Guest pelmetman Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-02 3:01 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-02 12:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-02 12:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-01 9:58 PM Well this is interesting ;-) .......... "A Local Border Traffic RegimeSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• has been established for border residents who frequently need to cross the external borders of the Union. It enables EU States to conclude bilateral agreements with their neighbouring non-EU countries so that the border residents can travel back and forth without a Schengen visa and, therefore, without any impediment to trade, social and cultural interchange in the region concerned." https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing It appears the EU doesn't have issues with other non EU countries borders *-) ......... Perhaps that's because they're not a NET provider of dosh to the EU >:-) .......... Jeez! Do you ever read anything, or even look at the pictures? First the bi-laterals relate to "border residents", second there is a requirement to check them through the border (to establish their credibility, and third to be able to do the checks there has to be a crossing control in a hard border. Look what the nice border guard is standing in while he checks what? Oh, a passport! Come on Dave, little grey cells! :-D So there's going to be a border guard on all 270 roads into NI? (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... Come on Brian, your little grey cells are more than a bit desperate methinks :D ........... That is exactly what the EU's regulations require for the policing of its external border. So yes, as things stand border posts on every one of those 270 odd crossing points, right down to the country lanes. I said this way back but, as usual, you didn't read it. So every road into the EU has a border guard? (lol) (lol) (lol) .............. That must be why they've been so successful at preventing illegal migrants >:-) ........ Blimey Brian.......You really have sold your brain cells to the lowest Remoaner bidder 8-) ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-02 3:29 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-02 3:01 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-02 12:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-02 12:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-01 9:58 PM Well this is interesting ;-) .......... "A Local Border Traffic RegimeSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• has been established for border residents who frequently need to cross the external borders of the Union. It enables EU States to conclude bilateral agreements with their neighbouring non-EU countries so that the border residents can travel back and forth without a Schengen visa and, therefore, without any impediment to trade, social and cultural interchange in the region concerned." https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing It appears the EU doesn't have issues with other non EU countries borders *-) ......... Perhaps that's because they're not a NET provider of dosh to the EU >:-) .......... Jeez! Do you ever read anything, or even look at the pictures? First the bi-laterals relate to "border residents", second there is a requirement to check them through the border (to establish their credibility, and third to be able to do the checks there has to be a crossing control in a hard border. Look what the nice border guard is standing in while he checks what? Oh, a passport! Come on Dave, little grey cells! :-D So there's going to be a border guard on all 270 roads into NI? (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... Come on Brian, your little grey cells are more than a bit desperate methinks :D ........... That is exactly what the EU's regulations require for the policing of its external border. So yes, as things stand border posts on every one of those 270 odd crossing points, right down to the country lanes. I said this way back but, as usual, you didn't read it. So every road into the EU has a border guard? (lol) (lol) (lol) .............. That must be why they've been so successful at preventing illegal migrants >:-) ........ Blimey Brian.......You really have sold your brain cells to the lowest Remoaner bidder 8-) ...... This is like the seventh circle of hell! No Dave it is not what happens at every border in the EU. It is what happens at every external (i. e. between an EU state and a non - EU state) EU border. So, when the UK (which includes Northern Ireland) leaves the EU and becomes a third country, it will cease to be an EU state but, as Ireland will remain an EU state, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland will become a (new) external EU border, and will therefore become subject to EU rules for its external borders. You seem to be having such difficulty visualising this, that my guess is you've never driven through a "normal" road border crossing (since you say you were too young to vote in the 1975 referendum), so aren't familiar with the way they work. All the EU requires is "normal" border control points, as at every other international border crossing. If you had done as I suggested in another string, and used Google Earth to look at the border crossing configurations down its eastern border from Finland/Russia right down to Greece/Turkey, you would see endless examples of normal crossing points where roads cross national boundaries. Then, you might understand. You will also see a lot of examples of what the crossing points look like on rail crossings, which will become relevant in some way on the Dublin-Belfast line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-02 1:39 PM Here you go a simple explanation of the need for the backstop https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809 Realy June 2016 the world has moved on a bit since then, :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-02 4:20 PM No Dave it is not what happens at every border in the EU. It is what happens at every external (i. e. between an EU state and a non - EU state) EU border. Really really? :D ....... Well it's hardly impervious is it (lol) (lol) (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 More wishful thinking Brian? :D .......... