 AM Director of the Leave campaign, Dominic Cummings, openly admitted the "£350m lie" on the bus was pivotal to the campaign even though he knew it was a distortion of fact and as for 'waiting until out' before complaining is rather like shutting the gate after the horse has bolted! However, it's not going to be left to quietly disappear as Brexit ministers who gleefully peddled this myth, Johnson, Gove et al, will be held to account and NHS head Simon Stevens summed it up perfectly. So next time you're sitting in a wheelchair or on stretcher for hours on end in a hospital corridor, remember what you voted for. Firstly, the £350m is not what we actually pay to the EU but it is what the EU deem to be our due and what we would have been paying - were we to stay in - once the rebate, which was never permanent comes to an end. I know that hence the reason i used quote marks to indicate it as such, but that distortion and misinformation certainly had the desired effect in the campaign. It was intentionally misleading and even the ONS stepped in at one point asking for the slogan to be corrected. I see the rest has been answered by Brian so will leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 4:24 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:14 PM....................5 months......which is apparently illegal already according to you (lol) ......... So I expect I'll be a self funded illegal again next year too B-) ........ I still think you haven't yet "got" this, Dave. First, you need to count in days, not months, if you want to avoid trouble. However, lets say 5 months is 150 days. Your first 180 day window will allow you 90 of those 180 days, and will expire on the day you leave Schengen. If you want to spend the 60 day balance of your 150 days in Schengen, you'll have to plan to leave Schengen 180 days after your previous departure, as otherwise your second 180 day period would overlap the first (expired) 180 day period. And so on. This isn't according to me, it is according to Article 6. 1. of Regulation (EU) 3016/399, which you can download for yourself from the EU website. Just "Google" EU 2016/399. It is dated 9 March 2016. Download a copy and have a look. Do those rules not already apply? ;-) .......... If so...... why have the same EU citizens been spending their winter here with us for years?????? *-) ......... Do these rules not apply to the Dutch? Belgium's? French? Swiss? Norwegians? Italians? Swedish? German's etc etc :D .......... "The European Commission states that EU citizens have the right to reside on the territory of another country "for up to three months without any conditions other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport". Importantly, there is no requirement to register with the local authorities for a residence permit." Bloody rule dodging foreigners 8-) .........Perhaps I should report them now I've got my padron? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-12-15 4:24 PM pelmetman - 2018-12-15 2:14 PM....................5 months......which is apparently illegal already according to you (lol) ......... So I expect I'll be a self funded illegal again next year too B-) ........ I still think you haven't yet "got" this, Dave. First, you need to count in days, not months, if you want to avoid trouble. This isn't according to me, it is according to Article 6. 1. of Regulation (EU) 3016/399, which you can download for yourself from the EU website. Just "Google" EU 2016/399. It is dated 9 March 2016. Download a copy and have a look. I don't think he ever will until facing questions at immigration control, slung off a GP's register, or refused NHS treatment. As most months have 31 days apart from February it's easy to see in many cases the 90 days would not amount to three months! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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