Stays in Schengen area post Brexit

[Brian Kirby]

spirou - 2018-12-11 3:11 PM

 

Why not just hop on a weekend flight to anywhere in Schengen in January/February and July/August? Just wait for some 9.99 low cost airline ticket, have a nice lunch/dinner somewhere and fly back. Seems to me the least problematic/expensive solution to your problem.

Well, assuming proximity to an airport, one would still have to get through the non-EU boarding procedure each end which, last time I flew within the EU seemed to take far more time than the actual flight, and one then has to get from the destination airport to the restaurant!

 

But, sadly even that ingenious ruse won't work - because I've now found the full wording of the restriction in REGULATION (EU) 2016/399 (of 9/3/16), which states:

"Article 6

Entry conditions for third-country nationals

1. For intended stays on the territory of the Member States of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period, which entails considering the 180-day period preceding each day of stay...…………..".

 

So, if making two trips per year, the first trip should be OK (providing the preceding trip ended more than 180 days before the first trip began - which for us is highly likely).

 

The problem only arises with the second trip which, because the interval between spring and autumn trips is (for us) only in the region of 70 days, means that the end of the spring trip will fall into the retrospective 180 day period that commences with the first day of the second trip. After the first day, each succeeding day of the second trip becomes cumulative with first trip days so that by day 18 of the second trip one has already overstayed by one day, continuing until day 34 of the second trip, by when one will have accumulated 20 days of overstay - meaning a fine and/or a ban on EU/Schengen entry for whatever period is imposed.

 

(anyone is welcome to check the above arithmetic, I keep getting fogged about half way through! :-). The basis is a spring trip commencing 12 April and ending 24 June, and an autumn trip commencing 2 Sept and ending 23 Oct, so 124 days total in Schengen.)

 

So, it seems we're looking at having to reduce the time we spend in EU/Schengen each year by about three weeks. Bummer!

 

There is a possible work-around of obtaining a long-stay Schengen visa. These are issued by the Schengen states individually, and each state has varying conditions attaching - in some cases restricting the validity of the visa to the issuing state only, others valid in all Schengen states.

 

I gather that, fortunately, the French visa is relatively straightforward, and is valid throughout Schengen with only restrictions on validity in various French overseas dependencies. I do not know the cost, but one has to attend the French embassy in person for a pre-arranged meeting, and take all supporting documentation, including evidence of income etc., to prove one has funds to sustain one's self for the duration of authorised stay.

 

I think these visas are valid for up to three years, but are not generally issued for travel purposes, being focused on frequent business visitors or people working on an extended temporary basis.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-12 11:56 AM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-11 2:02 PM...…………………...BTW Brian ;-) ........

You never did explain why the Russians appear to have no problems living here long term? :D ...........

I gave my reply to that query way back. Beyond that, as in Gone With the Wind, frankly my dear, I don't give a damn! They are Russian, I am not, they are in Spain, I seldom visit Spain. Who cares?

 

Us folk who long term in Spain ;-) ..........

 

Because it appears all this Schengen shenanigans counts for nowt out here B-) ..........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-12-12 7:34 AM

 

Perhaps you should have a look at your log book ;-) ..........

 

It'll say this document is NOT proof of ownership :D .........

This isn't the section for point scoring pedantry. You knew damn well what i was saying. Bottom line is regardless whatever excuse you try using, your point of exit and entry is electronically logged and that is a fact.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-12 12:51 PM

 

spirou - 2018-12-11 3:11 PM

 

Why not just hop on a weekend flight to anywhere in Schengen in January/February and July/August? Just wait for some 9.99 low cost airline ticket, have a nice lunch/dinner somewhere and fly back. Seems to me the least problematic/expensive solution to your problem.

Well, assuming proximity to an airport, one would still have to get through the non-EU boarding procedure each end which, last time I flew within the EU seemed to take far more time than the actual flight, and one then has to get from the destination airport to the restaurant!

 

But, sadly even that ingenious ruse won't work - because I've now found the full wording of the restriction in REGULATION (EU) 2016/399 (of 9/3/16), which states:

"Article 6

Entry conditions for third-country nationals

1. For intended stays on the territory of the Member States of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period, which entails considering the 180-day period preceding each day of stay...…………..".