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6662857/Sinn-Feins-President-backs-referendum-united-Ireland-theres-hard-border.html "A hard border after Brexit will mean a referendum on a united Ireland, the president of Sinn Fein predicted today." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 No Dave, not wishful thinking, you are merely repeating what I have already said. A border poll is eminently possible, but the decision on when it should be held is in the hands of Westminster, through the Sec of State for NI, as laid out in the GFA. The question then is twofold: 1) depending on when the UK will formally leave the EU, 2) whether a border poll could be arranged and completed by that date? What I have been saying is that as things stand at present, 1) is an unknown and the answer to 2) is almost certainly no, if for no other reason than that set out above - it would finish the Conservative government, and the Sec of State for NI is a Conservative minister, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. So, as things stand (in deeply uncertain fog!) I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance of an early border poll. But, as I have said from the start, things keep changing, so the turkeys may yet change their voting habits. But, if nothing changes we shall, under the Lisbon Treaty, leave the EU on 29 March, without a deal. At that point the Irish/NI border will become an issue that, to date, no-one has solved, and a few MPs are only now beginning to look into. If 29 March happens, all bets are off - and that is the only thing that is clear. That, after two fruitless years of so-called negotiations between a government that had, and has, no cogent idea what it wants from Brexit, both within itself and in opposition to an EU that has made its position admirably clear from the start. Aspects of the Irish border problem date back to agreements made between UK and Ireland in 1923, others to the Common Travel Area, others to various treaties the UK has negotiated and signed since UK joined the EC/EU, others as are set out in the GFA. How could the UK government have ben unaware of all these issues? Look at the history of UK accession to the Treaty of Rome. We first applied to join in 1961, under Macmillan, with Ireland, Norway, and Denmark. De Gaulle said non to UK, and all four applications were suspended. The application was resurrected in 1967 by Wilson, again with Ireland and Norway, again De Gaulle said non, and again all applications failed. Finally, still with Ireland, Norway and Denmark, we applied, and were accepted, in 1973 under Heath. In both the second and third applications Norway withdrew following national referendums. (Both Denmark and Ireland co-ordinated their applications with those of the UK because of their close economic ties to the UK.) Despite all of that history, Cameron et all "forgot about/overlooked" the Irish border issue when proposing the Brexit referendum in the 2015 Conservative election manifesto, and didn't "remember" it until after the referendum, when it arose during the Brexit negotiations. And yet, that issue had been dogging UK Irish relations since the 1916 Irish rising. Notwithstanding all that UK involvement, it was never mentioned during the whole referendum campaign. Words fail! And yet, despite that litany of incompetence by this government that points, in letters the height of Mt Everest, that they are way out of their collective depth, still totally disunited, and still have not a shred of a plan, you continue to believe in unicorns. Who knows? With the inmates in charge of the madhouse, maybe unicorns do exist after all - if only in the deranged minds of the inmates - or maybe the men in white coats will arrive and take them all away and sanity will descend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarveyHeaven Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Tracker - 2019-01-31 3:41 PM Not a subject I know a lot about but some years ago we crossed by road from Denmark into Sweden, Sweden into Norway, Norway into Finland, Finland back into Sweden then Sweden into Denmark all without any impediment despite the varying status of each country and currency so if it worked for them why not for Ireland? But then the Danes, Swedes, Norwegians and Finns are not renowned for blowing up anything they disagree with? But then the Danes, Swedes, Norweigians and Finns haven't occupied/annexed a section of their neighbours countries are they?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-04 10:08 AM No Dave, not wishful thinking, you are merely repeating what I have already said. A border poll is eminently possible, but the decision on when it should be held is in the hands of Westminster, through the Sec of State for NI, as laid out in the GFA. The question then is twofold: 1) depending on when the UK will formally leave the EU, 2) whether a border poll could be arranged and completed by that date? What I have been saying is that as things stand at present, 1) is an unknown and the answer to 2) is almost certainly no, if for no other reason than that set out above - it would finish the Conservative government, and the Sec of State for NI is a Conservative minister, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. So, as things stand (in deeply uncertain fog!) I don't think there is a cat in hell's chance of an early border poll. But, as I have said from the start, things keep changing, so the turkeys may yet change their voting habits. But, if nothing changes we shall, under the Lisbon Treaty, leave the EU on 29 March, without a deal. At that point the Irish/NI border will become an issue that, to date, no-one has solved, and a few MPs are only now beginning to look into. If 29 March happens, all bets are off - and that is the only thing that is clear. That, after two fruitless years of so-called negotiations between a government that had, and has, no cogent idea what it wants from Brexit, both within itself and in opposition to an EU that has made its position admirably clear from the start. Aspects of the Irish border problem date back to agreements made between UK and Ireland in 1923, others to the Common Travel Area, others to various treaties the UK has negotiated and signed since UK joined the EC/EU, others as are set out in the GFA. How could the UK government have ben unaware of all these issues? Look