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Importing Before Brexit (first-time motorhomer)


paid2travel

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Some helpful advice & tips required please guys.....

 

I'm potentially looking at importing a used LHD (07/2012) Hymer Carado A366 (Fiat Ducato cab) from an independent dealer in Germany, back to the UK.

 

Being doing quite a bit of research and have trundled through a lot of threads touching on many of the aspects on this subject.

 

I've now got a general idea of the process now but stuck on a couple of things:-

 

1) Type Approval - "M1 Special Purpose" UK authorities aren't specific about where I can obtain a Certificate of Conformity other than "from the manufacturer" (not dealer). So do I have to try and find a dept on a Hymer or Fiat website (or both) ?

 

2) Mutual Recognition Certificate (LHD Vehicles) - a) Headlamps, As stickers/deflectors etc aren't accepted on the VCA form, would it be easier to get one set of new lamps for the UK, then when I go abroad, replace with the original lamps ? b) Speedometer, which options would you suggest as a good long term replacement to capture MPH & KPH ?

 

3) Regarding getting the MH back to the UK, there has been a lot of hot debate about driving it back or shipping it back. I did see suggestions that Edge Hill Motorhomes & Bundesvan operate a service but both appear to have closed, any ideas of others who can currently help ?

 

4) What docs should I ensure that are attached with the potential sale, e.g; foreign Registration Cert, dealer Invoice (showing their VAT No) ? HU Certification?

 

5) Do any of the docs mentioned have to be originals ? (bearing in mind the MH is 7yrs old)

 

Sorry if some of this has been already covered in the past but I'm starting to get a little dizzy now !!

 

Thanks

Martin *-)

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1) Type Approval - "M1 Special Purpose" UK authorities aren't specific about where I can obtain a Certificate of Conformity other than "from the manufacturer" (not dealer). So do I have to try and find a dept on a Hymer or Fiat website (or both) ?

 

 

 

"From the manufacturer" does not exclude getting the original one from the dealer, from what I've read online I would expect a continental dealer to have the CofC.

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Guest pelmetman
colin - 2019-08-31 10:08 PM

 

1) Type Approval - "M1 Special Purpose" UK authorities aren't specific about where I can obtain a Certificate of Conformity other than "from the manufacturer" (not dealer). So do I have to try and find a dept on a Hymer or Fiat website (or both) ?

 

 

 

"From the manufacturer" does not exclude getting the original one from the dealer, from what I've read online I would expect a continental dealer to have the CofC.

 

When I exported my 1996 £901 bargain banger Toyota "earlier this year" to Spain ;-) ........

 

They looked under the bonnet for a plate that said it was compliant ...........

 

But I guess that's last century technology .........

 

Just to add it wasn't anymore onerous than when I imported a Honda Accord from Gib to the UK in the late 70's :-| ...........

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paid2travel - 2019-08-31 9:07 PM

 

Some helpful advice & tips required please guys.....

 

b) Speedometer, which options would you suggest as a good long term replacement to capture MPH & KPH ?

 

Thanks

Martin *-)

 

Martin,

 

The speedo markings MUST be visible under all lighting conditions so the only option is to replace the current dial with one bearing both kph and mph.

 

The best option here is to buy a new dial from Lockwood International in Leeds...

 

https://www.lockwoodinternational.co.uk/dials/mph/fiat/a-l/ducato.html

 

Keith.

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paid2travel - 2019-08-31 9:07 PM

 

Some helpful advice & tips required please guys.....

 

I'm potentially looking at importing a used LHD (07/2012) Hymer Carado A366 (Fiat Ducato cab) from an independent dealer in Germany, back to the UK.

 

2) Mutual Recognition Certificate (LHD Vehicles) - a) Headlamps, As stickers/deflectors etc aren't accepted on the VCA form, would it be easier to get one set of new lamps for the UK, then when I go abroad, replace with the original lamps ?

I'm certain you will need to buy and fit a set of RHD light units to comply with the MOT. The LHD lights become obsolete. I had sticker deflectors (for use in Europe) on my RHD light units and the MOT station i used passed it each time with those still on though i suspect some station could be picky and ask for them to be removed.

