Mikebs Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 Hello Colin, I eagerly await any further info you can find regarding the Autocruise charging system. It does seems that we both have the same charging system from what you have described. Regarding the clamps. A mechanic friend had a look at mine and they were also seized and couldn't easily be released. In the end it was easier to destroy one and replace it with a nut & bolt. The other clamp did release after some persuasion.. I hadn't realised my "little" question would generate so much traffic. Thank you all for your replies. The knowledge on this forum has helped meal a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Hello Mike, I have found this forum so helpful in the past. Are you sure that you need to replace your batteries? Are they not holding the charge? I had to email Energy Management Products as they were away on some project so not sure how long it will take to get a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikebs Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 Hello Colin, On a recent 3 day stay off grid the batteries only effectively lasted for two days where as previously they would have lasted for the duration . I do have a CTEK battery charger MXS_5 so I might have a go at reconditioning the batteries but I'm sure how effective this process is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Mikebs - 2019-06-14 3:49 PM Hello Colin, I eagerly await any further info you can find regarding the Autocruise charging system. It does seems that we both have the same charging system from what you have described.. I hadn't realised my "little" question would generate so much traffic. Thank you all for your replies. The knowledge on this forum has helped me a great deal. The usual charger fitted in the Autocruise's around that time was the Amperor 250, 25a charger with a single profile of wet acid. If you look at your own units you will see there is no switching facility on the charger, it is fixed for a wet acid profile only. There are a few threads that have questioned the suitability of this charger for anything other than wet batteries, like this one : https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/amperor-25amp-charger.127672/ where one owner wrote to Amperor. "I did get a response from Amperor when I emailed them. They said that although it was meant for a lead/acid battery it should be OK for gel batteries as well but to check with the battery manufacturer that their batteries can accept a charging voltage of 14.5". We have repaired many Amperor's in the past, and were even re-sellers for the chargers for a while till they closed shop, so we know the electronics and functionality in detail. Although the very last versions had their voltage raised slightly it is still too low for an AGM to charge fully or quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Mikebs I’m wary of your idea to use the “RECOND” option of your CTEK MXS 5.0 battery-charger with your AGM batteries. The latest version of the MXS 5.0 charger has a specific AGM charging regimen https://www.ctek.com/products/vehicle/mxs-5-0 but the original MXS 5.0 (I have one) does not. For both current and previous MXS 5.0 models the RECOND option applies 15.8V for (as I understand the CTEK instructions!) up to 8 hours. This option is designed to desulphate batteries and - when the battery is normal wet-acid type - the battery should be expected to vent gas during the RECOND phase. The CTEK documentation for the earlier MXS 5.0 does not advise “Do not use the RECOND option with AGM or gel batteries" but on this YouTube video a 4-week-old comment from CTEK Support relating to AGM and RECOND says Hi. RECOND shall be used to Wet lead acid batteries once or twice a year. A wet battery is where the electrolyte is fluent within the battery (Not GEL or AGM batteries!) The charger will automatically fully charge before starting the RECOND, and it will continue with maintenance charging until the charger is disconnected from the battery or another mode is chosen. Best regards CTEK Support It has to be said that this advice seems to be at odds with what’s said on another CTEK webpage relating to the MXS 5.0 with the AGM charging feature “The RECOND and AGM options operate individually or together...” A GOOGLE-search on “CTEK AGM RECOND” may also be of interest. I think there’s a fair chance that, if you use the RECOND option on your AGM batteries that can currently cope with 2 days of off-site usage, you’ll damage them. Given that your 2007 Autocruise motorhome has the same Squadron AGM batteries as Colin’s 2007 vehicle (and the clamps on your motorhome were also seized) there’s a reasonable likelihood that your batteries are also the originals and now 12 years old. If you use the RECOND option and it harms the batteries, I guess this won’t much matter as it seems that they are on their way out and you were planning to replace them anyway - and you MIGHT get lucky and RECOND MIGHT do some good. However, I suggest you ask CTEK about the advisability of running RECOND on your AGM batteries before doing it, telling CTEK whether your MXS 5.0 charger has the AGM selection feature or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikebs Posted June 15, 2019 Author Share Posted June 15, 2019 Thank you for your replies. I will google “CTEK AGM RECOND” and then make a decision but in all probability it sounds best to leave the batteries alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 It's a pity life gets more complicated as you get older! On the front of my charger there is a cable connector, a switch set to 230V and a small vent. Dimensions are approx. 