Leisure battery discharging whilst driving!

[Alanb]

Rob,

 

If B2 -ve is not linked to either the chassis, or to B1 -ve, via a sound high current connection, the charging circuit from the alternator to B2 will be degraded. A voltmeter may give a misleading if there is a poor connection in this area.

 

I do hope that you get the problem corrected in a timely manner.

 

Alan

[tviall]

I have a similar issue with my 2016 Renault master based Adria.

There are occasions that with the engine running I can see a discharge from my leisure battery of up to 15 amps!

My Renault has stop start technology and a smart alternator. When the alternator deems the starter battery has sufficient charge it switches off. At that point instead of charging both the starter battery and leisure battery, the leisure battery discharges. Quite often I would arrive on site with a completely dead leisure battery despite having charged it on EHU a number of days before. However if I trick the alternator into not switching off by having the cab fan on for example the alternator continues to charge both batteries as per normal.

Now I don't know if this is the same issue that you have but it's worth a try. When you start the engine always leave the cab fan on and see if that makes a difference.

My control unit is a Nordelettronica NE237 and is either not working properly or clearly not happy with a smart alternator set up.

[spirou]

In your case it's the smart alternator and Adria seems to have forgotten to add a crucial piece in the wiring.

 

https://www.promobil.de/tipp/moderne-batterie-ladesysteme-probleme-wohnmobil/

[tviall]

spirou - 2019-05-31 3:39 AM

 

In your case it's the smart alternator and Adria seems to have forgotten to add a crucial piece in the wiring.

 

https://www.promobil.de/tipp/moderne-batterie-ladesysteme-probleme-wohnmobil/

 

Wow. Thank you for posting this link. I have been struggling to get some to acknowledge this fault. This report mentions Merc engines although I am aware of a Fiat Ducati based Adria that has a same leisure battery discharge issue and I don't think he has a smart alternator.

 

Can I ask, how did you find this link? Do you have the same problem? Are you in or connected with the trade? PM me if you want.

[Alanb]

tviall - 2019-05-30 10:32 PM

 

I have a similar issue with my 2016 Renault master based Adria.

There are occasions that with the engine running I can see a discharge from my leisure battery of up to 15 amps!

My Renault has stop start technology and a smart alternator. When the alternator deems the starter battery has sufficient charge it switches off. At that point instead of charging both the starter battery and leisure battery, the leisure battery discharges. Quite often I would arrive on site with a completely dead leisure battery despite having charged it on EHU a number of days before. However if I trick the alternator into not switching off by having the cab fan on for example the alternator continues to charge both batteries as per normal.

Now I don't know if this is the same issue that you have but it's worth a try. When you start the engine always leave the cab fan on and see if that makes a difference.

My control unit is a Nordelettronica NE237 and is either not working properly or clearly not happy with a smart alternator set up.

 

tviall,

 

A good suggestion, which has not previously been considered, perhaps because Robdav suggested in a post made on 29th March, that his problem was something that had developed during a then current trip.

Robdav is now wondering whether that was a correct assumption.

 

Regarding your own problem regarding a smart alternator, you may find this thread interesting. It is a long thread, so I suggest starting at Arthur 49's post on 9th April.

 

Alan

 

[Derek Uzzell]

As will be evident from this GOOGLE-search, potential problems charging auxiliary (leisure) batteries on vehicles with ‘smart’ alternators have been warned about for some time.

 

https://tinyurl.com/y23yy9z7

 

As far as I’m aware no Fiat Ducato-based motorhome built by a major motorhome manufacturer is fitted (or has been fitted) with a ’smart’ alternator.

 

 

[spirou]

I found the link by reading promobil once in a while :-D

[robdav]

A long overdue update on the original subject of this thread. I have supposedly had both the CBE DS300 (distribution/fuse box) and the CBE PC210 (control panel) replaced by the dealer under warranty. However, I remain unconvinced the issue of the leisure battery not charging whilst driving is fully resolved.

 

The leisure battery is certainly no longer discharging whilst driving. However, my question to anyone who knows the CBE kit is whether there is any ‘inbuilt intelligence’ around what levels to charge to i.e. full charge, trickle charge etc. I’m wondering if the actual battery voltage is calibrated correctly with the control panel. The battery had barely been used and after a drive home of over an hour it was not showing as fully charged whereas an equivalent time in the sun with the solar panel charging, it would have been.

