Lorry Load

[Violet1956]

When caught the illegal entrants claim asylum and as some are trafficked there are special procedures for dealing with victims of trafficking. The moral of this story is that we have to tackle the criminal networks that are involved in this trade because once they land it is most problematic and expensive when it comes to removal.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

 

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

 

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

It is reported that they use forged Chinese passports. Why? And why aren't those forged passports (whatever their origins) detected as they cross borders?

Unless a person has a criminal history or previous refusal of entry i can see no other reason to need a forged passport and visa. Applying for genuine ones is fairly straightforward.

https://vietcetera.com/en/a-guide-for-applying-and-obtaining-a-vietnamese-passport/

 

https://www.vfsglobal.co.uk/vn/en/vacs

 

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish.

Isn't this often the case in organised crime though? Nab those at the very bottom of the chain, make an example of them, the tabloids are happy......whilst those at the top simply continue 'business'.

[Hans]

The cooling was off. But lack of oxygen.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 1:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2019-10-29 8:25 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

It's not entirely their own fault :-| ...........

 

I think our own home grown loony liberals should take a lot of the blame for encouraging them >:-( ........

Doesn't compute, though, does it? The UK (including you!) loves to brag of its 5th/6th largest economy in the world. It is a wealthy country overall (even if that wealth is among the most unevenly distributed in the world). To an impoverished Vietnamese, who will know little of the UK except those misleading claims, it will appear as Eldorado.

 

The village from which a number of the dead are suspected as originating apparently has a number of residents who have been to UK, earned a lot of money, and returned to build what were described flashy houses and buy new cars. They become the evidence that a) the UK can be entered, b) good money can be earned, and c) that one can then just cash in one's chips and return to Vietnam loaded.

 

That is the lure. Given that evidence, who is not going to want to have a go themselves?

 

So, an industry has developed to meet the demand for "well paid" jobs in UK, no doubt with nods and winks about how safe and easy this is, even if legally a little dodgy. They have little to no idea what they are getting into. They live 6,000 miles away in a Vietnamese speaking, backward, rural community, how on earth can they know?

 

Approximately 10% of all detected illegal immigrants in UK are from Vietnam, so it is hardly an unknown source of illegal migration. The routes and methods used are apparently known. So we know that people want to enter the UK by whatever means to benefit from its wealth, we know more or less how they do so, and we know that they do so.

 

When illegal migrants are prosecuted, they are legally defended, and their cases are heard. That seems to me fair and reasonable. They have the opportunity to argue why they should not be deported. That is our legal system working as it is supposed to do. I see no reason why that should be changed.

 

Anyone presenting at a UK border who cannot satisfy immigration requirements may be turned back at that point. That is why the smugglers try to get their clients in "under the radar".

 

If we want to diminish the number of detainees whose cases go before the courts, we might help ourselves somewhat by being more stringent over dealing with the under-cover routes, and by returning those who are picked up at the border.

 

The question is why we do not do this. We are completely free to do so, including with EU citizens, if we so choose, so someone doesn't want us to do that, do they? No "loony liberal judges" (which completely ignores the reality of UK legal procedures) would then be involved, and nor would the costs of detaining and prosecuting those turned back. So again, why does the UK government not adopt this course, when it could? Difficult, that, isn't it? :-D

 

Our loony liberal brigade lawyers aren't much different to the people smugglers, in the fact they are making huge profits off the backs of those who enter the UK illegally *-) ..........

 

Once the illegals are caught they should be shipped back home pronto with no ifs or buts, instead of becoming a Liberal Lawyers meal ticket :-| ..........

 

If we did...... then I suspect that would be a proper deterrent ;-) ...........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

But stopping them at the point of entry would be significantly quicker, simpler, and more cost effective. Why no do that?

[Hans]

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 6:18 PM

 

John52 - 2019-10-28 12:46 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 12:03 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-26 11:42 PM

Clean your own car.

 

Quite.

I take it that, unlike millions of others, you have a private space near your house to clean your car Brian ;-)

I don't see the relevance of my car cleaning arrangements (or your highly selective snip!) - unless you think being hard up excuses using businesses employing illegal immigrants for whatever purpose. If so, (to quote an ex work colleague) I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I guess thats a 'Yes' then - you do have a private space to clean your car :D

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route.

.

I wonder how you have drawn that conclusion?

They can only search a tiny percentage of containers - so all the traffickers have to do is set someone else up to take the small risk of being stopped. If they present it to a financially struggling intellectually challenged lorry driver as a victimless crime - helping people to a better life, there is always somebody to take it on.