 

When my son was in the forces and posted to Germany, he took his car but after 3 month even though they are BFPO they're deemed 'resident' and cars have to go through the TUV (way more strict than our MOT). He had to have LHD lights fitted (£600 the pair) and also the cars are re-plated....not as German but similar style to Irish.

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paid2travel - 2019-08-31 9:07 PM

 

Some helpful advice & tips required please guys.....

 

I'm potentially looking at importing a used LHD (07/2012) Hymer Carado A366 (Fiat Ducato cab) from an independent dealer in Germany, back to the UK.

 

Being doing quite a bit of research and have trundled through a lot of threads touching on many of the aspects on this subject.

 

I've now got a general idea of the process now but stuck on a couple of things:-

 

1) Type Approval - "M1 Special Purpose" UK authorities aren't specific about where I can obtain a Certificate of Conformity other than "from the manufacturer" (not dealer). So do I have to try and find a dept on a Hymer or Fiat website (or both) ?

 

2) Mutual Recognition Certificate (LHD Vehicles) - a) Headlamps, As stickers/deflectors etc aren't accepted on the VCA form, would it be easier to get one set of new lamps for the UK, then when I go abroad, replace with the original lamps ? b) Speedometer, which options would you suggest as a good long term replacement to capture MPH & KPH ?

 

3) Regarding getting the MH back to the UK, there has been a lot of hot debate about driving it back or shipping it back. I did see suggestions that Edge Hill Motorhomes & Bundesvan operate a service but both appear to have closed, any ideas of others who can currently help ?

 

4) What docs should I ensure that are attached with the potential sale, e.g; foreign Registration Cert, dealer Invoice (showing their VAT No) ? HU Certification?

 

5) Do any of the docs mentioned have to be originals ? (bearing in mind the MH is 7yrs old)

 

Sorry if some of this has been already covered in the past but I'm starting to get a little dizzy now !!

 

Thanks

Martin *-)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I bought my hymer B694 from dusseldorf and it was second hand but the dealer got the COC and gave it to me, then he got import plates fitted (cost 200euros , last for 2 weeks in the UK third party insurance but as soon as I landed I got in touch with Comfort who insured it fully comp right from the docks,) the back fog and reversing lights I changed over to oppisite sides, the front lights on my van 5" dip, managed to loosen the screws on the back so when in the UK they dipped to the left, in EU I twist them to dip to the right, no problem, the speedo, all I done on advice from the mot station was to print out small, similar size to numbers on speedo and stuck them on the front of the glass in the correct poistion so in the driving position they are in the correct position, my testing station said that only needs 30, 50, 70, in numbers and just a dash for the rest. in the last 10 years never had any problem with Mot

went to DVLA office with the COC to get it registered for the UK it only cost £50 which included the new reg number

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As the Carado motorhome Martin is considering importing is 2012-vintage, the VCA procedure defined in the following document will apply

 

https://tinyurl.com/y2pcttu2

 

The headlamps of a LHD 2012 Ducato-based Carado A366 (example on following advert)

 

https://www.motorhomedepot.com/vehicle/hymer-carado-a366

 

cannot be adjusted to provide the required UK-specification ‘left-dipping’ beam pattern, so will need replacement.

 

I’m not sure how easy it is to swap a Ducato X250’s headlamps, but if the original ‘right-dipping’ headlamp units are retained, there will be the potential to put them back on for travelling outside the UK. A vehicle with right-dipping headlamp units can pass the UK’s MOT test if the units are fitted with appropriate ‘masks’ or ‘beam benders’, but (as the VCA application document makes clear) masks/benders are not acceptable at the UK-registration stage.

 

For UK-registration the Carado’s speedometer will need to have a dial carrying ‘proper’ mph and km/h scales. As has been said above, Lockwood can provide dial conversion fascias for Ducato that are quite easy to fit

 

https://www.lockwoodinternational.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/instructions/Fiat/C120_C124_Etc_Fiat_Ducato.pdf

 

but it’s vital to ensure that the replacement dial matches the original or some warning symbols may not display.

