Leisure battery discharging whilst driving!

[Will86]

Could someone kindly explain why the solar panel(s) are not suspected.

 

I'm a person who knows nothing but applies an inquisitive mind. (it was my business for 50 years)

[robdav]

Will86 - 2019-04-01 6:39 PM

 

Could someone kindly explain why the solar panel(s) are not suspected.

 

I'm a person who knows nothing but applies an inquisitive mind. (it was my business for 50 years)

 

I did try removing the fuse from the solar charge controller but it made no difference.

 

Thanks though.

[Keithl]

Will86 - 2019-04-01 6:39 PM

 

Could someone kindly explain why the solar panel(s) are not suspected.

 

I'm a person who knows nothing but applies an inquisitive mind. (it was my business for 50 years)

 

Will,

 

AIUI unless there is a relay powered by the solar panels which disconnects the engine feed then they will not have any effect on Rob's predicament. And to confirm he has pulled the fuse and it made no difference.

 

Rob,

 

With the engine both off and on what are the voltages between the GND and B1 and B2 terminals.

 

Keith.

[robdav]

Keithl - 2019-04-01 7:27 PM

 

Will86 - 2019-04-01 6:39 PM

 

Could someone kindly explain why the solar panel(s) are not suspected.

 

I'm a person who knows nothing but applies an inquisitive mind. (it was my business for 50 years)

 

Will,

 

AIUI unless there is a relay powered by the solar panels which disconnects the engine feed then they will not have any effect on Rob's predicament. And to confirm he has pulled the fuse and it made no difference.

 

Rob,

 

With the engine both off and on what are the voltages between the GND and B1 and B2 terminals.

 

Keith.

 

Hi Keith

 

Will measure and update tomorrow. Not in the van this evening!

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[Alanb]

Rob,

 

Some interesting photos, with excellent detail!

 

I agree with you regarding the D+ relay wiring.

 

As regards further investigation that is your choice, but if you can fix the problem you will be able to continue your trip without limitation.

 

I have already suggested as has Keith, that you seek out and check the connections to the starter battery, both positive and negative.

 

Next have you checked that fuse F2 (50A) and connections are OK?

 

Is the split charge relay on the DS300 being operated? A good clue will be the display of the battery coupling symbol on the control unit. If this symbol does not appear when the engine is running (could need 1500rpm or so) you may have a problem with the ignition feed to the DS300.

 

May I refer to your second and third photographs. To the left of the split charge a two pole connector is just visible. It appears to have a yellow wire in the upper pole (pin 1), and a white wire in the lower pole (pin2).

 

Pin 1 is the ignition controlled input, which is used to operate the split charge relay when charging voltage is reached. You should see nominal 12v on pin 1 when the ignition is switched ON. (Pin 2 is the mains connected signal from the battery charger.)

 

Also please note in second photo, the extreme RHS 3A fuse with the battery coupling symbol below. This fuse is, as the icon suggests associated with the simulated D+. It is worth checking this fuse, particularly as it appears to lack the white 3A rating figure of its neighbour. Has it been changed previously?

 

I see that while I have been writing Keith has requested some voltage checks. There should be minimal voltage difference between the B1+ve and B2+ve terminals with the engine running.

 

Alan

[aandncaravan]

Rob, I agree with Keith's approach, and wonder if has asked you to read off the voltage of B1+ as it seems close to the Gnd, which if it was loose, may have touch taking out the fuse from the Starter battery to B1?

 

 

If there is no voltage at B1, then trace back along the B1+ cable looking for a 'Boite Relais de Securite' white box or any other maxi style fuse.

 

My pictures are too big to post here, but have a look towards the bottom of this web page :

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php

for a CBE schematic of a DS3xx and below that can be found images of a Boite Relais de Securite, schematics and internal views, diagrams, etc.

You might find the big flat fuse has blown, maybe?

 

 

If there is a voltage at both B1+ and B2+, do they both rise when the engine is started? The habitation B2+ voltage won't rise as high as the Starter but should get past about 13.8v on fast idle.

.

While you have the engine running, switch the Fridge to 12v because if there is a 'D+ issue', it will most likely affect BOTH the Fridge and charging as they use the same trigger signal. That may help later help Keith diagnose if it is a 'trigger' fault or a specific relay issue.