The only solution I can see is to do what the rest of the EU does, and sort out the black economy so they can't hide under the radar when they get here. That's going to take more than asking people with nowhere else to wash their car not to use cheap car washes. Its requires the Government to do its job and enforce its laws.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

 

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

 

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

It isn't the migrants who are necessarily under-educated, it is precisely those members of their families who facilitate their attempts to emigrate west by financing them. Families of those whose relatives are believed to have died in the container, who had received texts saying they couldn't breathe and were dying, were interviewed in their homes in the Vietnamese village a number of the dead are thought to have come from.

 

They were naïve ingénues who had been convinced of the improbable possibility that if they raised a hugely inflated sum their child/relative would be transported to Europe/the UK where they would find work so well paid they would be able to send enough back home to boost the family income and pay back the debt. If that isn't evidence of a poor general education, what is?

 

So yes, those families carry some responsibility for the death of their relatives, and they will be all to aware of that.

 

But that responsibility pales to insignificance beside that of the money-lenders, fixers, traffickers and smugglers who, together with what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route.

 

It is reported that they use forged Chinese passports. Why? And why aren't those forged passports (whatever their origins) detected as they cross borders?

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish.

 

 

Aaaah so its not the poor souls that took the fateful journey that were uneducated but their parents ... Got it ... Rather a sweeping statement Brian if I may be so bold to say ... Obviously the deaths of these folk is shocking , that shocking I dont recall a lorry load of Vietnamese dying like that before ??? l have no idea how many Vietnamese make the journey to Blighty year in and year out Brian and Im sure even you dont so I dont know statistically the risk of death from the journey but its obviously worth the risk isnt it ??? I can say I know in my close family someone who spent two years on human trafficking working for the Police and now that family member is a PC dealing with human trafficking and chancers that arrive here in the UK and many of them are Vietnamese so I do have a little knowledge on how and why they come ... Many come as a sense of duty to their families , they are expected to earn the money the family feels they need so the family and not those who sell them the dream UK ticket are more responsible for their deaths IMO ... Others come here sold by their families to work in cannabis factories and prostitution which again is 100% a family issue ... Life is cheap in Vietnam and the lives of the young are sold without a second thought by many ... Regards

[John52]

Birdbrain - 2019-10-29 8:01 PM

work in cannabis factories and prostitution

 

Black economy again.

By criminalising cannabis and prostitution the Government has ensured both will be run by criminals - providing under-the-radar work for illegal immigrants :-S

[Bulletguy]

 

Two brothers wanted by police apparently gone on the run. The elder brother is the owner of the blue Scania truck suspected of being used to drop the container at Zeebrugge. He served two and half years ten years ago for smuggling cigarettes evading almost £1m tax duty.

 

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1029/1087278-essex/

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/brothers-sought-by-police-probing-essex-lorry-deaths

[Birdbrain]

John52 - 2019-10-29 8:05 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-29 8:01 PM

work in cannabis factories and prostitution

 

Black economy again.

By criminalising cannabis and prostitution the Government has ensured both will be run by criminals - providing under-the-radar work for illegal immigrants :-S

 

Actualy couldn't agree more ... Both should be legalised ... Governments have ensured both are run by criminals

[747]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

 

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

 

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

 

 

 

 

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

 

How are you privy to what the NCA is doing Brian?

 

Perhaps they and other agencies are involved. They are not likely to phone you with an update.

[Brian Kirby]

747 - 2019-10-30 8:22 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

How are you privy to what the NCA is doing Brian?

Perhaps they and other agencies are involved. They are not likely to phone you with an update.

Bit silly! It is quite common for local police forces to be given support form other, more specialist, branches of the police, and for this to be publicly stated. That information is unlikely to have ben subject to a "D" notice, or to have been subject to classification on grounds of national security, so I simply commented that I have yet to see such support mentioned. "Phone me with an update" is gratuitous sarcasm. What prompted that?

[747]

I think you are making it all up as you go along Brian.

 

Tweetie Pie is not the only one with a close Relative who is actively engaged in People Trafficking operations. Local Police might be involved in arrests at the end of an operation but otherwise not. Border Force are the ones doing the low level checks but 'the big boys' are a different kettle of fish. They represent a danger to the security of the UK because they don't only traffic Vietnamese Nail Bar employees but also have the means to traffic terrorists and weapons. Returning British ISIS terrorists are a real risk to the UK. It is a multi Agency operation at National level.

 

 

[Barryd999]

747 - 2019-10-30 2:51 PM

 

I think you are making it all up as you go along Brian.

