Brian Kirby Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 747 - 2019-10-30 2:51 PM I think you are making it all up as you go along Brian. Tweetie Pie is not the only one with a close Relative who is actively engaged in People Trafficking operations. Local Police might be involved in arrests at the end of an operation but otherwise not. Border Force are the ones doing the low level checks but 'the big boys' are a different kettle of fish. They represent a danger to the security of the UK because they don't only traffic Vietnamese Nail Bar employees but also have the means to traffic terrorists and weapons. Returning British ISIS terrorists are a real risk to the UK. It is a multi Agency operation at National level. "...……………….. I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?" So, if I'm understanding you correctly, other forces are leading this investigation, and the Essex police are merely the visible end of a much larger, international, covert operation. Is that right? If so, it explains the oddities in the way the corpses were found in the truck and the speed, and pattern of arrests. So I can stop musing about why it all seems to be being left to Essex police. Is that correct? If so, excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 John52 - 2019-10-29 7:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route. . I wonder how you have drawn that conclusion? They can only search a tiny percentage of containers - so all the traffickers have to do is set someone else up to take the small risk of being stopped. If they present it to a financially struggling intellectually challenged lorry driver as a victimless crime - helping people to a better life, there is always somebody to take it on. The only solution I can see is to do what the rest of the EU does, and sort out the black economy so they can't hide under the radar when they get here. That's going to take more than asking people with nowhere else to wash their car not to use cheap car washes. Its requires the Government to do its job and enforce its laws. First, because it seems they don't do Vietnam to UK in containers. It seems at least part of their journeys are by air, and that in many cases they have forged Chinese passports. That much has been reported. Too many people pass through, it seems, for certain officials not to have been "squared" (in traditional fashion :-)) by the gangs. Their false documents should have been detected, and the carriers arrested, en-route. So, why aren't they? It could just be laziness or incompetence, but there is a lot of money washing around this venture, so selective bribery has to be a possibility. I'm sure you are right about what is required - though it can never be a total solution. As in so many areas, we have laws to give comfort, but the will to enforce is lacking. Too expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Your presuming again ... Just how are you so informed on what they were told ??? You have insider Vietnamese contacts or sumat ??? Take away these tragic deaths and just how big a risk is coming to the UK from Vietnam Brian ??? You seem to know more than most after all so you hopefully can inform us under informed ... Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 6:44 PM 747 - 2019-10-30 2:51 PM I think you are making it all up as you go along Brian. Tweetie Pie is not the only one with a close Relative who is actively engaged in People Trafficking operations. Local Police might be involved in arrests at the end of an operation but otherwise not. Border Force are the ones doing the low level checks but 'the big boys' are a different kettle of fish. They represent a danger to the security of the UK because they don't only traffic Vietnamese Nail Bar employees but also have the means to traffic terrorists and weapons. Returning British ISIS terrorists are a real risk to the UK. It is a multi Agency operation at National level. "...……………….. I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why?" So, if I'm understanding you correctly, other forces are leading this investigation, and the Essex police are merely the visible end of a much larger, international, covert operation. Is that right? If so, it explains the oddities in the way the corpses were found in the truck and the speed, and pattern of arrests. So I can stop musing about why it all seems to be being left to Essex police. Is that correct? If so, excellent. I expect your summation is very close to the truth. 39 bodies who died in suspicious circumstances were found on their patch. That is why they are involved. They will investigate the matter of course. That does not mean they are leading the investigation as this incident is just part of a bigger investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. You may well be right but they do seem to be willing participants. I’m not sure I would class them as victims,however unfortunate their circumstance, nor necessarily criminals,though it is a criminal act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 John52 - 2019-10-29 7:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-29 12:20 PM what must surely be a substantial number of corrupt officials at the numerous border crossings between Vietnam and the UK, allow these peoples to pass into, and out of, all those sates that lie along their route. . I wonder how you have drawn that conclusion? They can only search a tiny percentage of containers - so all the