 

 

Sorry, I will butt out now and leave it to Keith, I am at the hospital tomorrow and possibly Wednesday so just wanted to feed these ideas and images in now while I was having a 'good moment'.

 

 

[robdav]

aandncaravan - 2019-04-01 9:05 PM

 

Rob, I agree with Keith's approach, and wonder if has asked you to read off the voltage of B1+ as it seems close to the Gnd, which if it was loose, may have touch taking out the fuse from the Starter battery to B1?

 

 

If there is no voltage at B1, then trace back along the B1+ cable looking for a 'Boite Relais de Securite' white box or any other maxi style fuse.

 

My pictures are too big to post here, but have a look towards the bottom of this web page :

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php

for a CBE schematic of a DS3xx and below that can be found images of a Boite Relais de Securite, schematics and internal views, diagrams, etc.

You might find the big flat fuse has blown, maybe?

 

 

If there is a voltage at both B1+ and B2+, do they both rise when the engine is started? The habitation B2+ voltage won't rise as high as the Starter but should get past about 13.8v on fast idle.

.

While you have the engine running, switch the Fridge to 12v because if there is a 'D+ issue', it will most likely affect BOTH the Fridge and charging as they use the same trigger signal. That may help later help Keith diagnose if it is a 'trigger' fault or a specific relay issue.

 

 

Sorry, I will butt out now and leave it to Keith, I am at the hospital tomorrow and possibly Wednesday so just wanted to feed these ideas and images in now while I was having a 'good moment'.

 

 

Hi Allan

 

I've got some time to work on this tomorrow.

 

More importantly, hope you're OK and hospital visit is nothing serious!

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

 

[robdav]

So I tested fuse 10 which in the DS00 manual is labelled as "3A fuse for OUT D+ simulated exit position" it failed a continuity test and visually looked broken. Replaced it with a good 3A fuse and now the step and satellite dish automatically close when the engine is started which stopped working so early on I thought it was a figment of my imagination!

 

Nothing appears to have changed regarding the discharging, the van has been on hookup overnight so perhaps I would not see charge going into the batteries, what is the criteria for the alternator to do so?

 

The battery coupling symbol on the control unit is displayed when the engine is running, so is the engine running symbol.

 

Voltage readings

 

Engine not running

Ground and B1 - 12.92

Ground and B2 - 13.02

 

Engine running

Ground and B1 - 12.96

Ground and B2 - 12.96

 

I cannot see a Boite Relais de Securite anywhere.

 

Keen to diagnose further.

[Brian Kirby]

robdav - 2019-04-06 1:26 PM

 

So I tested fuse 10 which in the DS00 manual is labelled as "3A fuse for OUT D+ simulated exit position" it failed a continuity test and visually looked broken. Replaced it with a good 3A fuse and now the step and satellite dish automatically close when the engine is started which stopped working so early on I thought it was a figment of my imagination!

 

Nothing appears to have changed regarding the discharging, the van has been on hookup overnight so perhaps I would not see charge going into the batteries, what is the criteria for the alternator to do so?

 

The battery coupling symbol on the control unit is displayed when the engine is running, so is the engine running symbol.

 

Voltage readings

 

Engine not running

Ground and B1 - 12.92

Ground and B2 - 13.02

 

Engine running

Ground and B1 - 12.96

Ground and B2 - 12.96

 

I cannot see a Boite Relais de Securite anywhere.

 

Keen to diagnose further.

The voltages with the engine running are odd. You should be seeing 14V or a little more. I'm just wondering (not expert! :-)) if there is a high resistance somewhere between the Ground terminal and the alternator? As both B1 and B2 voltages are consistent (with the engine running), it seems unlikely to me that the fault could be in the supply wiring. Couldn't be that famous engine earth strap, for exemple, could it?

[robdav]

Brian Kirby - 2019-04-06 5:04 PM

 

robdav - 2019-04-06 1:26 PM

 

So I tested fuse 10 which in the DS00 manual is labelled as "3A fuse for OUT D+ simulated exit position" it failed a continuity test and visually looked broken. Replaced it with a good 3A fuse and now the step and satellite dish automatically close when the engine is started which stopped working so early on I thought it was a figment of my imagination!

 

Nothing appears to have changed regarding the discharging, the van has been on hookup overnight so perhaps I would not see charge going into the batteries, what is the criteria for the alternator to do so?

