Guest pelmetman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-15 11:29 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 10:49 PM Barryd999 - 2019-01-15 10:32 AM Anyway if Antony's post about Sunderland is correct it should be a landslide for Leave so you have nothing to fear from a second referendum have you? Exactly........so there's no point >:-) ........... Well there is because then you can really hold the moral high ground. The people will have voted for something they now can be in no doubt as to what it entails and if you win you can enjoy your Brexit safe in the knowledge that the remainers really have no more arguments for another vote or that you didnt know what you were voting for etc. Even Farage was warming to it tonight. Look at the options. There is no kind of deal that can command a majority in Parliament. There is certainly no majority or even a mandate for no deal and the clock is ticking as you like to remind us. Who is going to break the impasse? Unfortunately there's not enough time to arrange one ;-) ............and extending article 50 will seriously p*ss off the public who overwhelmingly just want Brexit over >:-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-15 11:30 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-15 11:24 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 10:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-15 5:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 8:47 AM Bulletguy - 2019-01-14 11:56 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-14 10:50 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-14 5:02 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-14 11:52 AM Barryd999 - 2019-01-14 11:41 AM Hmm. Well it looks like the EU is preparing to extend article 50 until "at least" July. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/13/eu-preparing-to-delay-brexit-until-at-least-july What are you going to do about your countdown thread? (lol) I actually hope they stick to their guns and only extend it for either a GE or a second ref as giving May an extension just to revise her current deal or dress it up better for Parliament will just see us kicking the can down the road where we will be at impasse once again in July. Meanwhile a group of cross party MPs including the very clever Dominic Grieve have drafted proposed legislation for a second referendum. https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/14/second-brexit-referendum-looking-likely-remainer-mps-join-forces-may-defeat-8342440/ It recommends that the proposed question is should the UK remain in the Eu or accept the Prime Minister deal. This was what the Peoples vote was all about really. Ratifying whatever deal was eventually worked out and if its not what you wanted having the option to remain. If we remember just about every politician stated in the past that "nobody voted for no deal" etc. No deal should really not be an option now as its totally avoidable now that we know we can revoke article 50 on our own. If this government allow the UK to crash out knowing how damaging that will be then its for purely selfish reasons as there is no mandate for it. Surely what is being proposed above is the only way out now. Of course if they are the only two options I suspect remain will walk it if the opinion polls are even remotely half accurate. If there is another vote then there should be 2 questions ;-) ......... 1.........Accept Mays deal.... 2.........Leave with No Deal...... We've already voted on whether we want to leave the EU *-) .......... You took part in a non-binding advisory referendum on the latter which you seem to think is cast in stone. It's not and never was. Even triggering article 50 did not mean we were obliged by law to leave within two years (which you still think it does), as the electorate were told by the man who drew up the legislation, not only could it be reversed, it could be withdrawn. The referendum also only asked a question....it didn't state what the outcome would be of leaving. Now people have seen what they face. There's also the small matter of parliamentary sovereignty you lot trumpeted about wanting it protected......yet now want to trample all over it, yet again, to get your Brexit at any cost. "On Thursday, 23rd June there will be a referendum......" No mention of it being advisory? *-) ........... Neither was there any mention of it being legally binding as it wasn't, hence the term 'advisory'. All referendums in UK are 'advisory'. Neither did it state what the outcome of leaving would entail......many have since found far more out on that much to their horror. Neither was there mention of the facts stated in my previous post about article 50. You've ignored inconvenient truths all along throughout the past two and half years and continue to do so even when it's staring you in the face. The only thing that is being ignored is democracy by you Remoaners *-) ........... It's not "democracy" you want though is it? You want what half the rest of the country don't and believe they have no right to challenge anything on Brexit. That's a dictatorship.....not democracy. May doesn't like democracy as it's let her down in the past and given her recent threats of 'my deal or no deal', i'm astonished anyone at all can support such which is borderline fascism. You parrot your silly little mantra about "will of the people" where what you really mean is 'will of 51.9%' who voted for something they had absolutely no idea of the future consequences. That's now become much more clear as people realise 1000's of jobs are going to be lost and businesses moving out. You've