 

Tweetie Pie is not the only one with a close Relative who is actively engaged in People Trafficking operations. Local Police might be involved in arrests at the end of an operation but otherwise not. Border Force are the ones doing the low level checks but 'the big boys' are a different kettle of fish. They represent a danger to the security of the UK because they don't only traffic Vietnamese Nail Bar employees but also have the means to traffic terrorists and weapons. Returning British ISIS terrorists are a real risk to the UK. It is a multi Agency operation at National level.

 

 

So I Was right then the other day on the big debate on "the other forum" that the people smugglers / traffickers and the organised crime that run them are the ones that need targeting?

[Violet1956]

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

[jumpstart]

Violet1956 - 2019-10-30 5:03 PM

 

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

 

But not good enough to stop them getting in. It’s an Eu wide problem.

[Bulletguy]

jumpstart - 2019-10-30 5:36 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-30 5:03 PM

 

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

 

But not good enough to stop them getting in. It’s an Eu wide problem.

Apart from Vietnam not being in the EU it's actually a UK problem in that successive governments have ignored EU rules on immigration because it's suited UK.

 

https://bruegel.org/2017/02/questionable-immigration-claims-in-the-brexit-white-paper/

[747]

Bulletguy - 2019-10-30 5:47 PM

 

jumpstart - 2019-10-30 5:36 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-30 5:03 PM

 

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

 

But not good enough to stop them getting in. It’s an Eu wide problem.

Apart from Vietnam not being in the EU it's actually a UK problem in that successive governments have ignored EU rules on immigration because it's suited UK.

 

https://bruegel.org/2017/02/questionable-immigration-claims-in-the-brexit-white-paper/

 

Once again, you completely miss the point. *-)

[Bulletguy]

747 - 2019-10-30 5:52 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2019-10-30 5:47 PM

 

jumpstart - 2019-10-30 5:36 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-30 5:03 PM

 

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

 

But not good enough to stop them getting in. It’s an Eu wide problem.

Apart from Vietnam not being in the EU it's actually a UK problem in that successive governments have ignored EU rules on immigration because it's suited UK.

 

https://bruegel.org/2017/02/questionable-immigration-claims-in-the-brexit-white-paper/

 

Once again, you completely miss the point. *-)

And your point is.........???

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2019-10-30 6:07 PM

 

747 - 2019-10-30 5:52 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2019-10-30 5:47 PM

 

jumpstart - 2019-10-30 5:36 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2019-10-30 5:03 PM

 

Hans - 2019-10-29 4:11 PM

 

We do our Best in belgium Brian. It was due to Belgique that the truckers were identified. It is almost impossible to avoid the desperados to enter the Uk . To cross the channel. Stowaways are very clever.

 

Good to have your input Hans. I am not familiar with the systems of personal identification in Belgium. My thoughts are that the attractiveness of the UK for illegal migrants is that none of us are obliged to carry ID cards. You would think that illegal migrants from Francophone countries would be more inclined to stay in your country. I suspect that your security and identification procedures are much better than ours.

 

But not good enough to stop them getting in. It’s an Eu wide problem.

Apart from Vietnam not being in the EU it's actually a UK problem in that successive governments have ignored EU rules on immigration because it's suited UK.

 

https://bruegel.org/2017/02/questionable-immigration-claims-in-the-brexit-white-paper/

 

Once again, you completely miss the point. *-)

And your point is.........???

 

Hey princess thats a bit rich from you ... You claimed t'other day we had I think without looking back 3 members on here who back Boris no matter what , yet when challenged to name em you named ... Errrr none ... Und then you claimed you could "safely say" why German building standards were better than ours but again when challenged you named ... Errr none ... Your point as always it would seem is a point backed up with fresh air ... Regards

[Brian Kirby]

Birdbrain - 2019-10-29 8:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

It isn't the migrants who are necessarily under-educated, it is precisely those members of their families who facilitate their attempts to emigrate west by financing them. Families of those whose relatives are believed to have died in the container, who had received texts saying they couldn't breathe and were dying, were interviewed in their homes in the Vietnamese village a number of the dead are thought to have come from.

 

They were naïve ingénues who had been convinced of the improbable possibility that if they raised a hugely inflated sum their child/relative would be transported to Europe/the UK where they would find work so well paid they would be able to send enough back home to boost the family income and pay back the debt. If that isn't evidence of a poor general education, what is?

 

So yes, those families carry some responsibility for the death of their relatives, and they will be all to aware of that.

 

But that responsibility pales to insignificance beside that of the money-lenders, fixers, traffickers and smugglers who, together with what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route.

 

It is reported that they use forged Chinese passports. Why? And why aren't those forged passports (whatever their origins) detected as they cross borders?

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish.