41/4 in x 2 in x 91/4 in and the casing is black finish with longitudinal ribbing. On the label in small print it states: Red - boost charging, Green - flow charging. You obviously have much experience of these units and you will probably recognise it from my description. Presumably with my virtually constant charging regime, i.e. EHU at home and on most sites, I only get flow charging. Was the construction of the Squadron AGM batteries different in some way to the current AGM batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Colin, yes AGM will have different thickness plates and construction to suit the application, just as Wet Lead Acid batteries do. Same with Gel's. I don't know anything about the Squadron batteries but suspect the construction is likely to be towards ultra Deep Cycling batteries if the spec is to be believed. Most of the 'budget' AGM's being targeted towards motorhomes have light weight thin plates and give little more than Starter battery life. Trojan and Victron have some ultra deep cylce construction batteries that are highly rated, but the majority are not, even the likes of the Varta and Banner AGM's have shown to have short lives in motorhomes. At £250 per battery the Victron's are expensive. Mikebs, the CTEK recond phase, as per all de-sulphation phases are designed to remove soft Sulphation that has built up over days. It won't work on hard Sulphation that has been in place weeks/months. So in most cases they do more harm than good. Charging a battery at 16v for 8 hours can't be any good, which is why almost all the best battery manufacturers say never to use such a feature. You will note these features are 'promoted' by the charger manufacturers, not the battery manufacturers, If you use it on an AGM, don't leave the battery unsupervised, as the risk risk of thermal runaway and explosion is elevated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Why does life get more complicated as we get older? I have had another look at my charger and it has dimensions approx. as follows: 41/4" x 2" x 91/4" The outer casing is longitudinally ribbed and finish is black. At the front is a connector, a switch indicating 230V and a vent. On the label in small print it states: Red - boost charging, Green - float charging. Presumably, with my regime of charging, mainly constant use of EHU at home and on site, means that both my batteries are more or less constantly receiving float charging of 13.7V. As they have lasted so long is this because the Squadron batteries were particularly good in some respect? Did there construction differ in some way from the current AGM batteries. Based on logic and my particular usage it would seem to me that my choice would be to stay with AGM although this would not necessarily apply to others. Sorry about the near repeat. It didn't seem to get posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Colin, your batteries have probably lasted so long because they have not been used, as stated earlier : "But in any case you write, "Most of the time I use an EHU when away from home" which would result batteries hardly ever being cycled at all. Virtually unused in real terms, which might explain the long life time". Based on your usage you would probably get 10 years out a Starter battery used in place of the Leisure battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I can now give a final update regarding my leisure batteries and charging regime. Having finally managed to release the clamping screws I was able to withdraw one battery to view the information on the side. As stated before the leisure batteries are Squadron ENERGY agmlonglife. On the side is written: 'Cyclic - 10 year life - Totally sealed - 300 cycles @ 70% D.O.D.' The batteries are 85Ah. Dimensions 260mm x 210mm x 168mm. As far as I can see the battery compartment is not vented and there is a sticker warning against smoking or naked flames. With the leisure batteries having a floating charge voltage on the control panel of 13.7V with EHU I measured 13.64V at the battery terminals. I disconnected the EHU and after 2 days recorded 12.92V and 12.85V for the left and right leisure batteries respectively. On starting the engine and with the engine idling the voltages at the batteries were 14.30V - 