traffickers have to do is set someone else up to take the small risk of being stopped. If they present it to a financially struggling intellectually challenged lorry driver as a victimless crime - helping people to a better life, there is always somebody to take it on. The only solution I can see is to do what the rest of the EU does, and sort out the black economy so they can't hide under the radar when they get here. That's going to take more than asking people with nowhere else to wash their car not to use cheap car washes. Its requires the Government to do its job and enforce its laws. Corruption is endemic in poor countries. It only takes a small amount of money (by our standards) for a blind eye to be turned. There is also the threat of violence if cooperation is not forthcoming. Life is cheap in those places. I could ensure a speedy passage through Airport checks by placing 2 packets of cigarettes in my flight bag. At the time I had access to Diamonds and had an excellent chance of getting away with tiny, very valuable items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:01 PM certain officials not to have been "squared" (in traditional fashion) Yes I've had experience of that. Customs Officials have enourmous powers. In England they have more powers than the police which I understand dates from when their powers were granted by the King. He valued his tax collectors more than the police because the police were only there to protect the plebs - he had his army with unlimited powers to protect himself. Many years ago I was involved in transporting lorryloads of fine china from Stoke-on-Trent to Italy. There was an unwritten understanding the customs officer at the Italian end would help himself to a few bits of what he fancied, or he would find an excuse to delay the lorry. That stopped when we entered the EU free market. But I guess it will be coming back after Brexit. Those with perishables and other just-in-time deliveries are even more at the mercy of every foreign customs official than we were with our pottery >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 The desperation that leads to a willingness to send your dearest child on a journey fraught with danger is impossible for those of us in the comfortable west to comprehend. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-10-31 3:26 PM The desperation that leads to a willingness to send your dearest child on a journey fraught with danger is impossible for those of us in the comfortable west to comprehend. :-( Your doing real desperate people a massive disservice with that comment in my view ... Vietnamese adults aren't sent to the UK through desperation they are sent because they are expected to provide a better life for their family , it seems many Vietnamese believe the best way to do that is to send them here to Blighty ... Real desperate people dont have £10.000 to pay a trafficker for a ticket ... Real desperate people have nothing so your confusing desperation with those who just want more than they have ... If anyone is finding it impossible to comprehend anything you might want to take a look closer to home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-10-31 4:10 PM Violet1956 - 2019-10-31 3:26 PM The desperation that leads to a willingness to send your dearest child on a journey fraught with danger is impossible for those of us in the comfortable west to comprehend. :-( Your doing real desperate people a massive disservice with that comment in my view ... Vietnamese adults aren't sent to the UK through desperation they are sent because they are expected to provide a better life for their family , it seems many Vietnamese believe the best way to do that is to send them here to Blighty ... Real desperate people dont have £10.000 to pay a trafficker for a ticket ... Real desperate people have nothing so your confusing desperation with those who just want more than they have ... If anyone is finding it impossible to comprehend anything you might want to take a look closer to home You may be right Antony. The poor souls who died in that trailer may not be the children of the most unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-10-28 7:09 PM Violet1956 - 2019-10-28 3:21 PM I suspect that there is no chance for any impoverished Vietnamese national to enter the UK on a tourist visa BG. As I said way back, there is much more to emerge about this and, FWIW, I don't think Essex police, who have performed so well to date, stand a cat in hell's chance of breaking open the whole rotten chain unless they get significant support from the National Crime Agency - whose involvement I have yet to see mentioned. That, too, puzzles me. Why? At present there seems to me an uncomfortable interest in grabbing nabbing the local links in the chain, disregarding its other end, and moving on, while blaming the victims for their fates, with a good deal of virtue signalling as a side dish. Regards "local links in chain", since learning the police wanted to interview them three days ago, the Hughes brothers appear to have gone to ground. Their blue truck has been impounded so that's not going anywhere but no mention of the other truck they own. Would a friend be stupid enough to give them sanctuary? Only an idiot who'd then also be in trouble themselves. Police will already be watching any phone activity so they'd need new sim cards. Police appear to believe both are still in Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-10-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Ah, the world as seen by Dave Pelmet. Problem is, he believes it! :-D Salvation is, at least some of us live in the real world, where facts trump (oops, dodgy word) imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 12:55 PM pelmetman - 2019-10-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Ah, the world as seen by Dave Pelmet. Problem is, he believes it! :-D Salvation is, at least some of us live in the real world, where facts trump (oops, dodgy word) imagination. That real world of yours that is encouraging folk to risk their lives *-) ........... I'm glad my conscience is clear :-| .