 

So, if making two trips per year, the first trip should be OK (providing the preceding trip ended more than 180 days before the first trip began - which for us is highly likely).

Brian....did you look at the Schengen Calculator posted by Cattwg last night? That works it all out including multiple trips and tells you if you are outside the limit or within. It's worth putting sample dates in just too see how it works.

[Cattwg]

According to this website https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/tourist-schengen-visa/ one of the requirements for a tourist visa is the provision of an address.

“Proof of accommodation. Evidence that shows where you will be staying throughout your

time in Schengen”.

We like very many others like to tour and don’t really know where we’ll be from one night to the next!

Let’s hope that we do not need visas to comply with the 90 days in 180 days rule. I would be very surprised if we did - or am I just being optimistic

Cattwg (trying to stay happy and positive) :-D

[Bulletguy]

Cattwg - 2018-12-12 4:05 PM

 

According to this website https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/tourist-schengen-visa/ one of the requirements for a tourist visa is the provision of an address.

“Proof of accommodation. Evidence that shows where you will be staying throughout your

time in Schengen”.

We like very many others like to tour and don’t really know where we’ll be from one night to the next!

Let’s hope that we do not need visas to comply with the 90 days in 180 days rule. I would be very surprised if we did - or am I just being optimistic

Cattwg (trying to stay happy and positive) :-D

That's exactly the same visa requirements for Russia and Belarus and the only thing which stopped me. You have to give "inviting party name and address", ie a Hotel, plus dates you will be at that address and when you plan to leave. So for motorhome touring it's pretty difficult. When i was in Estonia a couple of years ago i was tempted to visit St Petersburg as it was only 90 miles away, but cost of visa plus hassle was too much.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

I think it is time to pull out a nice Brexit chrismas tree in your motorhome. whit led lights.

[spirou]

PJay - 2018-12-12 9:56 AM

What do you think about us leaving the EU? Good or bad thing? As an outsider (Well a non resident) would be interesting to know what you opinion is.

We won't hold it against you, what ever your views!!!

 

Not an Australian but I'll give it a go B-)

 

The short version: leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer :-D

 

Long version:

 

My daughter is half Slovenian, quarter Finnish and the remainder is a further mix of Scottish and Irish provenance. She has dual citizenship and will be trilingual at a minimum (currently at a growing list of individual words in two languages phase). She will get to experience life and school systems in at least two countries, hopefully more. She is one of already millions of "Erasmus" babies all over Europe, although technically she came about a decade after we met while working in Greece. In addition to our home countries, her mother and I lived and/or worked in aforementioned Greece, as well as Croatia, Norway, Spain and Portugal. If we include just our siblings we can extend the list to at least Austria, Germany, Serbia, UK, France and Argentina. Neither of us feels a particularly strong national identity or cares about country borders but feel more like citizens of Europe and would welcome more common legislation and integration. I know many people who feel exactly the same way, including many "remoaners" we count among friends. We consider the entire Europe our back yard. Our work and leisure travel is regularly taking us to nearly all countries of Europe, those in and out of EU. I can communicate in about 10 languages (depends how you count them) and understand nearly all European languages to a certain degree.

 

I'll be the first to admit the EU has many serious problems and several that might lead one to think leaving is a good option. I've got a few spare if you need more excuses. But if you'd care to think about it you'd see leaving/destroying it solves few, if any.

 

Just the simple fact that nation states haven't really existed before the 18th century, but were multi-ethnic political forms with constantly mixing populations (immigrants!!) >:-) suggests that all the hiding inside isolated walled gardens called country borders is a historical nonsense that never works in real life. But go ahead, if you believe any of the nonsense Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest of the stooges have said, it just tells me you've slept through most of your education.

 

I apologize if any of this offends anyone, it's full of necessary generalizations to keep it brief, but you did say you won't hold it against (us) :D

[BKen1]

 

 

 

Perhaps you could explain why the Russians who are not part of the EU or Schengen are now the largest foreign buyers of property in Spain? :D ...........

 

Not True statistic from the Ministery of Planning

Quarterly statistics of the “Ministerio de Fomento”.

 

Which are the most active nationalities within EU?