Aaaah so its not the poor souls that took the fateful journey that were uneducated but their parents ... Got it ... Rather a sweeping statement Brian if I may be so bold to say ... Obviously the deaths of these folk is shocking , that shocking I dont recall a lorry load of Vietnamese dying like that before ??? l have no idea how many Vietnamese make the journey to Blighty year in and year out Brian and Im sure even you dont so I dont know statistically the risk of death from the journey but its obviously worth the risk isnt it ??? I can say I know in my close family someone who spent two years on human trafficking working for the Police and now that family member is a PC dealing with human trafficking and chancers that arrive here in the UK and many of them are Vietnamese so I do have a little knowledge on how and why they come ... Many come as a sense of duty to their families , they are expected to earn the money the family feels they need so the family and not those who sell them the dream UK ticket are more responsible for their deaths IMO ... Others come here sold by their families to work in cannabis factories and prostitution which again is 100% a family issue ... Life is cheap in Vietnam and the lives of the young are sold without a second thought by many ... Regards

Which, allowing for difference in style and emphasis is pretty much exactly what I said above, isn't it? So what is your point?

 

Re "uneducated": that is not what I said. I said under-educated, which is a quite different thing and no, it is not a sweeping generalisation. The people were interviewed on camera via a translator, and demonstrated that their understanding of the risks and realities surrounding the emigration route to which they had committed their child/relative, and its costs, were hopelessly inadequate. No reasonably educated person would have been so easily taken in. So, under-educated is a fair summary. It is not a criticism of them, it is not their fault, but it is a fact.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 6:24 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-29 8:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

It isn't the migrants who are necessarily under-educated, it is precisely those members of their families who facilitate their attempts to emigrate west by financing them. Families of those whose relatives are believed to have died in the container, who had received texts saying they couldn't breathe and were dying, were interviewed in their homes in the Vietnamese village a number of the dead are thought to have come from.

 

They were naïve ingénues who had been convinced of the improbable possibility that if they raised a hugely inflated sum their child/relative would be transported to Europe/the UK where they would find work so well paid they would be able to send enough back home to boost the family income and pay back the debt. If that isn't evidence of a poor general education, what is?

 

So yes, those families carry some responsibility for the death of their relatives, and they will be all to aware of that.

 

But that responsibility pales to insignificance beside that of the money-lenders, fixers, traffickers and smugglers who, together with what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route.

 

It is reported that they use forged Chinese passports. Why? And why aren't those forged passports (whatever their origins) detected as they cross borders?

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish.

Aaaah so its not the poor souls that took the fateful journey that were uneducated but their parents ... Got it ... Rather a sweeping statement Brian if I may be so bold to say ... Obviously the deaths of these folk is shocking , that shocking I dont recall a lorry load of Vietnamese dying like that before ??? l have no idea how many Vietnamese make the journey to Blighty year in and year out Brian and Im sure even you dont so I dont know statistically the risk of death from the journey but its obviously worth the risk isnt it ??? I can say I know in my close family someone who spent two years on human trafficking working for the Police and now that family member is a PC dealing with human trafficking and chancers that arrive here in the UK and many of them are Vietnamese so I do have a little knowledge on how and why they come ... Many come as a sense of duty to their families , they are expected to earn the money the family feels they need so the family and not those who sell them the dream UK ticket are more responsible for their deaths IMO ... Others come here sold by their families to work in cannabis factories and prostitution which again is 100% a family issue ... Life is cheap in Vietnam and the lives of the young are sold without a second thought by many ... Regards

Which, allowing for difference in style and emphasis is pretty much exactly what I said above, isn't it? So what is your point?

 

Re "uneducated": that is not what I said. I said under-educated, which is a quite different thing and no, it is not a sweeping generalisation. The people were interviewed on camera via a translator, and demonstrated that their understanding of the risks and realities surrounding the emigration route to which they had committed their child/relative, and its costs, were hopelessly inadequate. No reasonably educated person would have been so easily taken in. So, under-educated is a fair summary. It is not a criticism of them, it is not their fault, but it is a fact.

 

Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ... I say again you and me dont know how high or low the risk is because me and you dont know how many make it to the land of milk and honey do we so we cant possibly get a grasp of the risk ??? The Vietnamese folk do because they know how many make it and how big a risk it is ... If its such a risk especially after those deaths then they will stop coming wont they ??? I bet they dont , I bet it carries on with the same numbers so that can only suggest the risk to those under-educated types is worth it dont ya think ???

[Guest pelmetman]

Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 6:24 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2019-10-29 8:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM

Birdbrain - 2019-10-28 7:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM

I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG.

Again, quite. Which is why, given their present circumstances, they are so easily gulled into taking ridiculous risks to get here.