 

The advert I provided a link to above SUGGESTS that a 2012 Carado A366’s left and right rear light units probably have the same functionality. If that’s so, no changes would need to be made to meet the VCA fog-lamp requirement if both units carry a working fog-lamp, but this is something Martin would need to confirm.

 

DVLA local offices are long gone -UK-registration now needs to be done via the DVLA at Swansea at arm's length. It’s also more difficult nowadays to obtain insurance from a UK provider prior to an imported vehicle being UK-registered.

 

A couple of observations...

 

A 2012 Carado A366 is not enormous, but it’s not small either (dimensions here)

 

https://www.nettikaravaani.com/en/carado/a366/1508932

 

It’s a 6-seat/6-berth design and normally marketed with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 3500kg. At that GVW, if the 6-person carrying capability is fully exploited, usable payload will rapidly be eroded.

 

There’s also a massive over-cab sleeping accommodation ‘bulge’ and this feature often translates into sensitivity to cross winds, particularly on motorways. If I were considering buying an A366, I’d be looking at fitting air-bellows (’semi-air’) to the rear suspension to counter that tendency.

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teccer1234 - 2019-08-31 11:58 PM

 

... the speedo, all I done on advice from the mot station was to print out small, similar size to numbers on speedo and stuck them on the front of the glass in the correct poistion so in the driving position they are in the correct position, my testing station said that only needs 30, 50, 70, in numbers and just a dash for the rest. in the last 10 years never had any problem with Mot

 

Teccer1234,

 

Ten years ago you may well have 'got away' with sticking numbers on the glass as you state but now the rules have been tightened considerably and it is no longer deemed acceptable.

 

The rules clearly state that the markings must be visible under all lighting conditions and with a modern 'back-lit' speedo if numbers are stuck onto the glass they are not deemed visible at night.

 

A replacement dial is the only certain way to get registered.

 

Keith.

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Bulletguy - 2019-08-31 11:17 PM

 

I had sticker deflectors (for use in Europe) on my RHD light units and the MOT station i used passed it each time with those still on though i suspect some station could be picky and ask for them to be removed.

 

 

 

When I presented my van for MOT this year I had forgotten to take off the masks, I mentioned it to MOT tester, he said "Shouldn't be a problem" and sure enough he was correct the beams where bright enough and would not dazzle oncoming traffic.

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There is no direct relationship between the regulations relating to the UK-registration of an imported motorhome and the regulations relating to the UK’s MOT test.

 

Where the vehicle’s headlamps are concerned, the UK-registration requirements are clearly stated on Page 2 of the VCA document accessed via the 1st link of my last posting.

 

The current MOT-test regulations relating to headlamps can be read here:

 

https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/class3457/Section-4-Lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment.html#section_4.1

 

A flat top or other alternative headlamp dipped beam pattern is acceptable as long as all of the beam upper edge, including any ‘peak’ is contained within the appropriate tolerance band.

 

It's acceptable for masks or converter kits to be fitted to right hand dip headlamps to temporarily alter the lamp for use in the UK by removing the beam ‘kick-up’ to the right.

 

So, although for UK-registration of an imported motorhometo must have headlamps producing a dipped-beam pattern that meets ‘UK specification’ and masks/deflectors/beam-benders are not acceptable for obtaining a UK-specification pattern, if a motorhome with headlamps that produce a ‘Continental European’ right-dippingbeam pattern is submitted for an MOT-test, it is acceptable for that pattern to be ’temporarily’ modified by masks/deflectors/beam-benders.

 

If a UK-registered motorhome has headlamps that produce a UK-specification left-dipping pattern and that pattern has been modified for driving in ‘right-hand traffic’ (eg. driving in Continental Europe) by using masks/deflectors/beam-benders, provided that the resultant beam pattern still meets the relevant criteria defined in Section 4.1 of the MOT-test regulations, the motorhome should pass the MOT-test with the masks/deflectors/beam-benders remaining in situ.

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Thanks Guys !

 

I'll pursue the availability of the C of C with the German dealer when I see them next week.

 

DEREK thanks ! - Ref headlamps, in summary then does that mean that I could present the MH for an MOT in order to have either the headlamps adjusted to within the allowed MOT parameters or have masks/converter kit fitted to temporarily remedy the right beam kick-up ? (not sure how long temporarily means in their opinion too).