 

The battery coupling symbol on the control unit is displayed when the engine is running, so is the engine running symbol.

 

Voltage readings

 

Engine not running

Ground and B1 - 12.92

Ground and B2 - 13.02

 

Engine running

Ground and B1 - 12.96

Ground and B2 - 12.96

 

I cannot see a Boite Relais de Securite anywhere.

 

Keen to diagnose further.

The voltages with the engine running are odd. You should be seeing 14V or a little more. I'm just wondering (not expert! :-)) if there is a high resistance somewhere between the Ground terminal and the alternator? As both B1 and B2 voltages are consistent (with the engine running), it seems unlikely to me that the fault could be in the supply wiring. Couldn't be that famous engine earth strap, for exemple, could it?

 

Hi Brian

 

Thanks, I need to check the starter battery connections tomorrow.

 

Where should the earth strap run from, the alternator to the chassis? I just need to know where to look.

 

Thanks again

 

Rob

[spirou]

Obviously a connection between leisure and starter battery is made with engine running but it seems to me the alternator is not actually charging either of them. The question is whether the engine eventually dies when voltage drops too low? What happens if you have headlights, radio etc. on? Since batteries are now parallel so double capacity it will obviously take longer to get to ~10.5V when I seem to remember the ECU shut down the engine when a friend had a duff alternator.

[Keithl]

spirou - 2019-04-06 7:35 PM

 

Obviously a connection between leisure and starter battery is made with engine running but it seems to me the alternator is not actually charging either of them. The question is whether the engine eventually dies when voltage drops too low? What happens if you have headlights, radio etc. on? Since batteries are now parallel so double capacity it will obviously take longer to get to ~10.5V when I seem to remember the ECU shut down the engine when a friend had a duff alternator.

 

Rob has previously reported that the starter battery voltage DOES rise to 14.4 V when the engine is running so proving the alternator is working.

 

There appears to be a broken link between the starter battery and habitation electrics, the signal line is working but not the heavier cable to actually carry the current!

 

Keith.

[Alanb]

Keithl - 2019-04-06 7:54 PM

 

Rob has previously reported that the starter battery voltage DOES rise to 14.4 V when the engine is running so proving the alternator is working.

 

Keith.

 

Sorry Keith,

 

I have browsed the thread several times, but I am unable to find such a statement. This leads me to agree with Spirou.

 

If in fact as Spirou suggests,neither battery is being charged by the alternator, the situation is not just inconvenient for Rob, it's serious as it could result in a vehicle breakdown.

 

Rob,

 

If Spirou is correct may I suggest that your first priority is to confirm that the starter battery is being charged with the engine running. To eliminate any effect from the habitation electrics, I suggest removing 50A fuse F2, while measuring starter battery (B1) voltage.

 

Also can you please confirm that you are taking the measurement across the starter battery terminals.

 

Alan

[Keithl]

Alanb - 2019-04-06 11:16 PM

 

Keithl - 2019-04-06 7:54 PM

 

Rob has previously reported that the starter battery voltage DOES rise to 14.4 V when the engine is running so proving the alternator is working.

 

Keith.

 

Sorry Keith,

 

I have browsed the thread several times, but I am unable to find such a statement. This leads me to agree with Spirou.

 

Alan

 

Sorry, my mistake, I got confused with the almost identical thread by Rexy!

 

As you where gents.

 

Keith.

[robdav]

So the starter battery reads 14.42 with the engine running so the alternator is obviously doing it's job. However it would seem this current is not making it's way to the DS300. I have checked the earth strap which is in good condition (being inside the vehicle) and all connections appear tight.

 

At this point, having checked all the obvious with all your help, it's over to the dealer now I'm back home!

 

Thanks again.

 

Rob

[Keithl]

Thanks for the update Rob and please report back with what the dealer finds, if only to help anyone with a similar fault in the future.

 

Keith.

[aandncaravan]

Rob, yes worth checking the battery clamp midi fuses, but I can't see them being faulty because :

 

The Alternator charge is getting through it's fuse to the starter battery.

 

You have 12v at the DS300 B1+, so that has connection through to the Starter.

 

You have 12v at the DS300 B2+, so that has connectivity through to the habitation battery.

 

 

 

It is as though the simulated D+ trigger for the Split Charge relay isn't working and I am now wondering if that might be related to the burnt 3a fuse and the D+ OUT breaking down a while ago?