at the history of UK accession to the Treaty of Rome. We first applied to join in 1961, under Macmillan, with Ireland, Norway, and Denmark. De Gaulle said non to UK, and all four applications were suspended. The application was resurrected in 1967 by Wilson, again with Ireland and Norway, again De Gaulle said non, and again all applications failed. Finally, still with Ireland, Norway and Denmark, we applied, and were accepted, in 1973 under Heath. In both the second and third applications Norway withdrew following national referendums. (Both Denmark and Ireland co-ordinated their applications with those of the UK because of their close economic ties to the UK.) Despite all of that history, Cameron et all "forgot about/overlooked" the Irish border issue when proposing the Brexit referendum in the 2015 Conservative election manifesto, and didn't "remember" it until after the referendum, when it arose during the Brexit negotiations. And yet, that issue had been dogging UK Irish relations since the 1916 Irish rising. Notwithstanding all that UK involvement, it was never mentioned during the whole referendum campaign. Words fail! And yet, despite that litany of incompetence by this government that points, in letters the height of Mt Everest, that they are way out of their collective depth, still totally disunited, and still have not a shred of a plan, you continue to believe in unicorns. Who knows? With the inmates in charge of the madhouse, maybe unicorns do exist after all - if only in the deranged minds of the inmates - or maybe the men in white coats will arrive and take them all away and sanity will descend! I guess we'll just have to watch this space ;-) ........ But in my view NI days are numbered :-| ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 So now a "united" Tory party is looking at more "alternative arrangements" which will satisfy the ERG group, this apparently involves using technology in place of a hard border. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/may-appoints-brexit-hardliners-to-backstop-working-group-1.3780898#.XFd3MRLx2w8 I love the idea that yet again "technology" is going to mean we don't need a hard border, showing the the Tory party preoccupation with goods not people. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone running around crossing the border with barcodes on their foreheads. What they are actually doing is playing the press, they will present their new arrangement to the EU, who will say that we've already explained why this can't work - not least because cannot control immigration without checkpoints, the press will then blame the nasty EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-04 10:35 AM So now a "united" Tory party is looking at more "alternative arrangements" which will satisfy the ERG group, this apparently involves using technology in place of a hard border. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/may-appoints-brexit-hardliners-to-backstop-working-group-1.3780898#.XFd3MRLx2w8 I love the idea that yet again "technology" is going to mean we don't need a hard border, showing the the Tory party preoccupation with goods not people. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone running around crossing the border with barcodes on their foreheads. What they are actually doing is playing the press, they will present their new arrangement to the EU, who will say that we've already explained why this can't work - not least because cannot control immigration without checkpoints, the press will then blame the nasty EU. Its just pathetic, it really is. Savid Javid told Marr yesterday that his border force says it can be done but oddly never actually explained how and Marr never pressed him. Heres the thing though. If it could be done why have we not got Tech firms banging on the door saying "WE HAVE THE SOLUTION!"? The world is full of the most amazing technology and some pretty clued up people and tech companies. What higher profile project could there be anywhere in the world right now with everyone watching than this? The answer is of course its Unicorn technology and it simply does not exist. There is some pretty hi tech border systems around the world but they are there to support a hard border, they cannot replace a hard border. The only solution to avoiding a hard border in Ireland is SM And CU. Always has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-02-04 11:08 AM Fast Pat - 2019-02-04 10:35 AM So now a "united" Tory party is looking at more "alternative arrangements" which will satisfy the ERG group, this apparently involves using technology in place of a hard border. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/may-appoints-brexit-hardliners-to-backstop-working-group-1.3780898#.XFd3MRLx2w8 I love the idea that yet again "technology" is going to mean we don't need a hard border, showing the the Tory party preoccupation with goods not people. I'm looking forward to seeing everyone running around crossing the border with barcodes on their foreheads. What they are actually doing is playing the press, they will present their new arrangement to the EU, who will say that we've already explained why this can't work - not least because cannot control immigration without checkpoints, the press will then blame the nasty EU. Its just pathetic, it really is. Savid Javid told Marr yesterday that his border force says it can be done but oddly never actually explained how and Marr never pressed him. Heres the thing though. If it could be done why have we not got Tech firms banging on the door saying "WE HAVE THE SOLUTION!"? The world is full of the most amazing technology and some pretty clued up people and tech companies. What higher profile project could there be anywhere in the world right now with everyone watching than this? The answer is of course its Unicorn technology and it simply does not exist. There is some pretty hi tech border systems around the world but they are there to support a hard border, they cannot replace a hard border. The only solution to avoiding a hard border in Ireland is SM And CU. Always has been. The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-02-04 11:08 AM.........………... The only solution to avoiding a hard border in Ireland is SM And CU. Always has been. Or reunification - be fair! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-04 12:01 PM...