 

Then ask the garage/MOT station to identify the work done on their invoice by stating something like "the beams have been changed from right dipping to left dipping" and also making sure no mention of masks/converter kits are on the invoice (if used) ?

 

Reading paragraph five on page 4 of the VCA Mutual Recognition, it indicates that detailed description is required on the garage invoice of any changes carried out with regard to headlamps etc, so am I taking a risk of giving the VCA an excuse to reject my application here?

 

Thanks

Martin

 

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paid2travel - 2019-09-01 7:22 PM

 

Thanks Guys !

 

I'll pursue the availability of the C of C with the German dealer when I see them next week.

 

DEREK thanks ! - Ref headlamps, in summary then does that mean that I could present the MH for an MOT in order to have either the headlamps adjusted to within the allowed MOT parameters or have masks/converter kit fitted to temporarily remedy the right beam kick-up ? (not sure how long temporarily means in their opinion too).

 

Then ask the garage/MOT station to identify the work done on their invoice by stating something like "the beams have been changed from right dipping to left dipping" and also making sure no mention of masks/converter kits are on the invoice (if used) ?

 

Reading paragraph five on page 4 of the VCA Mutual Recognition, it indicates that detailed description is required on the garage invoice of any changes carried out with regard to headlamps etc, so am I taking a risk of giving the VCA an excuse to reject my application here?

 

Thanks

Martin

 

Martin,

 

You are NOT allowed to use deflectors or beam benders for the purpose of the Registration inspection.

 

What Derek was stating is that if you present an already registered vehicle for an MOT with LHD headlamps and beam deflectors the tester cannot fail it as long as the lights do not cause dazzle to oncoming motorists.

 

Two very different scenarios unfortunately.

 

Keith.

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I agree with Keith’s post. You need to prove that the headlights have been altered correctly and, although your suggestion may work, the DVLA do carry out random inspections on registration, so would then refuse the registration.

 

Other than that, you seem to have it sussed.

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I have imported (personal import) a number of motorhomes over the years, the most recent being a Challenger Vany panel van conversion in December last year. Sorry I have not been on the forums for a long time so have only just seen your post. i'd be happy for you to PM me and I can talk you through the whole process including viewing, buying, buying Euros, insurance, CoC, Mutual Recognition, registration with DVLA etc. The first thing you probably need to do (if you have not already) is contact DVLA and ask for an import pack, its useful as it lays out the different stages of import and the order in which they need to be done. I don't really want to get into a discussion on forum, but would be happy to help.
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crocs - 2019-09-01 8:23 PM

 

I agree with Keith’s post. You need to prove that the headlights have been altered correctly and, although your suggestion may work, the DVLA do carry out random inspections on registration, so would then refuse the registration.

 

Other than that, you seem to have it sussed.

The Carado models are coachbuilts, so retain the original Fiat cab and, consequently, headlamps.

 

As above, your only option in this case is to swap the existing, right dipping (and non-adjustable), headlamps for left dipping units. Be careful to obtain the exact equivalent left dipping units to those on the van, as there are variations depending on original spec, and the CAN bus system is apt to get its knickers in a twist if headlamps of a different spec are swapped in!

 

This is especially important if the existing lamps have LED DRLs, as there is an electronic module on the rear of each lamp that must be swapped to the new lamps before fitting - and back again if you subsequently wish to use the right dipping units while abroad.

 

Apart from that module, swapping headlamps is not difficult as the electrical connections are all contained in a single multi plug, 'though it can take a minute or two to work out how to release the multi-plug from its latch! Handbook alert! :-)

 

There are patterned headlamps available as an alternative to the Fiat branded versions. Mine are from Taiwan, by DEPO, and seem of equivalent quality to the originals.

 

It may pay, in the interests of speed and simplicity, to take the left dipping headlamps units and the Lockwood speedometer card (which must exactly match that already in place apart from the MPH/KPH scales, as I think has already been mentioned), to a (preferably) Fiat Professional garage and get them to do the swaps and write you a detailed invoice on their headed paper stating that they have installed a MPH/KPH speedometer card and fitted left dipping UK spec headlamps to bring the vehicle to full UK registration compliance.