In the second half of 2018 the most active nationalities were :

 

the British (14.4%),

the French (8.1%),

the Germans (7.9%),

the Romanians (7.0%)

the Italians (6.6%),

the Belgians (5.7%).

and the Swedish (5.3%)

Representing 55% of all the real estate transactions purchased by foreigners in Spain for the last 12 months to June 2018 or 102.912.

 

Most active nationalities outside EU

The proportion of purchases was also high by foreigners outside the EU:

such as Morocco (6.1%), China (4.6%) or Russia (3.1%).

[Guest pelmetman]

BKen1 - 2018-12-12 6:21 PM

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you could explain why the Russians who are not part of the EU or Schengen are now the largest foreign buyers of property in Spain? :D ...........

 

Not True statistic from the Ministery of Planning

Quarterly statistics of the “Ministerio de Fomento”.

 

Which are the most active nationalities within EU?

In the second half of 2018 the most active nationalities were :

 

the British (14.4%),

the French (8.1%),

the Germans (7.9%),

the Romanians (7.0%)

the Italians (6.6%),

the Belgians (5.7%).

and the Swedish (5.3%)

Representing 55% of all the real estate transactions purchased by foreigners in Spain for the last 12 months to June 2018 or 102.912.

 

Most active nationalities outside EU

The proportion of purchases was also high by foreigners outside the EU:

such as Morocco (6.1%), China (4.6%) or Russia (3.1%).

 

 

 

I guess it depends on what years figures you use ;-) ..........

 

https://taylorwimpeyspain.com/blog/russian-buyers-purchase-over-4500-homes-on-costa-blanca/

 

"If you are aware of an increase in the number of people speaking Russian in the area that’s because people of that nation have now invested more than 1,000 million euros in property in the province. In the last three years Russians have acquired more than 4,500 homes on the Costa Blanca, which puts them at the top of the table for the sale of properties to foreigners on the Costa Blanca."

 

Still doesn't explain why not being in the EU or Schengen hasn't stopped them? :D ..........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Cattwg - 2018-12-12 4:05 PM

According to this website https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/tourist-schengen-visa/ one of the requirements for a tourist visa is the provision of an address.

“Proof of accommodation. Evidence that shows where you will be staying throughout your

time in Schengen”.

We like very many others like to tour and don’t really know where we’ll be from one night to the next!

Let’s hope that we do not need visas to comply with the 90 days in 180 days rule. I would be very surprised if we did - or am I just being optimistic

Cattwg (trying to stay happy and positive) :-D

If we Brexit I think the 90/180 days rule is pretty much unavoidable. It seems more likely that we shall not require visas, but we shall then have to "manage" our time in th EU/Schengen areas based on the entry/exit stamps in our passports. Seeing the duration of one's previous visit should be straightforward, though one must remember that both the day of arrival and the day of departure count as time in the area.

 

What seems much more unclear is how the 180 days "window" is calculated, so unless there is a clear period of 180 days between trips, one seem liable to be caught over-staying (for which there are various penalties), because the way the 180 day window is calculated is unclear (at least it is to me!), which leave one prone to making what seems a reasonable calculation - only to find that the border guard uses a different calculation!

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-12 3:40 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-12-12 7:34 AM

 

Perhaps you should have a look at your log book ;-) ..........

 

It'll say this document is NOT proof of ownership :D .........

This isn't the section for point scoring pedantry. You knew damn well what i was saying. Bottom line is regardless whatever excuse you try using, your point of exit and entry is electronically logged and that is a fact.

 

Is that you admitting you were wrong? :D ..........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2018-12-12 3:52 PM..................Brian....did you look at the Schengen Calculator posted by Cattwg last night? That works it all out including multiple trips and tells you if you are outside the limit or within. It's worth putting sample dates in just too see how it works.

Yes, but I don't trust it! I've also being playing with the official "Schengen calculator" here: http://tinyurl.com/y8y6mb29 which gives different answers, but as I cannot understand its logic, I don't understand why the difference arises. The instruction manual is also badly written, so not much help. If anyone can understand what it is doing, I'd be grateful for an explanation! :-D

[aandy]

"leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer"

 

It never fails to amaze me how many people believe they know why 17 million people voted as they did, nor how readily they take the views expressed by a few as being representative of the rest.