 

Another question I have is does the DS 300 control which source charges the battery so only one source can charge or does it allow both split charge relay and the solar panel to charge the battery at the same time? Or EHU and solar panel at the same time for that matter?

 

Thanks again, Rob

 

[Alanb]

Robdav,

 

To confirm the charging via the split charge relay, use a separate mutimeter and check the voltages across the terminals of both batteries, with the engine running. Perhaps best to carry out test with a slightly discharged habitation battery, as this could help check for poor connections. I cannot remember, but did you find out how the negatives of the two batteries are connected together? This connection is an important part of the split charge system. The link could be via the solar controller, but there should have been a connection prior to your solar installation being fitted.

 

The CB516 is a smart charger, with bulk, absorbtion, and float stages. The solar controller should be similar, but they will probably not work in harmony. To the best of my knowledge ther is no other inbuilt intelligence.

 

The readings on my CBE PC200 control unit can be adjusted to correspond with separate meter or thermometer readings. As procedures may differ, may I refer you to your CBE manual.

When two chargers are connected to a battery, the charge sharing will be decided by the internal characteristics of the chargers.

 

Your CBE DS300 B2 +ve terminal has three cables attached. There is no way that the CBE unit can influence that connection, other than by the operation of the split charge relay.

 

Have I answered all of your questions?

 

 

Alan

[robdav]

Alanb - 2019-08-28 9:38 PM

 

Robdav,

 

To confirm the charging via the split charge relay, use a separate mutimeter and check the voltages across the terminals of both batteries, with the engine running. Perhaps best to carry out test with a slightly discharged habitation battery, as this could help check for poor connections. I cannot remember, but did you find out how the negatives of the two batteries are connected together? This connection is an important part of the split charge system. The link could be via the solar controller, but there should have been a connection prior to your solar installation being fitted.

 

The CB516 is a smart charger, with bulk, absorbtion, and float stages. The solar controller should be similar, but they will probably not work in harmony. To the best of my knowledge ther is no other inbuilt intelligence.

 

The readings on my CBE PC200 control unit can be adjusted to correspond with separate meter or thermometer readings. As procedures may differ, may I refer you to your CBE manual.

When two chargers are connected to a battery, the charge sharing will be decided by the internal characteristics of the chargers.

 

Your CBE DS300 B2 +ve terminal has three cables attached. There is no way that the CBE unit can influence that connection, other than by the operation of the split charge relay.

 

Have I answered all of your questions?

 

 

Alan

 

Yes, thanks Alan.

[robdav]

I realised I never finalised this thread only for it to occur again!

 

The dealer ended up replacing both the control panel and the distribution box and the problem appeared to be fixed.

 

It then started happening again, so back it went. This time they said one of the coach builder’s sockets in the B pillar had come lose and they had sorted it.

 

Well, it’s been fine for about 12 months until yesterday. I noticed via the battery monitor that the leisure battery was discharging while the engine was running (the stereo is wired to run from the leisure battery hence the discharging)

 

I took the bottom panel off the B pillar and located where Fiat present the coach builder’s sockets and the connector from the engine battery to the leisure battery. No apparent lose connections.

 

However, after checking all the connections were tight, putting some cable ties in place, I started the engine and all was fine so I put the panel back. Started the engine again to check, no charging happening! Repeated the procedure, same again.

 

As per this document https://www.fiatforum.com/downloads.php?do=download&downloadid=550

I checked what the 3 wires used by Pilote in the Coach-builder’s socket are. Two of them don’t seem to make any sense but ‘13 Key-on power (+KEY) from F49’ does. So, I individually popped each pin out, checked the connections were good and replaced them.

 

Long story short I’m stuck. It’s something in the B pillar that’s causing the problem. I can’t face the dealership again!

 

I did come across one black thing stuck to the side of the B pillar. Photo attached. Does anyone know what it is?

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[Robinhood]

My guess would be the step buzzer (or anything else you might need a retraction warning for).

[robdav]

Robinhood - 2020-06-22 3:12 PM

 

My guess would be the step buzzer (or anything else you might need a retraction warning for).

 

Great, that makes sense. Thanks.

[Robinhood]

Given that the issue might well be in the area of the coachbuilders socket, other than 13, which are the two other pins that are populated?

[robdav]

I think I've got it.

 

It appears to be the connector connecting the engine battery with the leisure battery.

 

Pushing the cables into the socket makes it work, pulling them slightly and it doesn’t.