 

I would expect VCA to require a VOSA inspection for mutual recognition, and understand that a dealer's invoice for such work "smooths" the process compared to DIY fitting.

 

As a rider, if you are going to pursue this, I would suggest you complete the purchase and registration processes as quickly as possible, as documents such as the CoC and the Mutual Recognition Certificate are the product of EU procedures, and while the right to make such imports pre-dates our membership of the EU, the present entitlement exists, I believe (but do check this), under EU single market regulations. If we leave the EU without a deal, it seems possible that DVLA, VOSA and VCA may require instruction from DfT on what they can, and cannot, deal with, and how. It would be at the very least frustrating to find that registration of your import gets snared in a procedural vacuum following Brexit, while the various agencies ascertain what the new rules are! Good luck.

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  • 1 month later...

I am a new member and and a new private importer so the many threads on importing have been especially helpful to me. I have a similar set of questions. Should I therefore have started a new thread, or is tacking on my question here the best way to go?

 

In any event:

I am importing a new La Strada EB, on the new 2019/20 Fiat Ducato model. It is due in May at the dealers in. Germany. I think I'm clear on the dial question. I have been in touch with Lockwood and their existing dials look, on the basis of photos I have provided (taken from the La Strada website, of a 2020 model Avanti EB dial) to be identical to the current dial model. This is consistent with the information I have recieved re the differences between the 2019/20 model Ducato and the 2011-19 models which is that the only significant changes are a new AdBlue engine and a new auto nine-speed box. As far as I know the dash, rear and front light clusters are the same.

 

Assuming this is correct can anyone tell me

 

A) if it will be necessary to get new rear light clusters? My belief is that German rear light clusters confirm to UK standards, but I could not tell you why I think that!

 

B)Similarly does anyone know if the current Ducato front light clusters on a German van conversion will meet the UK regulations because they fall into the following category (from the DVLA website)

- Original factory fitted headlights that are, through a standard feature of the vehicle, adjustable so that the beam can be changed from right dipping to left dipping

 

or

 

__- Original factory fitted flat-beam headlights (we can not accept a right dipping beam that is adjusted to flat-beam unless that is a standard feature of the vehicle, e.g. done via operation of a lever)

 

C) Lastly is it worth using a professional importer to do all the work (converting the speedo, doing whatever work is necessary on the lights and handling the paperwork) or does the cost (currently unknown) outweigh the benefits because the paperwork - is relatively well documented (in the DVLA import pack) and a FIAT Professional garage should be able to do the mechanical work (although I have not been over-impressed so far in my dealings with them). I should also mention that this vehicle is on the 4000kg Maxi chassis, but I was intending to get it down-plated by the dealer in Germany to 3.5 so my wife can drive it (only a B1 license). Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

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Viz-a-viz the rear light clusters.

 

The issue here is the position of the rear fog lamp(s). If only one is fitted by the manufacturer, it will be on the vehicle off-side, which is different for a LHD and RHD vehicle.

 

I'm pretty sure I checked an X/290 Ducato for someone asking the same question, and I believe the rear clusters are identical, but mirrored, meaning that a fog lamp is fitted, and illuminated, in both clusters, making it legal in both RHD and LHD locations.

 

I'm also pretty sure that there is a reversing light on both sides, but the positioning of this is irrelevant for the import process.

 

The headlights will be 'handed' and non-adjustable, and will need replacing for the import process (albeit it would then pass subsequent MOT tests with the original headlamps masked!). Be aware that the units with LED daytime running lights incorporated are rather more expensive than those with conventional running lights, and are not easily exchangeable.

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Regarding headlights I've actually had an email from VCA today on this subject as I'm in the process of importing a vehicle myself. This is what they said:

 

That the headlamps are UK specification (headlight beam dips to the left):

 

Note: Stickers, beam benders/deflectors are not acceptable.

We can accept any one of the following options:

 

a) UK specification, left dipping, headlights that are used in replacement of the original factory fitted headlights.