 

Brian, forgive me if I've over simplified or misunderstood your question, but if what you said about looking at the preceding period is a direct quote from the legislation, then it seems the 180 days is rolling period ending on any and every day you are in a EU state. If it is guidance it may not be so simple. Going back to the drivers' hours regulations I mentioned earlier, that is the principle by which we used to interpret them, until the courts ruled that the "back to back" interpretation I mentioned was lawful (even though it was clearly not what the legislators intended).

[Bulletguy]

spirou - 2018-12-12 6:14 PM

 

PJay - 2018-12-12 9:56 AM

What do you think about us leaving the EU? Good or bad thing? As an outsider (Well a non resident) would be interesting to know what you opinion is.

We won't hold it against you, what ever your views!!!

 

Not an Australian but I'll give it a go B-)

 

The short version: leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer :-D

 

Long version:

 

My daughter is half Slovenian, quarter Finnish and the remainder is a further mix of Scottish and Irish provenance. She has dual citizenship and will be trilingual at a minimum (currently at a growing list of individual words in two languages phase). She will get to experience life and school systems in at least two countries, hopefully more. She is one of already millions of "Erasmus" babies all over Europe, although technically she came about a decade after we met while working in Greece. In addition to our home countries, her mother and I lived and/or worked in aforementioned Greece, as well as Croatia, Norway, Spain and Portugal. If we include just our siblings we can extend the list to at least Austria, Germany, Serbia, UK, France and Argentina. Neither of us feels a particularly strong national identity or cares about country borders but feel more like citizens of Europe and would welcome more common legislation and integration. I know many people who feel exactly the same way, including many "remoaners" we count among friends. We consider the entire Europe our back yard. Our work and leisure travel is regularly taking us to nearly all countries of Europe, those in and out of EU. I can communicate in about 10 languages (depends how you count them) and understand nearly all European languages to a certain degree.

 

I'll be the first to admit the EU has many serious problems and several that might lead one to think leaving is a good option. I've got a few spare if you need more excuses. But if you'd care to think about it you'd see leaving/destroying it solves few, if any.

 

Just the simple fact that nation states haven't really existed before the 18th century, but were multi-ethnic political forms with constantly mixing populations (immigrants!!) >:-) suggests that all the hiding inside isolated walled gardens called country borders is a historical nonsense that never works in real life. But go ahead, if you believe any of the nonsense Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest of the stooges have said, it just tells me you've slept through most of your education.

 

I apologize if any of this offends anyone, it's full of necessary generalizations to keep it brief, but you did say you won't hold it against (us) :D

Excellent post and fascinating read.

[spirou]

aandy - 2018-12-12 8:53

 

It never fails to amaze me how many people believe they know why 17 million people voted as they did, nor how readily they take the views expressed by a few as being representative of the rest.

 

 

As stated I've included unavoidable generalizations to make a byte sized point. As far as biased generalizations go, we can start with brexiteers/remoaners and the naming implications. I will conceed some might have perfectly valid, rational and logical reasons for voting leave. But those will almost inevitably be selfish reasons on a certain level and at that point we will probably have to dissagree on whether that character trait is good, bad or harmless. And then we will all wait and see what happens in the future.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-12 6:47 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-12-12 3:52 PM..................Brian....did you look at the Schengen Calculator posted by Cattwg last night? That works it all out including multiple trips and tells you if you are outside the limit or within. It's worth putting sample dates in just too see how it works.

Yes, but I don't trust it! I've also being playing with the official "Schengen calculator" here: http://tinyurl.com/y8y6mb29 which gives different answers, but as I cannot understand its logic, I don't understand why the difference arises. The instruction manual is also badly written, so not much help. If anyone can understand what it is doing, I'd be grateful for an explanation! :-D

That's strange. I've just done a cross comparison with dates on both and as you said, it comes out different. :-|

[pkc]

spirou - 2018-12-12 6:14 PM

 

PJay - 2018-12-12 9:56 AM

What do you think about us leaving the EU? Good or bad thing? As an outsider (Well a non resident) would be interesting to know what you opinion is.

We won't hold it against you, what ever your views!!!