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 7:14 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Your presuming again ... Just how are you so informed on what they were told ??? You have insider Vietnamese contacts or sumat ??? Take away these tragic deaths and just how big a risk is coming to the UK from Vietnam Brian ??? You seem to know more than most after all so you hopefully can inform us under informed ... Regards I just watch, listen to, and read, the news Tweetie -it doesn't need Vietnamese contacts. The actual risk is evidenced by the deaths. The risk is death, if death were a known certainty only those in total ignorance would risk it. So are they knowing, calculating, participants, or simple, relatively innocent people who have been convinced that these is no risk? If you were selling that deal, would you emphasise the risks, or minimise them? So yes I'm presuming - I presume that the Vietnamese are, on the whole, normal people with a normal regard for the welfare of their families. OTOH, your presumption is that they are calculating, uncaring, people who see their families as an expendable resource to be used for material gain. Given the choice, I'll stick to my view of humanity, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-11-01 3:05 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 12:55 PM pelmetman - 2019-10-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Ah, the world as seen by Dave Pelmet. Problem is, he believes it! :-D Salvation is, at least some of us live in the real world, where facts trump (oops, dodgy word) imagination. That real world of yours that is encouraging folk to risk their lives *-) ........... I'm glad my conscience is clear :-| .......... The encouragement is ever-present, Dave, it comes from the dark side of humanity, and the way to counter it is not by locking up its victims, but by locking the perpetrators. Your conscience is clear because you can't, or won't, distinguish between the two and then, having suitably vilified the victims as the authors of their own misfortune, salve your conscience with that thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 3:21 PM pelmetman - 2019-11-01 3:05 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 12:55 PM pelmetman - 2019-10-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Ah, the world as seen by Dave Pelmet. Problem is, he believes it! :-D Salvation is, at least some of us live in the real world, where facts trump (oops, dodgy word) imagination. That real world of yours that is encouraging folk to risk their lives *-) ........... I'm glad my conscience is clear :-| .......... The encouragement is ever-present, Dave, it comes from the dark side of humanity, and the way to counter it is not by locking up its victims, but by locking the perpetrators. Your conscience is clear because you can't, or won't, distinguish between the two and then, having suitably vilified the victims as the authors of their own misfortune, salve your conscience with that thought. So if I get caught drink driving who's fault is it? ;-) .......... Mine or the restaurants? :-| ......... It's high time you liberal types accepted your responsibility for encouraging folk to break the law *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-11-01 3:25 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 3:21 PM pelmetman - 2019-11-01 3:05 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-11-01 12:55 PM pelmetman - 2019-10-30 7:24 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-10-30 7:09 PM Birdbrain - 2019-10-30 6:34 PM..................….Your playing with words Brian ... "uneducated" ... "under-educated" ... Your insinuating the same thing that they lacked the intelligence to grasp the risk involved ……………. No, I'm saying that they lack the information on which to make judgements concerning the wisdom of what they did. They did not seem to me unintelligent, just under informed. That is a matter of education, not of IQ. They had been conned. Nothing more educating than a week in the slammer before you get a free ticket home as soon as you illegally enter the UK :-| ........ Unfortunately that would offend your lefty ego *-) ........ Ah, the world as seen by Dave Pelmet. Problem is, he believes it! :-D Salvation is, at least some of us live in the real world, where facts trump (oops, dodgy word) imagination. That real world of yours that is encouraging folk to risk their lives *-) ........... I'm glad my conscience is clear :-| .......... The encouragement is ever-present, Dave, it comes from the dark side of humanity, and the way to counter it is not by locking up its victims, but by locking the perpetrators. Your conscience is clear because you can't, or won't, distinguish between the two and then, having suitably vilified the victims as the authors of their own misfortune, salve your conscience with that thought. 