remained oblivious and totally uncaring about these facts throughout purely because it doesn't affect any of your family. I have no problem with Remoaners having another referendum ;-) ............. But to be fair they should just wait 40 years like I had to *-) .......... You never cared 40 years ago and unlikely didn't 5 years ago either yet still can't give a credible explanation as to how you believe leaving the EU is going to benefit you personally. You just saw the referendum as a 'game' to 'play' with no knowledge of the dire consequences it would bring. A vote now is the only solution with the basic choices being Remain or May's Deal.....each clearly explaining the benefits and losses. No Deal is not an option unless we can isolate the lunatics and put them on an island of their own. It would of course be far easier to immediately withdraw Art50 which would stabalise the economy plus restore security to employment. As has already been pointed out........there's no point as the polls indicate that Remoaners are 2% down on where they were before the 2016 referendum >:-) .......... So much for all that hot air that folk were changing their minds *-) .......... Talking about "changing minds" you've just gone from "having no problem with Remainers having another referendum" (to be correct it would be the electorate), to "there's no point" in the space of two posts! *-) Also you don't follow polls.....only pro-Brexity ones which tell you what you want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-01-15 11:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 11:30 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-15 11:24 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 10:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-15 5:04 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-15 8:47 AM Bulletguy - 2019-01-14 11:56 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-14 10:50 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-14 5:02 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-14 11:52 AM Barryd999 - 2019-01-14 11:41 AM Hmm. Well it looks like the EU is preparing to extend article 50 until "at least" July. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/13/eu-preparing-to-delay-brexit-until-at-least-july What are you going to do about your countdown thread? (lol) I actually hope they stick to their guns and only extend it for either a GE or a second ref as giving May an extension just to revise her current deal or dress it up better for Parliament will just see us kicking the can down the road where we will be at impasse once again in July. Meanwhile a group of cross party MPs including the very clever Dominic Grieve have drafted proposed legislation for a second referendum. https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/14/second-brexit-referendum-looking-likely-remainer-mps-join-forces-may-defeat-8342440/ It recommends that the proposed question is should the UK remain in the Eu or accept the Prime Minister deal. This was what the Peoples vote was all about really. Ratifying whatever deal was eventually worked out and if its not what you wanted having the option to remain. If we remember just about every politician stated in the past that "nobody voted for no deal" etc. No deal should really not be an option now as its totally avoidable now that we know we can revoke article 50 on our own. If this government allow the UK to crash out knowing how damaging that will be then its for purely selfish reasons as there is no mandate for it. Surely what is being proposed above is the only way out now. Of course if they are the only two options I suspect remain will walk it if the opinion polls are even remotely half accurate. If there is another vote then there should be 2 questions ;-) ......... 1.........Accept Mays deal.... 2.........Leave with No Deal...... We've already voted on whether we want to leave the EU *-) .......... You took part in a non-binding advisory referendum on the latter which you seem to think is cast in stone. It's not and never was. Even triggering article 50 did not mean we were obliged by law to leave within two years (which you still think it does), as the electorate were told by the man who drew up the legislation, not only could it be reversed, it could be withdrawn. The referendum also only asked a question....it didn't state what the outcome would be of leaving. Now people have seen what they face. There's also the small matter of parliamentary sovereignty you lot trumpeted about wanting it protected......yet now want to trample all over it, yet again, to get your Brexit at any cost. "On Thursday, 23rd June there will be a referendum......" No mention of it being advisory? *-) ........... Neither was there any mention of it being legally binding as it wasn't, hence the term 'advisory'. All referendums in UK are 'advisory'. Neither did it state what the outcome of leaving would entail......many have since found far more out on that much to their horror. Neither was there mention of the facts stated in my previous post about article 50. You've ignored inconvenient truths all along throughout the past two and half years and continue to do so even when it's staring you in the face. The only thing that is being ignored is democracy by you Remoaners *-) ........... It's not "democracy" you want though is it? You want what half the rest of the country don't and believe they have no right to challenge anything on Brexit. That's a dictatorship.....not democracy. May doesn't like democracy as it's let her down in the past and given her recent threats of 'my deal or no deal', i'm