I wonder if the DS300 has an issue in this area, but strange that the step, sat, etc now work?

Did you ever test if the Fridge worked on 12v with the engine running?

 

As a further test/temporary measure you could make up a short cable to go between the DS300 B1+ and the B2+ that has a 30a maxi fuse in the centre.

Just put in the fuse after you start the engine and remove it when you park up.

 

That would effectively allow you to manually connect the two batteries together to test that everything else works. Rule out Alternator, wiring, Earth issues, etc. and allow you to use the vehicle until you can get in to the Dealers, which might be busy this time of year?

At the very least give you more diagnostic information?

 

 

 

If it is a DS300 and does prove to be faulty, they are only about £80 from the likes of Rainbow conversions/Grasshopper Leisure, so maybe watch out for the Dealer putting on a big mark-up and possibly offer to supply your own unit?

 

 

[robdav]

aandncaravan - 2019-04-07 6:05 PM

 

Rob, yes worth checking the battery clamp midi fuses, but I can't see them being faulty because :

 

The Alternator charge is getting through it's fuse to the starter battery.

 

You have 12v at the DS300 B1+, so that has connection through to the Starter.

 

You have 12v at the DS300 B2+, so that has connectivity through to the habitation battery.

 

 

 

It is as though the simulated D+ trigger for the Split Charge relay isn't working and I am now wondering if that might be related to the burnt 3a fuse and the D+ OUT breaking down a while ago?

I wonder if the DS300 has an issue in this area, but strange that the step, sat, etc now work?

Did you ever test if the Fridge worked on 12v with the engine running?

 

As a further test/temporary measure you could make up a short cable to go between the DS300 B1+ and the B2+ that has a 30a maxi fuse in the centre.

Just put in the fuse after you start the engine and remove it when you park up.

 

That would effectively allow you to manually connect the two batteries together to test that everything else works. Rule out Alternator, wiring, Earth issues, etc. and allow you to use the vehicle until you can get in to the Dealers, which might be busy this time of year?

At the very least give you more diagnostic information?

 

 

 

If it is a DS300 and does prove to be faulty, they are only about £80 from the likes of Rainbow conversions/Grasshopper Leisure, so maybe watch out for the Dealer putting on a big mark-up and possibly offer to supply your own unit?

 

 

Thanks, what cable thickness (mm2) should I use?

[Brian Kirby]

robdav - 2019-04-06 7:21 PM...................................

Hi Brian

 

Thanks, I need to check the starter battery connections tomorrow.

 

Where should the earth strap run from, the alternator to the chassis? I just need to know where to look.

 

Thanks again

 

Rob

Hello Rob. Sorry to be slow replying. The engine earth strap runs from the gearbox to the chassis. It is a tinned, braided, uninsulated, copper connection. Unlikely (I think!) at he age of your van that it is corroded, but I did wonder if it may have a poor connection at either end. However, it seems my suggestion has not found favour with the experts, so probably not relevant.

 

I was just struck by the fact that the voltages at B1 and B2 were both identical, but below those to be expected. It seemed to me odd that both the starter battery connection and the leisure battery connection would have the exact same, but low, voltages.

[aandncaravan]

Robdav, it is only a short run and low current so 6mm should be fine.

 

 

 

Brian, your observation was spot on, and via a PM I sent Rob the link to our 'Earths issue' web page that shows a picture of one, and how to test for problems.

[Alanb]

robdav - 2019-04-06 1:26 PM

 

....................................................

Voltage readings

 

Engine not running

Ground and B1 - 12.92

Ground and B2 - 13.02

 

Engine running

Ground and B1 - 12.96

Ground and B2 - 12.96

 

.................................................

 

Keen to diagnose further.

 

Rob,

 

May I refer to your voltage readings quoted above.

 

I assume all of the quoted readings were taken at the DS300 terminals.

 

The voltages with the engine not running are not abnormal, and consistent with batteries in a reasonable state of charge.

 

The fact that the voltages are identical with the engine running, suggests that the split charge relay is operating correctly.

 

However your reading of 14.42V across the starter battery does not agree with the small 0.04V increase at the B1 terminal of the DS300.

 

Modern multimeters are extremely sensitive, and can give misleading results where high resistances are included in the tested circuit.