………………..The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Dave, you really don't get this at all, do you? It is already an issue, no one is making it an issue. It is an issue the UK has been nurturing, in various ways, for over 100 years, but especially since 2016. It will only cease to be an issue if it can be negotiated away, which seems pretty much impossible, or Ireland reunifies - which requires an affirmative border poll to initiate. So, until that poll takes place - and one vote won't swing it, it'll need a very clear majority), the border is a very serious issue. I've explained 'till I'm blue in the face the reasons why an early poll is a virtual impossibility and, in the absence of that, why we will be left with the issue post Brexit. Denying that is about as sensible as shaking dodgy nitro! Q: Why do you think a group of Tory MP are now being tasked to come up with workable alternatives? A: BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-04 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-04 12:01 PM...………………..The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Dave, you really don't get this at all, do you? It is already an issue, no one is making it an issue. It is an issue the UK has been nurturing, in various ways, for over 100 years, but especially since 2016. It will only cease to be an issue if it can be negotiated away, which seems pretty much impossible, or Ireland reunifies - which requires an affirmative border poll to initiate. So, until that poll takes place - and one vote won't swing it, it'll need a very clear majority), the border is a very serious issue. I've explained 'till I'm blue in the face the reasons why an early poll is a virtual impossibility and, in the absence of that, why we will be left with the issue post Brexit. Denying that is about as sensible as shaking dodgy nitro! Q: Why do you think a group of Tory MP are now being tasked to come up with workable alternatives? A: BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE! Its only an issue because the EU see it as a ruse to stop their meal ticket from leaving! *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-04 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-04 12:01 PM...………………..The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Dave, you really don't get this at all, do you? It is already an issue, no one is making it an issue. It is an issue the UK has been nurturing, in various ways, for over 100 years, but especially since 2016. It will only cease to be an issue if it can be negotiated away, which seems pretty much impossible, or Ireland reunifies - which requires an affirmative border poll to initiate. So, until that poll takes place - and one vote won't swing it, it'll need a very clear majority), the border is a very serious issue. I've explained 'till I'm blue in the face the reasons why an early poll is a virtual impossibility and, in the absence of that, why we will be left with the issue post Brexit. Denying that is about as sensible as shaking dodgy nitro! Q: Why do you think a group of Tory MP are now being tasked to come up with workable alternatives? A: BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE! I heard on a programme today the NHS are going to start using smart meters to monitor dementia patients to see when they are boiling a kettle or cooking a meal. Perhaps be a good idea to fit one in Pelmets van so the men in white coats know when he's connecting to the internet. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-04 4:38 PM...…………..Its only an issue because the EU see it as a ruse to stop their meal ticket from leaving! *-) ......... No Dave, it becomes an issue when we Brexit, because at that point the Irish/NI border becomes a normal international land border. How many times do I have to say this? It also becomes the EU / Schengen / EEA area external border. Such control points were all over the Europe, at every border between countries, until the formation of the EEC. As I said before, they are in place now, all down the EU's eastern border from Russia to Turkey. "Normal", for an international land border, and for the external border of the EU / Schengen area / EEA, is a Customs / Immigration control point on one side, a short stretch of "no man's land" (that allows for border queues) that crosses the border proper, and then another Customs / Immigration control point the other side. So, on arrival, you check out of one country, traverse the no man's land, and then check into the next country. I know this because I have been through them in the past, and the fixed installations of quite a few still exist, 'though are now unmanned and abandoned. This is not a spontaneously dreamed up punishment regime invented by the EU to avert Brexit, it is exactly what was always going to happen to the border between NI and Ireland when the UK left the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-02-04 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-04 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-04 12:01 PM...………………..The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Q: Why do you think a group of Tory MP are now being tasked to come up with workable alternatives? A: BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE! Its only an issue because the EU see it as a ruse to stop their meal ticket from leaving! *-) ......... As we pay more to Northern Ireland than to the EU on an annual basis do you not think the DUP might not be worried about their meal ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-02-04 5:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-04 4:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-02-04 12:33 PM pelmetman - 2019-02-04 12:01 PM...………………..The NI border will soon be history, so there's no point in making it an issue ;-) ......... Q: Why do you think a group of Tory MP are now being tasked to come up with workable alternatives? A: BECAUSE IT IS AN ISSUE! Its only an issue because the EU see it as a ruse to stop their meal ticket from leaving! *-) ......... As we pay more to Northern Ireland than to the EU on an annual basis do you not think the DUP might not be worried about their meal ticket? So another potential referendum bonus B-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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