astonished anyone at all can support such which is borderline fascism. You parrot your silly little mantra about "will of the people" where what you really mean is 'will of 51.9%' who voted for something they had absolutely no idea of the future consequences. That's now become much more clear as people realise 1000's of jobs are going to be lost and businesses moving out. You've remained oblivious and totally uncaring about these facts throughout purely because it doesn't affect any of your family. I have no problem with Remoaners having another referendum ;-) ............. But to be fair they should just wait 40 years like I had to *-) .......... You never cared 40 years ago and unlikely didn't 5 years ago either yet still can't give a credible explanation as to how you believe leaving the EU is going to benefit you personally. You just saw the referendum as a 'game' to 'play' with no knowledge of the dire consequences it would bring. A vote now is the only solution with the basic choices being Remain or May's Deal.....each clearly explaining the benefits and losses. No Deal is not an option unless we can isolate the lunatics and put them on an island of their own. It would of course be far easier to immediately withdraw Art50 which would stabalise the economy plus restore security to employment. As has already been pointed out........there's no point as the polls indicate that Remoaners are 2% down on where they were before the 2016 referendum >:-) .......... So much for all that hot air that folk were changing their minds *-) .......... Talking about "changing minds" you've just gone from "having no problem with Remainers having another referendum" (to be correct it would be the electorate), to "there's no point" in the space of two posts! *-) Also you don't follow polls.....only pro-Brexity ones which tell you what you want to hear. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. The line chart shows a consistent preference for remain from January 2018 (with the exception of a few weeks in early March 2018) to the present, with an upkick between 11 and 14 January 2019 to its highest yet level, as above. The trend, at present, is in favour of remain. But Brexit is, in any case, a unicorn. First, there is no version that results in forecast economic benefits over what we have now. Second, it cannot be implemented in the absence of a solution to the Irish border. The Irish border problem cannot be solved without physical border controls, because post Brexit it would become a land border between the UK and the EU, at which there must be customs and immigration checks. Customs and immigration checks cannon be introduced along the border for two reasons. First, the Belfast Agreement, under which no such installations are permissible. Second, because, due to the physical nature of the border, the installation of any such check points is impractical, save in a few locations. The Irish border is itself the product of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (A UK Act of Parliament)which came into force in 1921. It is basically an unpoliceable administrative border that was never supposed to become an international border. It has never previously been a proper international border, which is why it has survived in its present form. The UK and the Republic of Ireland "fudged" its creation by removing checks on cross-border movements, from soon after its creation up until the time at which both the UK and Ireland simultaneously joined the EEC in 1973. Once both were in the EEC (but especially after the Single European Act of 1993 created the European Single Marked), it became more or less irrelevant (apart from various periods during "the troubles") as freedom of movement, in conjunction with the pre-existing agreements on UK-Ireland movements, rendered it no more than a line on a map. It has no relevance as a border until the UK leaves that EU, but at that point, under whatever form of Brexit is adopted, it assumes huge political, economic, security, and practical significance. Since it is a British idea, and since our MPs should all be aware of at least its potential as a flashpoint under the Belfast Agreement, it is inexplicable that no-one even mentioned it as an issue (so far as I can remember) during the whole of the Brexit debate before the referendum, and that it has only emerged as an issue in the latter stages of the negotiations on the withdrawal agreement. It is the Gordian Knot that renders Brexit a unicorn. So, unless and until someone works out how to untie it, Brexit cannot take place. It is an entirely British construct, which under present circumstances seems to me a tad ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. The line chart shows a consistent preference for remain from January 2018 (with the exception of a few weeks in early March 2018) to the present, with an upkick between 11 and 14 January 2019 to its highest yet level, as above. The trend, at present, is in favour of remain. . Did I miss read this poll to? :D ............ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Results for: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? (asked on referendum day) Fieldwork end date Pollster 23 June 2016 Poll by Ipsos MORI Remain a member of the EU 55% Leave the EU 45% Just goes to show.......that all your Remoaner whinging has achieved is a 2% drop in the polls >:-) ......... It appears that the Unicorns were wrong........there hasn't been a swing to Remain (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 12:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. The line chart shows a consistent preference for remain from January 2018 (with the exception of a few weeks in early March 2018) to the present, with an upkick between 11 and 14 January 2019 to its highest yet level, as above. The trend, at present, is in favour of remain. . Did I miss read this poll to? :D ............ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Results for: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? (asked on referendum day) Fieldwork end date Pollster 23 June 2016 Poll by Ipsos MORI Remain a member of the EU 55% Leave the EU 45% Just goes to show.......that all your Remoaner whinging has achieved is a 2% drop in the polls >:-) ......... It appears that the Unicorns were wrong........there hasn't been a swing to Remain (lol) ......… Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 12:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. The line chart shows a consistent preference for remain from January 2018 (with the exception of a few weeks in early March 2018) to the present, with an upkick between 11 and 14 January 2019 to its highest yet level, as above. The trend, at present, is in favour of remain. . Did I miss read this poll to? :D ............ https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Results for: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? (asked on referendum day) Fieldwork end date Pollster 23 June 2016 Poll by Ipsos MORI Remain a member of the EU 55% Leave the EU 45% Just goes to show.......that all your Remoaner whinging has achieved is a 2% drop in the polls >:-) ......... It appears that the Unicorns were wrong........there hasn't been a swing to Remain (lol) ......… Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 You also have to take into account that the way polls are done now is supposedly much more accurate than it was in 2016 but never the less there has not been an apparent massive swing but then if you look at some of the surveys in Brexit heartlands there apparently and the Peoples votes sticky boards in all the towns across the country tell a different story but then you see the Sunderland poll that Antony posted the other day which apparently shows 70% in favour of no deal which seems impossible to believe so what does that all tell us? Absolutely feck all really. I would tend to think the tracker poll is reasonably accurate but here is the thing. We wont really be able to properly gauge UK wide opinion until there is another campaign and everyone is engaged again. My summary would be as I Said the other day. People that are engaged are generally entrenched in their views and those that are not engaged are no more the wiser than they were two and a half years ago. There has to be some way out of this Impasse and I cannot see another way out other than putting it back to the people. Dominic Grieve has tabled a bill for next Wednesday which IMO is way too early but he is mega clever and could just be the bloke that sorts out the mess. There are not the numbers yet though and why he thinks there might be in a weeks time I dunno. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-second-eu-referendum-dominic-grieve-bills/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-01-16 1:52 PM You also have to take into account that the way polls are done now is supposedly much more accurate than it was in 2016 but never the less there has not been an apparent massive swing but then if you look at some of the surveys in Brexit heartlands there apparently and the Peoples votes sticky boards in all the towns across the country tell a different story but then you see the Sunderland poll that Antony posted the other day which apparently shows 70% in favour of no deal which seems impossible to believe so what does that all tell us? Absolutely feck all really. I would tend to think the tracker poll is reasonably accurate but here is the thing. We wont really be able to properly gauge UK wide opinion until there is another campaign and everyone is engaged again. My summary would be as I Said the other day. People that are engaged are generally entrenched in their views and those that are not engaged are no more the wiser than they were two and a half years ago. There has to be some way out of this Impasse and I cannot see another way out other than putting it back to the people. Dominic Grieve has tabled a bill for next Wednesday which IMO is way too early but he is mega clever and could just be the bloke that sorts out the mess. There are not the numbers yet though and why he thinks there might be in a weeks time I dunno. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-second-eu-referendum-dominic-grieve-bills/ What evidence do you have that the polls have improved? :-S ...........They got it wrong for the election as well didn't they? *-) ............. Besides what happens if you have another referendum and we vote for leave again......what then? :-| .........best of 3? >:-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 dbl post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. Pelmethead doesn't do that 'reading stuff'. He looks at snappy soundbites, headers or pictures. This was what he needed off his own link and it's that big and in pretty colours, i don't know how he missed it. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 3:49 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. Pelmethead doesn't do that 'reading stuff'. He looks at snappy soundbites, headers or pictures. This was what he needed off his own link and it's that big and in pretty colours, i don't know how he missed it. :-| Well done Bullet ;-) .......... The poll on the day of the referendum showed 55% for Remain........So after 2 and a half years of belly aching you have dropped in the polls (lol) (lol) (lol) ............ So much for the massive swing to Remain you keep on bleating about *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dups-arlene-foster-says-there-was-never-a-hard-border-in-ireland-37714456.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 10:56 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 3:49 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. Pelmethead doesn't do that 'reading stuff'. He looks at snappy soundbites, headers or pictures. This was what he needed off his own link and it's that big and in pretty colours, i don't know how he missed it. :-| Well done Bullet ;-) .......... The poll on the day of the referendum showed 55% for Remain........ The poll you posted, what you proudly called your "poll of polls" dated 14th January 2019 shows Remain in a very clear lead. I've no idea why but somehow you misconstrued this into showing the amazing 'strength' of your Brexit cause when it shows the absolute opposite! Still sure about the security of that second vote? (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... But you voted to "take back control" of "our" borders didn't you? That was one of the silly soundbites trumpeted by the Brexit camp. None of 'em told you about the Good Friday Agreement and tonight Ireland left UK Gov in no doubt at all over where they stand on that. That is sacrosanct. Meddle with that and there will be serious trouble. No it never was "the EU creating a problem"........you lot created it because 1) you were ill informed and 2) naive. Brexiters have got to start taking responsibility for the mess you've created instead of blaming the EU all the time because you've had all this pointed out to you numerous times, just the same as Brian did over migration but you haven't taken the slightest bit of notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:11 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 10:56 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 3:49 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 12:34 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 9:41 AM...………………………….. The poll I listed was the poll of polls ;-) ........... https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls/ Which shows that Remoaners have lost 2% compared to where they were the day before the actual referendum :D .............. So there's no point in wasting money on another referendum *-) ........ Besides if we did have one and you won........that would only be advisory wouldn't it? >:-) ........... Dave, there is no way to say this gently, but you seem to have misread the charts. The bar chart shows remain on 54% and leave on 46%, which is a much wider difference in favour of remain than was achieved in the referendum by leave. Pelmethead doesn't do that 'reading stuff'. He looks at snappy soundbites, headers or pictures. This was what he needed off his own link and it's that big and in pretty colours, i don't know how he missed it. :-| Well done Bullet ;-) .......... The poll on the day of the referendum showed 55% for Remain........ The poll you posted, what you proudly called your "poll of polls" dated 14th January 2019 shows Remain in a very clear lead. I've no idea why but somehow you misconstrued this into showing the amazing 'strength' of your Brexit cause when it shows the absolute opposite! Still sure about the security of that second vote? (lol) Your missing the point ;-) ........... On the day of the referendum Remoaners had a even bigger lead according to the polls.............and you still LOST :D ............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:22 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... But you voted to "take back control" of "our" borders didn't you? That was one of the silly soundbites trumpeted by the Brexit camp. None of 'em told you about the Good Friday Agreement and tonight Ireland left UK Gov in no doubt at all over where they stand on that. That is sacrosanct. Meddle with that and there will be serious trouble. No it never was "the EU creating a problem"........you lot created it because 1) you were ill informed and 2) naive. Brexiters have got to start taking responsibility for the mess you've created instead of blaming the EU all the time because you've had all this pointed out to you numerous times, just the same as Brian did over migration but you haven't taken the slightest bit of notice. There's no mention of the border in the Good Friday agreement *-) .............. For the simple reason there never has been one ;-) ........... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:32 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:22 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... But you voted to "take back control" of "our" borders didn't you? That was one of the silly soundbites trumpeted by the Brexit camp. None of 'em told you about the Good Friday Agreement and tonight Ireland left UK Gov in no doubt at all over where they stand on that. That is sacrosanct. Meddle with that and there will be serious trouble. No it never was "the EU creating a problem"........you lot created it because 1) you were ill informed and 2) naive. Brexiters have got to start taking responsibility for the mess you've created instead of blaming the EU all the time because you've had all this pointed out to you numerous times, just the same as Brian did over migration but you haven't taken the slightest bit of notice. There's no mention of the border in the Good Friday agreement *-) .............. For the simple reason there never has been one ;-) ........... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement Belfast Agreement......pedant. *-) Commonly known as GFA because it was drawn up on Good Friday. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The border Brexiters couldn't "take back control" of........because they forgot about it! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The border Brexiters couldn't "take back control" of........because they forgot about it! (lol) (re-edited link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:36 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:32 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:22 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... But you voted to "take back control" of "our" borders didn't you? That was one of the silly soundbites trumpeted by the Brexit camp. None of 'em told you about the Good Friday Agreement and tonight Ireland left UK Gov in no doubt at all over where they stand on that. That is sacrosanct. Meddle with that and there will be serious trouble. No it never was "the EU creating a problem"........you lot created it because 1) you were ill informed and 2) naive. Brexiters have got to start taking responsibility for the mess you've created instead of blaming the EU all the time because you've had all this pointed out to you numerous times, just the same as Brian did over migration but you haven't taken the slightest bit of notice. There's no mention of the border in the Good Friday agreement *-) .............. For the simple reason there never has been one ;-) ........... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement Belfast Agreement......pedant. *-) Commonly known as GFA because it was drawn up on Good Friday. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement So where does it mention the border? ;-) ..............Pedant :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:59 PM Barryd999 - 2019-01-16 1:52 PM You also have to take into account that the way polls are done now is supposedly much more accurate than it was in 2016 but never the less there has not been an apparent massive swing but then if you look at some of the surveys in Brexit heartlands there apparently and the Peoples votes sticky boards in all the towns across the country tell a different story but then you see the Sunderland poll that Antony posted the other day which apparently shows 70% in favour of no deal which seems impossible to believe so what does that all tell us? Absolutely feck all really. I would tend to think the tracker poll is reasonably accurate but here is the thing. We wont really be able to properly gauge UK wide opinion until there is another campaign and everyone is engaged again. My summary would be as I Said the other day. People that are engaged are generally entrenched in their views and those that are not engaged are no more the wiser than they were two and a half years ago. There has to be some way out of this Impasse and I cannot see another way out other than putting it back to the people. Dominic Grieve has tabled a bill for next Wednesday which IMO is way too early but he is mega clever and could just be the bloke that sorts out the mess. There are not the numbers yet though and why he thinks there might be in a weeks time I dunno. https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-second-eu-referendum-dominic-grieve-bills/ What evidence do you have that the polls have improved? :-S ...........They got it wrong for the election as well didn't they? *-) ............. Besides what happens if you have another referendum and we vote for leave again......what then? :-| .........best of 3? >:-) ........... Why do you keep coming out with the same old Brexiteer soundbite of "best of three"? Firstly this would be the third vote as the one in 2016 was the second on our Eu membership and secondly if leave win on another referendum then that would be it for the time being at least. If Leave lose then your more than welcome to start another campaign for yet another one which is exactly what Vote Leave did when they thought they were about to lose the last referendum as it was them that started the biggest petition in history for another referendum which gained 4.1 million signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM.......................... 1 There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before......... 2 Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ 3 The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... 1 Correct, as should have been clear from what I wrote, had you read it. 2 Incorrect. UK and Ireland both joined on 1 Jan 1973. 3 You just don't get it do you? If the UK leaves the EU the status of the Irish border will change to something it has never previously been - right back to and including the Lordship of Ireland in 1177! Post Brexit, that entirely accidental 310 mile border with 270 road crossings, that straggles around most of Ulster, that is virtually invisible and unmarked except on maps, that wanders through villages, that crosses people gardens, that wanders across fields, meanders along river banks, and crosses loughs, will become the only land border between the UK and the EU. That is what will be different. It is that which will, one way or another, have to have ways of preventing people, livestock, and goods, from crossing uncontrolled (remember that bit about taking control of our borders?). And, when that happens, the Belfast Agreement (Good Friday Agreement, Irish Peace Agreement, whatever you prefer) will automatically be breached. So, how long after that before the IRA start