14.38V soon dropping to 12.94V. The following day the voltages on the CONTROL PANEL were 12.7V for the starter battery and 12.9V for the leisure batteries. Plugging in the EHU the leisure battery voltages increased to 14.4V while the starter battery voltage stayed at 12.7V. After about 5 minutes the voltage for the starter battery also increased to 14.4V and the voltages remained at this level for at least 30 minutes after which I ceased monitoring. When Autocruise introduced this Energy Management System they got an award for innovation but technical details seem to be hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiphop Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Hi Colin - I have an Autocruise Starspirit 2007 (pre Swift) with two Squadron Energy leisure batteries which are still going well. I leave the motorhome hooked up at home so the batteries are on permanent charge which I believe assists long life. However I realise the batteries may be on borrowed time so decided to prepare for replacement. But I cannot get the battery clamps off. The nuts are locked solid with rust underneath the battery box and efforts to turn the plastic knobs inside the box have proved fruitless. Endless amounts of WD40 haven't helped. Friends have suggested grinding the nuts off but I see they are welded to a square plate. How did you do it? Many thanks Royce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Royce. Assuming that you are referring to the plastic knob arrowed in green on the photo attached below, if it is impossible to unscrew the knob the options seem to be either to sever the bolt that the knob is attached to (cutting crosswise at the bottom of the knob) or (as has been suggested to you) to get under the motorhome and grind off the nuts through which the threaded ‘knob bolts’ go, or to drill up through the nut from underneath until the section of bolt within in the nut has been removed - whichever method is easiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Hiphop - 2021-04-19 12:04 PM Endless amounts of WD40 haven't helped. Friends have suggested grinding the nuts off but I see they are welded to a square plate. How did you do it? Many thanks Royce. The standard way to free rust welded bolts /nuts is to heat with a blow torch, rapidly cool, repeat, and if necessary repeat again. The viability of doing this of course depends on access and the surrounding materials. So if it were me, and I had access to the nuts underneath and the surrounding materials were not going to melt/combust, I would heat the nuts rapidly to red hot, cool rapidly with water, repeat and then if fully cool try to loosen via the plastic knob by working it backwards and forwards. It needs to be fully cool before you attempt to free it as the plastic knob may start to melt so needs time to harden up again properly. Placing a wet cloth over the knob might help to keep it cool during the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiphop Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Thank you Derek for your prompt reply which is very helpful. The picture you show is exactly my situation. I can't feel a thread under the plastic knob it is smooth to touch which suggests that the inside of the plastic knob may be in a sheath if that makes sense. I have tried to lever the plastic knob off hoping to reveal a bolt head that I may be able to grip with a socket wrench.but it won't budge upwards. I have managed to twist the plastic knob with water pump pliers but it feels like I have just jumped it over the hexagon of a bolt head. So that leaves me with the underneath of the battery box. I would be happy to try either of your methods to severe the nut but as I am on the prototype Autocruise low profile there is no room to get under the vehicle. Putting the rear wheels up on the levelling ramps gives me space but I don't feel safe to go under. I suspect I will have to find a garage with proper hydraulic lifts to do the job. Colin Weston managed to free his same bolts looking at the original thread (no pun intended) in June 2019. I have tried to private message him on this forum but it just sits in my outbox. Does it have to be vetted before sending? As you can see I am a Newbie but very impressed so far. Many thanks Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Your PM message to Colin Weston will stay in your Inbox until Colin logs in, notices your message and opens it. (Colin’s moost recent forum login was on 2 April 2021, so he may be forum incommunicado for a while.