 

Keith has suggested that there is a high resistance in the charging circuit. This could be between starter battery +ve and the B1 terminal of the DS300.

 

The 50A B1 fuse is in this connection. May I suggest that if not already done, this fuse is checked for continuity.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robdav]

Alanb - 2019-04-07 8:36 PM

 

robdav - 2019-04-06 1:26 PM

 

....................................................

Voltage readings

 

Engine not running

Ground and B1 - 12.92

Ground and B2 - 13.02

 

Engine running

Ground and B1 - 12.96

Ground and B2 - 12.96

 

.................................................

 

Keen to diagnose further.

 

Rob,

 

May I refer to your voltage readings quoted above.

 

I assume all of the quoted readings were taken at the DS300 terminals.

 

The voltages with the engine not running are not abnormal, and consistent with batteries in a reasonable state of charge.

 

The fact that the voltages are identical with the engine running, suggests that the split charge relay is operating correctly.

 

However your reading of 14.42V across the starter battery does not agree with the small 0.04V increase at the B1 terminal of the DS300.

 

Modern multimeters are extremely sensitive, and can give misleading results where high resistances are included in the tested circuit.

 

Keith has suggested that there is a high resistance in the charging circuit. This could be between starter battery +ve and the B1 terminal of the DS300.

 

The 50A B1 fuse is in this connection. May I suggest that if not already done, this fuse is checked for continuity.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Alan

 

I have tested all the fuses except the ones on the battery terminals which I will do later.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[robdav]

Hi

 

Just updating on this topic.

 

First visit to dealer ended up deferring to an auto electrician.

 

Second visit to dealer, auto electrician reports that the CBE DS300 distribution switch needs replacing and possibly the CBE control panels as well. Now we find out how long a warranty claim takes!

 

[Alanb]

Rob,

 

Thanks for the update. I am very sceptical as to the PCxxx being in need of replacement, and sceptical about the DS300 being the cause of your problem. More likely to be a wiring fault, as you state that the system has worked OK previously.

 

My apologies if I have missed it in re-scanning the thread, but one question that I do not see asked is the following.

 

How is the habitation battery -ve connected to chassis, or starter battery negative?

 

In your photo I think that there are three cables connected to the DS300 -ve stud. I would expect these to be

a) Habitation battery (B2) negative pole.

b) Chassis or starter battery (B2) -ve pole. (Nothing appears in photo of B1, so perhaps chassis?)

c) Solar regulator -ve.

 

As you have a separate battery monitor, the shunt for this will most probably be connected between the -ve pole of B2, and the DS300 -ve stud. Therefore the it seems that the negative link to chassis is most likely connected between the DS300 side of the shunt and chassis, or is my logic flawed? Worth checking this area.

 

Alan

[robdav]

Alanb - 2019-05-21 8:07 PM

 

Rob,

 

Thanks for the update. I am very sceptical as to the PCxxx being in need of replacement, and sceptical about the DS300 being the cause of your problem. More likely to be a wiring fault, as you state that the system has worked OK previously.

 

My apologies if I have missed it in re-scanning the thread, but one question that I do not see asked is the following.

 

How is the habitation battery -ve connected to chassis, or starter battery negative?

 

In your photo I think that there are three cables connected to the DS300 -ve stud. I would expect these to be

a) Habitation battery (B2) negative pole.

b) Chassis or starter battery (B2) -ve pole. (Nothing appears in photo of B1, so perhaps chassis?)

c) Solar regulator -ve.

 

As you have a separate battery monitor, the shunt for this will most probably be connected between the -ve pole of B2, and the DS300 -ve stud. Therefore the it seems that the negative link to chassis is most likely connected between the DS300 side of the shunt and chassis, or is my logic flawed? Worth checking this area.

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan

 

I may have stated it worked previously but the more I think about it, it may not have. We picked the van up new this time last year and being the summer we may have survived off solar and EHU and it wasn't until the winter when I noticed the problem.

 

I'm slightly sceptical as well. I certainly don't think it's anything to do with the control panel but possibly the DS300.

 

The starter -ve is definitely attached to the chassis as per the photo in the thread. I don't know about the -ve of the habitation battery and the dealer has the van at the moment.

 

It's in their hands now and I hope they can sort it. I will report back.

 

Thanks

 

Rob