 

Not an Australian but I'll give it a go B-)

 

The short version: leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer :-D

 

Long version:

 

My daughter is half Slovenian, quarter Finnish and the remainder is a further mix of Scottish and Irish provenance. She has dual citizenship and will be trilingual at a minimum (currently at a growing list of individual words in two languages phase). She will get to experience life and school systems in at least two countries, hopefully more. She is one of already millions of "Erasmus" babies all over Europe, although technically she came about a decade after we met while working in Greece. In addition to our home countries, her mother and I lived and/or worked in aforementioned Greece, as well as Croatia, Norway, Spain and Portugal. If we include just our siblings we can extend the list to at least Austria, Germany, Serbia, UK, France and Argentina. Neither of us feels a particularly strong national identity or cares about country borders but feel more like citizens of Europe and would welcome more common legislation and integration. I know many people who feel exactly the same way, including many "remoaners" we count among friends. We consider the entire Europe our back yard. Our work and leisure travel is regularly taking us to nearly all countries of Europe, those in and out of EU. I can communicate in about 10 languages (depends how you count them) and understand nearly all European languages to a certain degree.

 

I'll be the first to admit the EU has many serious problems and several that might lead one to think leaving is a good option. I've got a few spare if you need more excuses. But if you'd care to think about it you'd see leaving/destroying it solves few, if any.

 

Just the simple fact that nation states haven't really existed before the 18th century, but were multi-ethnic political forms with constantly mixing populations (immigrants!!) >:-) suggests that all the hiding inside isolated walled gardens called country borders is a historical nonsense that never works in real life. But go ahead, if you believe any of the nonsense Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest of the stooges have said, it just tells me you've slept through most of your education.

 

I apologize if any of this offends anyone, it's full of necessary generalizations to keep it brief, but you did say you won't hold it against (us) :D

 

 

Agree 100%. Nice post.

[kevina]

I've input 7 trips of 120 days pa over 2 years and 2 months and both calculators give the ok.

[blaven]

pkc - 2018-12-12 9:07 PM

 

spirou - 2018-12-12 6:14 PM

 

PJay - 2018-12-12 9:56 AM

What do you think about us leaving the EU? Good or bad thing? As an outsider (Well a non resident) would be interesting to know what you opinion is.

We won't hold it against you, what ever your views!!!

 

Not an Australian but I'll give it a go B-)

 

The short version: leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer :-D

 

Long version:

 

My daughter is half Slovenian, quarter Finnish and the remainder is a further mix of Scottish and Irish provenance. She has dual citizenship and will be trilingual at a minimum (currently at a growing list of individual words in two languages phase). She will get to experience life and school systems in at least two countries, hopefully more. She is one of already millions of "Erasmus" babies all over Europe, although technically she came about a decade after we met while working in Greece. In addition to our home countries, her mother and I lived and/or worked in aforementioned Greece, as well as Croatia, Norway, Spain and Portugal. If we include just our siblings we can extend the list to at least Austria, Germany, Serbia, UK, France and Argentina. Neither of us feels a particularly strong national identity or cares about country borders but feel more like citizens of Europe and would welcome more common legislation and integration. I know many people who feel exactly the same way, including many "remoaners" we count among friends. We consider the entire Europe our back yard. Our work and leisure travel is regularly taking us to nearly all countries of Europe, those in and out of EU. I can communicate in about 10 languages (depends how you count them) and understand nearly all European languages to a certain degree.

 

I'll be the first to admit the EU has many serious problems and several that might lead one to think leaving is a good option. I've got a few spare if you need more excuses. But if you'd care to think about it you'd see leaving/destroying it solves few, if any.

 

Just the simple fact that nation states haven't really existed before the 18th century, but were multi-ethnic political forms with constantly mixing populations (immigrants!!) >:-) suggests that all the hiding inside isolated walled gardens called country borders is a historical nonsense that never works in real life. But go ahead, if you believe any of the nonsense Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest of the stooges have said, it just tells me you've slept through most of your education.

 

I apologize if any of this offends anyone, it's full of necessary generalizations to keep it brief, but you did say you won't hold it against (us) :D

 

 

Agree 100%. Nice post.

[blaven]

blaven - 2018-12-12 11:31 PM

 

pkc - 2018-12-12 9:07 PM

 

spirou - 2018-12-12 6:14 PM

 

PJay - 2018-12-12 9:56 AM

What do you think about us leaving the EU? Good or bad thing? As an outsider (Well a non resident) would be interesting to know what you opinion is.