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Royce Having re-read your last posting, as your Starspirit’s battery-box has two batteries in it I’m guessing that there is very restricted access to the plastic knobs. If (as you suspect) there’s a bolt-head inside the plastic knob, you might be able to make enough drill-holes in the top surface of the knob to expose the bolt-head. if you can get a socket spanner on to the (hypothetical) bolt-head you could apply some serious torque to the bolt that might get it to rotate in the nut under the battery-box. I think the chances are that you’ll have to sacrifice the present hold-down arrangement with either the plastic knobs or the the nuts becoming damaged beyond repair, but that’s preferable to having to try to deal with this problem if you need to change a battery in an emergency. If you HAD to change a battery (and suitable replacements must be very rare nowadays) could the shiny metal ‘bracket’ in the photo I provided be bent away from the battery sufficiently to get the old battery out? (I’vve temporarily added Colin Waston’s name to title of this thread to attract Colin’s attention. I’ll remove it later...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiphop Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Thanks Derek - most helpful again. I was beginning to think I might have to sacrifice those black plastic knobs but hadn't thought of drilling the tops out to reveal the top of the bolt. Looks don't matter when the job is done as it is all under a floor hatch so saving the plastic knobs is not essential.. The bracket is a serious bit of heavy metal so bending is not an option. Before I start hacking away (or letting someone else hack away) I wanted to hear how Colin Weston got his brackets off. He has not replied to my PM either so he might be inactive. I do have time on my side as the existing batteries are working well albeit 16 years old! Referring to the rarity of suitable batteries the last edition of the C&CC magazine came up with answer for me! The Yuasa YBX Active L26 AGM being only 260mm long fits exactly in that box. As Colin pointed out the charger in my model Autocruise is a 3 stage charger (whatever that is) specifically designed for AGM and Gel batteries. I need to stick with AGM as the batteries lay on their side. Thanks for your advice and efforts to find Colin Weston Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 I had something similar happen on the spare wheel bracket, this had a plastic knob which just slipped as the nut was rusted. In the end I levered off the plastic which exposed the hexagon (in this case nut) and from there just undid it with socket wrench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Could you get a small 4 inch angle grinder in there or even a Dremel and cut the plastic off which should reveal a metal bolt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Hiphop - 2021-04-20 3:27 PM ...Referring to the rarity of suitable batteries the last edition of the C&CC magazine came up with answer for me! The Yuasa YBX Active L26 AGM being only 260mm long fits exactly in that box. Royce As you’ll see from earlier postings in this thread, a YUASA REC80 AGM battery was advised for replacing ‘lie-flat’ Squadron Energy AGM originals. The REC 80 battery and the Yuasa Active L26 are shown in these Tayna adverts. https://www.tayna.co.uk/mobility-batteries/yuasa/rec80i/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_4PS9NqO8AIVl-vtCh3RZg2jEAQYAiABEgKP9vD_BwE https://www.tayna.co.uk/leisure-batteries/yuasa/l26-agm/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr5SUktuO8AIVDLDtCh2Eag7REAQYAiABEgKkwfD_BwE You’ll note that the terminals differ and the REC 80’s height is smaller. Those factors might or might not matter in your case, but it’s perhaps worth mentioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiphop Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Hi Derek - thanks for that. I had noticed the Yuasa REC80 was recommended in the thread but it looks like that battery has screw in terminals. I assumed I needed posts so was pleased to find the Yuasa L26 albeit quite expensive. On the clamp removal issue I have contacted a local tow bar fitter who sorted my Thule bike rack electrics recently and he will bring the nuts off for me. Most recommended solutions are outwith my skill/tool set and working underneath the van at home doesn't feel safe. Shall we keep this thread open? Colin Weston may appear meantime and I would like to know how he freed the clamps. In any case I can post the result when I get my clamps freed together with photos which may help others with a similar problem. Many thanks Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 If your existing batteries have 'conventional' terminals and the Yuasa L26 batteries (I assume you plan to fit a pair) will go into the battery-box, then the L26 will be the better choice. No problem leaving the this thread live indefinitely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin weston Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 Been away! Just posted a response to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 Colin I added your name to this thread’s title in the hope that this would catch your attention. As you’ve now got in touch with Royce, I’ve removed your name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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