1 So if I get caught drink driving who's fault is it? ;-) .......... Mine or the restaurants? :-| ......... 2 It's high time you liberal types accepted your responsibility for encouraging folk to break the law *-) ........ Answering your question 1 above, using your logic at 2 above, the restaurant's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Curbing illegal migration requires a multi-pronged strategy. One of those strategies is to reduce the “pull-factors”. I disagree with Dave; it is not woolly liberals that are responsible for those pull factors. Enforcement of our immigration laws relies on having a border force that is sufficiently resourced to tackle illegal migration. That is why I mentioned a while ago that there are suspicious operations which rely on illegal migrants to provide us with cheap services and yet they are able to proliferate because we don’t have sufficient border force officials to monitor/raid them. In short, we get what we pay for. The illegal migrants rely on criminal networks abroad and here in the UK. We need our government of whatever political persuasion to ensure that we have the necessary resources to destroy those criminal networks and close their exploitative businesses down. Most importantly we need to have sufficient border controls to stop economic migrants entering in the first place. On that front it seems to me that we are wholly under resourced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Ahh so that’s what the Eu army is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-10-31 4:10 PM Real desperate people dont have £10.000 to pay a trafficker for a ticket ... Correct. Most if not all will be debt to the traffickers ........ >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-11-01 4:52 PM In short, we get what we pay for. ..... and how does that compare with what other EU countries pay for their military and border forces? My understanding is we are paying more than them, despite the fact our borders should be cheaper to defend as we are surrounded by water. Difference is their employment is more direct and regulated so illegals can't work under the radar. Wheras Britain hires rogue employment agencies, just pays lip service to employment law, and doesn't enforce it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-11-01 4:52 PM Curbing illegal migration requires a multi-pronged strategy. One of those strategies is to reduce the “pull-factors”. I disagree with Dave; it is not woolly liberals that are responsible for those pull factors. Enforcement of our immigration laws relies on having a border force that is sufficiently resourced to tackle illegal migration. That is why I mentioned a while ago that there are suspicious operations which rely on illegal migrants to provide us with cheap services and yet they are able to proliferate because we don’t have sufficient border force officials to monitor/raid them. In short, we get what we pay for. The illegal migrants rely on criminal networks abroad and here in the UK. We need our government of whatever political persuasion to ensure that we have the necessary resources to destroy those criminal networks and close their exploitative businesses down. Most importantly we need to have sufficient border controls to stop economic migrants entering in the first place. On that front it seems to me that we are wholly under resourced. Quite, Veronica. Plus we also need to foster and maintain international cooperation with, and exchange intelligence with, foreign powers to be able to pursue investigations outside the UK to break up the gangs and prosecute their members wherever they are. They must know that whereas they may be able to run, they won't be able to hide. Personally, I don't see where that ambition is woolly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-11-01 4:52 PM Curbing illegal migration requires a multi-pronged strategy. One of those strategies is to reduce the “pull-factors”. I disagree with Dave; it is not woolly liberals that are responsible for those pull factors. Enforcement of our immigration laws relies on having a border force that is sufficiently resourced to tackle illegal migration. That is why I mentioned a while ago that there are suspicious operations which rely on illegal migrants to provide us with cheap services and yet they are able to proliferate because we don’t have sufficient border force officials to monitor/raid them. In short, we get what we pay for. The illegal migrants rely on criminal networks abroad and here in the UK. We need our government of whatever political persuasion to ensure that we have the necessary resources to destroy those criminal networks and close their exploitative businesses down. Most importantly we need to have sufficient border controls to stop economic migrants entering in the first place. On that front it seems to me that we are wholly under resourced. I'd say our judicial system is contributing hugely to the pull factors :-| ........... How many times do we see reports that our woolly liberal judges prevented a illegal asylum seeker from being deported ? *-) ........... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/15/iranian-asylum-seeker-raped-17-year-old-spared-deportation-due/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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