We won't hold it against you, what ever your views!!!

 

Not an Australian but I'll give it a go B-)

 

The short version: leave vote was borne out of petulant, selfish and delusional mindset so nicely evidenced by mr. brexiteer :-D

 

Long version:

 

My daughter is half Slovenian, quarter Finnish and the remainder is a further mix of Scottish and Irish provenance. She has dual citizenship and will be trilingual at a minimum (currently at a growing list of individual words in two languages phase). She will get to experience life and school systems in at least two countries, hopefully more. She is one of already millions of "Erasmus" babies all over Europe, although technically she came about a decade after we met while working in Greece. In addition to our home countries, her mother and I lived and/or worked in aforementioned Greece, as well as Croatia, Norway, Spain and Portugal. If we include just our siblings we can extend the list to at least Austria, Germany, Serbia, UK, France and Argentina. Neither of us feels a particularly strong national identity or cares about country borders but feel more like citizens of Europe and would welcome more common legislation and integration. I know many people who feel exactly the same way, including many "remoaners" we count among friends. We consider the entire Europe our back yard. Our work and leisure travel is regularly taking us to nearly all countries of Europe, those in and out of EU. I can communicate in about 10 languages (depends how you count them) and understand nearly all European languages to a certain degree.

 

I'll be the first to admit the EU has many serious problems and several that might lead one to think leaving is a good option. I've got a few spare if you need more excuses. But if you'd care to think about it you'd see leaving/destroying it solves few, if any.

 

Just the simple fact that nation states haven't really existed before the 18th century, but were multi-ethnic political forms with constantly mixing populations (immigrants!!) >:-) suggests that all the hiding inside isolated walled gardens called country borders is a historical nonsense that never works in real life. But go ahead, if you believe any of the nonsense Johnson, Farage, Rees-Mogg and the rest of the stooges have said, it just tells me you've slept through most of your education.

 

I apologize if any of this offends anyone, it's full of necessary generalizations to keep it brief, but you did say you won't hold it against (us) :D

 

 

Agree 100%. Nice post.

 

Heartwarming account. I applaud you and your extended family. Your story makes a strong case for freedom of movement which, sadly, seems to be the direction away from which our demented politicians are steering us.

[Guest pelmetman]

spirou - 2018-12-12 8:53 AM

 

Buying property and obtaining residence are two very different things. One involves a bundle of cash, the other... not so much. Even legally moving permanently between different EU!! countries is a complex undertaking involving numerous visits to various institutions and government offices over several years before being granted permanent residency. Having enough money helps a tiny little bit, having a job waiting quite a bit more, neither is enough for permanent residence but together might be just enough for temporary status.

 

You'll just have to believe me, I've gone through this absurd Kafkaesque experience when my wife moved over. A friend tried/is trying to do the same with a non-EU resident and as far as I know it's still nowhere near finished. My sister in-law moved her own business to London for a few years while her partner was doing post grad work and neither remember it as a fun bureaucratic experience even as temporary "self funded" residents. EU didn't make it easy, but it does make it a whole lot easier to move, open a business, sort out insurance, pay taxes, obtain citizenship etc. Post brexit? There will be a lot of "thanks for the job offer but ...hell no" and that goes both ways. I know plenty of (young) Brits working around EU who're getting f... by old farts who think they're stopping illegal immigration or whatever other b.s. reason they can think of. All the while sitting at a "british" pub in Calp, Benidorm or some other horrible enclave.

 

If you want to be an isolated island, go be one and see how that works out for you...

 

So you're just another Remoaner who thinks Brexiteers want to stop ALL migration? *-) ..........

 

You don't want to on go believing your own propaganda..... as we want "common sense" controlled migration ;-) ........

 

Which is why I raised the point about the Russians out here.........clearly the EU or Schengen is not stopping them from living here long term.........So why should it prevent us when we leave the EU? :-| ........

 

BTW the only pubs in this horrible enclave are Irish :D .........

 

 

[aandy]

spirou - 2018-12-12 8:56 PM

 

As stated I've included unavoidable generalizations to make a byte sized point. As far as biased generalizations go, we can start with brexiteers/remoaners and the naming implications. I will conceed some might have perfectly valid, rational and logical reasons for voting leave. But those will almost inevitably be selfish reasons on a certain level and at that point we will probably have to dissagree on whether that character trait is good, bad or harmless. And then we will all wait and see what happens in the future.