accumulating the means to remove whatever barriers, checkpoints etc are erected to secure the border, and how long after that before someone's army (and it will be the British army, won't it, at the request of the DUP and others?) are sent to stop the IRA, and then, of course, the UVF will just have to join in the fun. And if you think they have all just gone away, you really do live in cloudcuckoo land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-01-17 9:04 AM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:36 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:32 PM Bulletguy - 2019-01-16 11:22 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 11:06 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 2:50 PM pelmetman - 2019-01-16 1:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 1:06 PM Well, did you, as you didn't link to it? Even so, it shows a preference for remain, doesn't it, which is what the other polls all show. Just remind me what the percentage in favour of leave was in the referendum. Besides, you ignore the nearly flat line in favour of remain over the past year, apart from those few weeks in early March 2018. But, you also ignore the Irish border Gordian Knot. It doesn't matter a hoot what people want, however much they stamp their feet and wail, they can't have Brexit unless and until the Irish border issue is solved. It isn't anyone else's problem to solve, it is an entirely UK created problem, and it only arises in the event of Brexit - any form of Brexit. So, it is for those who want Brexiters to solve, or Brexit is, and always was, dead. How did you miss this link? https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-on-referendum-day-2/ Whilst you ignore the FACT that prior to the last Referendum, Remain had a even bigger lead for months prior to the actual vote ;-) ...........Yet you still LOST :D ...... As for the so called Irish border problem........there is no problem unless the EU or Ireland decide to create one *-) ........... How did I miss that link? Because you didn't link to it in the post I replied to. Ah, now I understand, you're encouraged to see a poll that shows remain in the majority because you think that must mean that leave is, actually, in the majority. That is on the basis that the pre-referendum polls overestimated the remain vote, so must still be overestimating. OK, if you say so. :-D Irish border. There is a problem. It is not true to say that there will only be a problem if the EU or Ireland creates one. There has to be a physical border, at which goods and people can be checked. With the Irish border, that is for all practical purposes impossible. Without such controls, where is the undertaking, under Brexit, to "take back control of our borders". There are no border controls between Ireland and France so, in the absence of border controls between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there would be no control points between the UK and the EU. Think of all those migrants waiting in France to enter the UK. Job done! All they need is a few coaches, and Bob's your Uncle. :-D Can you find another EU land border anywhere with no border controls? It cannot be done. As soon as border controls were introduced (assuming anyone could envisage a way to implement them) the Belfast Agreement (AKA the Good Friday Agreement) would be breached. That has potentially the most serious results for the UK of all, whoever actually tried to close the border. You may imagine that the UK would be able to hold up its hands and walk off saying "it weren't me mate", but no-one is going to wear that, are they? They'll all know that it was the Brexiters in the UK who voted for the border to be closed. At that point you will no longer be dealing with state entities, you will be dealing with a number of militias who answer only to themselves. If you think you're a bit hard and unyielding, you ain't seen nothing. You must have been in at least your 30's when the Belfast Agreement was signed, so you must be aware of it - and of what had been going on in the UK and Ulster since 1974. There was never a hard customs border between Ireland and NI before.........Nor when the Irish joined the EU a year earlier than us in 73 *-) ............ The EU are just creating a problem for their own ends >:-) ......... But you voted to "take back control" of "our" borders didn't you? That was one of the silly soundbites trumpeted by the Brexit camp. None of 'em told you about the Good Friday Agreement and tonight Ireland left UK Gov in no doubt at all over where they stand on that. That is sacrosanct. Meddle with that and there will be serious trouble. No it never was "the EU creating a problem"........you lot created it because 1) you were ill informed and 2) naive. Brexiters have got to start taking responsibility for the mess you've created instead of blaming the EU all the time because you've had all this pointed out to you numerous times, just the same as Brian did over migration but you haven't taken the slightest bit of notice. There's no mention of the border in the Good Friday agreement *-) .............. For the simple reason there never has been one ;-) ........... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement Belfast Agreement......pedant. *-) Commonly known as GFA because it was drawn up on Good Friday. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement So where does it mention the border? ;-) ..............Pedant :D ......... Read the Agreement and stop being so bloody bone idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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