 

b) Original factory fitted UK specification headlights (dipping left as standard)

 

c) Original factory fitted headlights that have been, through a standard feature of the vehicle, adjusted so that the beam has been changed from right dipping to left dipping.

 

d) Original factory fitted flat-beam headlights (we cannot accept a right dipping beam that is adjusted to flat beam unless that is a standard feature of the vehicle, e.g. done via operation of a lever)

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Robinhood - 2019-11-04 7:17 PMViz-a-viz the rear light clusters.The issue here is the position of the rear fog lamp(s). If only one is fitted by the manufacturer, it will be on the vehicle off-side, which is different for a LHD and RHD vehicle.I'm pretty sure I checked an X/290 Ducato for someone asking the same question, and I believe the rear clusters are identical, but mirrored, meaning that a fog lamp is fitted, and illuminated, in both clusters, making it legal in both RHD and LHD locations.I'm also pretty sure that there is a reversing light on both sides, but the positioning of this is irrelevant for the import process. The headlights will be 'handed' and non-adjustable, and will need replacing for the import process (albeit it would then pass subsequent MOT tests with the original headlamps masked!). Be aware that the units with LED daytime running lights incorporated are rather more expensive than those with conventional running lights, and are not easily exchangeable.

Most helpful, thanks. As far as the rear light cluster is concerned you confirm what I more or less thought was the case. I am checking with the dealer for the specification of the rear light cluster.

As far as the front light assembly is concerned, Fiat Professional in Reading have suggested that it depends what lights the van comes in with, which I am also trying to establish with the convertor. Their "belief" was that if it came with Zenon flat beams it might not need replacing. I am not sure if that's true or not but would seem to fall within the definition of the one (d) of the solutions VCA accept, posted earlier. 
d) Original factory fitted flat-beam headlights (we cannot accept a right dipping beam that is adjusted to flat beam unless that is a standard feature of the vehicle, e.g. done via operation of a lever)

If it is necessary to replace the units I appear, by luck, not judgement, to have avoided specifying LED daytime running lights which is an additional expense spared.

Many thanks for your input.
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The following link is to the Application for Commission Notice / Mutual Recognition - Motorhomes form that relates to UK registration of an imported motorhome

 

https://tinyurl.com/y2pcttu2

 

2019/2020 Ducato panel-vans are based on the ‘X290’ design that was introduced in 2014 and the latest revisions are summarised here

 

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/news/2019/fiat-ducato-my20/

 

Where lighting is concerned, the only difference for 2019/2020 is that the colour of the headlamp ‘bezel’ has been standardised as black. Daytime running lights continue to be incorporated in the headlamps and provided by a traditional replaceable bulb or by an integrated LED ‘strip'.

 

Headlamp main and dipped beam are still provided by replaceable 55W H7 halogen bulbs and alternative headlamps using LED or Xenon technology for main/dip beam are not an option, As Robinhood has advised, the right-dipping headlamp units Fiat-factory-fitted to a left-hand-drive 2019/2020 Ducato panel-van would need replacing with left-dipping equivalent units to comply with UK registration requirements.

 

Rear lamps are unchanged for 2019/2020 and (as Robinhood has also said) are ‘mirrored’, with the same set of bulbs used for left and right rear lights. (Drawing attached below) As each rear lamp of a 2019/2020 Avanti EB will carry a foglamp (and a reversing lamp) this meets the 3a requirement specified on the VCA application form.

 

The Owner Handbook for the latest Ducato is available on-line via Fiat’s ‘elum’ website

 

https://aftersales.fiat.com/elum/Login.aspx

 

and this includes advice/details of the 9Speed automatic transmission.

 

As Brian Kirby advised above, replacing the headlamps of a 2014-onwards Ducato van is quite straightforward - as is fitting a Lockwood dial - and a Fiat Professional agent should have little difficulty doing this. Besides which, the replacement headlamps will need to be adjusted after they have been fitted and that’s a ‘garage’ task.

 

(Are there still firms in the UK who will middle-man importation of motorhomes?)

307468361_Ducatorearlights.png.3fd2a8178e2dd2364b8be370f43ede9e.png

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