 

The generalization was easily avoidable. Don't pretend to know the motivations of millions of people whom you've never met and who have never expressed their reasons publicly, and no generalisation is needed.

 

The contention that those who voted out did so for selfish reasons is somewhat ironic when it seems from some of the comments here that a significant concern for many who wish to remain is how leaving will affect their holiday plans. It is also, of course, another unnecessary and wholly unfounded generalisation.

 

Where I do agree with you is on the name calling. I don't much like either term, particularly when used solely according to how someone voted, but there is some legitimacy to their use when directed at those who believe they know with certainty what the outcome will be (either way), and refuse to accept that there can be any legitimate argument for the opposing view.

[747]

Well said aandy.

 

I voted out because the EU Commissioners were getting power mad and Empire building. They put the whole of Europe at risk by encouraging the likes of Ukraine into their 'Club' even though they knew the membership of the Baltic States had angered Russia. Just look at what Russia did in Crimea in retaliation. On top of that they decided to form a European Army FFS. 8-) How many Committee Meetings and how many months before a decision would be reached to repel aggression?

 

The problems with Brexit negotiations stem from the self serving greedy corrupt Politicians. If we had been better served, none of this present situation would have happened. I feel deeply ashamed of them, so don't villainise someone for voting Leave, put the blame where it belongs.

 

By the way Spirou, I too class myself as European. It stems from the fact that many of my forebears are buried in Europe, many have no known grave.

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2018-12-13 8:50 AM

 

spirou - 2018-12-12 8:53 AM

 

Buying property and obtaining residence are two very different things. One involves a bundle of cash, the other... not so much. Even legally moving permanently between different EU!! countries is a complex undertaking involving numerous visits to various institutions and government offices over several years before being granted permanent residency. Having enough money helps a tiny little bit, having a job waiting quite a bit more, neither is enough for permanent residence but together might be just enough for temporary status.

 

You'll just have to believe me, I've gone through this absurd Kafkaesque experience when my wife moved over. A friend tried/is trying to do the same with a non-EU resident and as far as I know it's still nowhere near finished. My sister in-law moved her own business to London for a few years while her partner was doing post grad work and neither remember it as a fun bureaucratic experience even as temporary "self funded" residents. EU didn't make it easy, but it does make it a whole lot easier to move, open a business, sort out insurance, pay taxes, obtain citizenship etc. Post brexit? There will be a lot of "thanks for the job offer but ...hell no" and that goes both ways. I know plenty of (young) Brits working around EU who're getting f... by old farts who think they're stopping illegal immigration or whatever other b.s. reason they can think of. All the while sitting at a "british" pub in Calp, Benidorm or some other horrible enclave.

 

If you want to be an isolated island, go be one and see how that works out for you...

 

So you're just another Remoaner who thinks Brexiteers want to stop ALL migration? *-) ..........

 

You don't want to on go believing your own propaganda..... as we want "common sense" controlled migration ;-) ........

 

Which is why I raised the point about the Russians out here.........clearly the EU or Schengen is not stopping them from living here long term.........So why should it prevent us when we leave the EU? :-| ........

 

BTW the only pubs in this horrible enclave are Irish :D .........

 

 

Flipping heck Dave! Its perfectly simple. Unless you apply for a permanent residence permit or apply to be a Spanish citizen (the latter you have to give up your old citizenship and passport the former not) all you or the Russians well get is 90 days in Spain unless your prepared to wing it like you seem to be, Going on how the Spanish have treat ex pats with dodgy second homes in land grabs etc in the past where all has not been above board I would suggest anyone with property there "winging" it is taking big risks.

 

So your Russians have either gone through the required applications for a permit, are simply using them as holiday homes or are there illegally.

 

Despite all the hair brained schemes and dodges you keep trying to come up with, like the rest of us your going to be restricted to 90 days max in any 180 and there is no getting around it. Well there is, hope that Brexit is abandoned. Have you listened to yourself? You have banged on for what seems like years on Chatterbox about the dreaded "Free movement" bloody illegal immigrants etc but your trying to become one.