 

So it’s not the actual connector, there is a yellow clip inside the connector which on inspection has yellow plastic clips, shining a torch in I could only see one clip. Once I removed it you can clearly see the clip is missing/snapped off on one side and signs of plastic wear.

 

The socket has ‘MTA’ printed on it and according to product catalogue on their website the yellow part is called the ‘secondary lock’ page 92 http://www.mta.it/en/product-catalogue

 

Now to see if I can double check which socket it actually is and get the part.

 

I hope this helps someone. The connector appearing to be OK and connected is obviously not enough. Will report back.

[Robinhood]

So, that's the connection described on page 97 of the "Upfitters Manual".

 

The male and female p/n for these are shown there as MTA 45.40400 and 45.40300 respectively, but the "45" numbers are bulk order ones. Smaller orders are "44" numbers.

 

I can't find those particular "45" numbers from the "Upfitters Manual" in the MTA catalogue, but you will note that the p92 entry you highlighted has the same numbers as the "Upfitters Manual" values, but with 44 substituted for "45" on the smaller order quantities.

 

I suspect you have found the correct connector type (not least because I can find some references to 4440400 and the Promaster RAM converters socket). both "45" and "44" are worth searching.

 

Not easy to find by a UK seller, but if a Fiat dealer can't source, then this might help:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CONNECTOR-HOUSING-POWER-FEMALE-2-WAY-MTA-4540400-PRICE-FOR-1-PC/262751207264

 

...not over-expensive, even with the postage.

[robdav]

Thanks. That's the one I've ordered.

 

Interesting that the male side of the connector also has yellow clips but the one in my van doesn't have any yellow visible. I have ordered one of each.

 

In the meantime I have tried taping the cables securely.

 

[Alanb]

Robdav,

 

Congratulations on your success.

 

I, and I hope most of the other contributors to the thread, will gain some satisfaction from the fact that we were pointing to the right area.

 

The yellow parts on MTA connectors, individual fuseholders, and fuseboards are locking bars. They secure the terminals, in addition to the latches on the individula connector inserts. You need to remove the locking bars, before attempting to remove any individual connector insert. As you have suggested, perhaps all that is required is a new locking bar.

 

Alan

 

 

[robdav]

Alanb - 2020-06-22 6:39 PM

 

Robdav,

 

Congratulations on your success.

 

I, and I hope most of the other contributors to the thread, will gain some satisfaction from the fact that we were pointing to the right area.

 

The yellow parts on MTA connectors, individual fuseholders, and fuseboards are locking bars. They secure the terminals, in addition to the latches on the individula connector inserts. You need to remove the locking bars, before attempting to remove any individual connector insert. As you have suggested, perhaps all that is required is a new locking bar.

 

Alan

 

 

Yes, thanks to all who've helped!

 

Annoying that this problem probably could've been resolved much more easily and quickly.

 

Hopefully it will help someone else.

[robdav]

FINAL UPDATE - I promise, but it may help someone else.

 

Also, if anyone else was sceptical, like me, that a plastic clip was the cause of the problem….

 

The plastic clip I bought off eBay arrived from Italy today so I went out to fit it. It wouldn’t fit in and I looked down the plug and could see it hadn’t been crimped very well. I took it out of the plug and immediately realised what the problem was. The guy/girl at Pilote in France hadn’t crimped it properly. He hadn’t exposed enough copper wire and clamped it properly (see photo). It’s amazing it ever worked but it also explains the intermittency.

 

So, although it appeared to be a good connection, the engineers at the dealership hadn’t spotted it, nor did their independent auto electrician and nor did I, initially.

 

Thanks again to all that helped. Happy to have a working van and confident it’s been fixed this time!

[Alanb]

robdav,

 

Thanks for the update. You do not have to apologise for drawing attention to the root cause of your problem.

 

I am sorry, but I cannot fully agree with your conclusions. There was adequate length of stripped conductor. It would protrude slightly beyond the conductor crimp, if inserted correctly with the end of the insulation butting against the conductor crimp.

 

Further the crimping of the insulation part of the crimp appears to be poorly performed.

 

Judging from the score marks on the end of the terminal, it seems that the connector has not been fully mated with its female counterpart.

 

On a separate issue, I depracate your use of the term "engineer" - a degree level professionally qualified person, to denote a technician. Unfortunately, this error is all too common, and is propogated by several national organisations.

 

 

 

 

[robdav]

Alan

 

There was enough room to get a sheet of paper between the copper wires and the connector pin so I am fairly confident there wasn't much of a connection.

 

See attached pic.

 

Rob