 

Not in reply to Veronica, but most of this discussion has become an exercise in political willy-waving for the usual suspects, and has little to do with facts or gaining understanding.

 

If people are convinced that the grass over the hill is greener, they will go over the hill. We've been doing so for the past 350,000 years or so, it is in our DNA (that is just Homo Sapiens, others, of course, went before). If they are driven by war, famine, disease, or persecution, they will take greater and greater risks to get over the hill.

 

So, the traffickers/smugglers emphasise the disadvantages of their present circumstances, while dangling before them the advantages of the places they want to con them into travelling to. Then they explain how they will find unlimited riches and opportunities in their new land, and how easy it will be to repay the inflated cost of getting there.

 

Poorly educated and/or desperate people want to believe they are being offered a route to a better life, so unwittingly take risks no rational being would contemplate.

 

We know many die en-route. We know this is the product of international criminal activity. Yet some of us seem to hold the dead responsible for their own deaths, instead of showing them some empathy and attributing responsibility to the criminal gangs who profit from human misery? Why?

 

I haven't seen on the news these folk were "poorly educated" Brian , maybe you can point out where thats been said as up to press we dont even know the identity of most of em ??? ... As for who is responsible then maybe you might want to look at the parents/grandparents of some of these folk who will through family pressure made them take the risk to come to team UK ... I dont see how pointing out what you choose uncomfortable to digest is in any way showing a lack of "empathy" either towards these unfortunate souls , maybe you can explain ???

It isn't the migrants who are necessarily under-educated, it is precisely those members of their families who facilitate their attempts to emigrate west by financing them. Families of those whose relatives are believed to have died in the container, who had received texts saying they couldn't breathe and were dying, were interviewed in their homes in the Vietnamese village a number of the dead are thought to have come from.

 

They were naïve ingénues who had been convinced of the improbable possibility that if they raised a hugely inflated sum their child/relative would be transported to Europe/the UK where they would find work so well paid they would be able to send enough back home to boost the family income and pay back the debt. If that isn't evidence of a poor general education, what is?

 

So yes, those families carry some responsibility for the death of their relatives, and they will be all to aware of that.

 

But that responsibility pales to insignificance beside that of the money-lenders, fixers, traffickers and smugglers who, together with what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route.

 

It is reported that they use forged Chinese passports. Why? And why aren't those forged passports (whatever their origins) detected as they cross borders?

 

As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?

 

At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish.

Aaaah so its not the poor souls that took the fateful journey that were uneducated but their parents ... Got it ... Rather a sweeping statement Brian if I may be so bold to say ... Obviously the deaths of these folk is shocking , that shocking I dont recall a lorry load of Vietnamese dying like that before ??? l have no idea how many Vietnamese make the journey to Blighty year in and year out Brian and Im sure even you dont so I dont know statistically the risk of death from the journey but its obviously worth the risk isnt it ??? I can say I know in my close family someone who spent two years on human trafficking working for the Police and now that family member is a PC dealing with human trafficking and chancers that arrive here in the UK and many of them are Vietnamese so I do have a little knowledge on how and why they come ... Many come as a sense of duty to their families , they are expected to earn the money the family feels they need so the family and not those who sell them the dream UK ticket are more responsible for their deaths IMO ... Others come here sold by their families to work in cannabis factories and prostitution which again is 100% a family issue ... Life is cheap in Vietnam and the lives of the young are sold without a second thought by many ... Regards

Which, allowing for difference in style and emphasis is pretty much exactly what I said above, isn't it? So what is your point?

 

Re "uneducated": that is not what I said. I said under-educated, which is a quite different thing and no, it is not a sweeping generalisation. The people were interviewed on camera via a translator, and demonstrated that their understanding of the risks and realities surrounding the emigration route to which they had committed their child/relative, and its costs, were hopelessly inadequate. No reasonably educated person would have been so easily taken in. So, under-educated is a fair summary. It is not a criticism of them, it is not their fault, but it is a fact.

 

Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ... I say again you and me dont know how high or low the risk is because me and you dont know how many make it to the land of milk and honey do we so we cant possibly get a grasp of the risk ??? The Vietnamese folk do because they know how many make it and how big a risk it is ... If its such a risk especially after those deaths then they will stop coming wont they ??? I bet they dont , I bet it carries on with the same numbers so that can only suggest the risk to those under-educated types is worth it dont ya think ???

 

Exactly :-| .........But Loony Liberal Willy Wavers like Brian are never going to accept reality *-) ........

 

Which is why we need Boris and genuine Tories to take back control of the asylum, commonly referred to as our Parliament ;-) .........