replacemaent engine and gearbox

[fulhamsteve]

hi all, I own a 2002 autosleeper executive 1.9td, one of the last before the upgrade. I have been off the road for 6 months as my rebuilt gearbox (£2300) and £500, failed drastically, the oil had disappeared!!! don't ask, so im 3 grand lighter and have a box now not suitable for rebuilding. im in limbo with a van that stands me at £19000. iv had to go back to work driving artics at 67 to raise cash. what do I do? I cant find a box and no one will sell me a rebuilt box without one in return to rebulid!!!! im at my wits end, the engine has done 70,000 and is in good nick, ok its underpowered, but as a trucker, im happy plodding along, its actually good for 70mph, but slows on hills. is there a possibility of a replacement engine and box, that would fit into tmy engine bay? its the old xud engine, has anyone any knowledge on this please? or maybe someone out there can point me onto anyone who can help? a gearbox even, god forbid. do I scrap my van? any help/ advise, very gratefully received.

many thanks, I live in chorley, lancs

steve.

[fulhamsteve]

to all, I have come up as a new member, however, I joined so I thought a year ago!!!, im not good with computers!! so sorry if I hadant introduced myself!!

im steve, and I put every penny into my van which iv owned for a year, but had little use of due to ongoing gearbox problems!! iv been off the road for 6 months, my post is asking for help!!

I retired in march to travel, but have now returned to work for a while, to raise funds. not good but im lost without my van!!

thanks, steve.

[Keithl]

Hi Steve,

 

Yes you did register on the forum over a year ago, from your user profile "Date registered 2018-11-13 8:47 PM" but you had never actually posted until today.

 

As for your gearbox, what happened to the oil and why can you not go back to whoever fitted or supplied the gearbox and ask them to make good their work?

 

Keith.

[ColinM50]

Neighbour of mine owns this company;

 

https://www.a1gearboxesstneots.co.uk

 

Might be worth a call on Monday?

[Brian Kirby]

ColinM50 - 2019-12-08 11:42 AM

 

Neighbour of mine owns this company;

 

https://www.a1gearboxesstneots.co.uk

 

Might be worth a call on Monday?

As you have both engine and gearbox, could you get an engineer's report on the failure? AA and RAC used to provide this service to members (though it was chargeable). Armed with a report on the reason for the failure, you may have grounds to sue whoever rebuilt the gearbox for at least your money back. I know it carries risks, but you shouldn't be left out of pocket in the way you have been.

[hallii]

With an engine that is acceptable to you why not source a suitable gearbox? There is one on ebay for £1195 and no mention of exchange. It might be worth phoning round a few local vehicle dismantlers who, even if they haven't got one, will be able to find one "in the trade".

 

H

 

[Alanb]

Steve,

 

For background information, there is a 5 speed gearbox to suit a 2.3/2.8 JTD advertised on the Fiatforum. Asking price is £300.

 

Alan

[Keithl]

Alanb - 2019-12-08 2:03 PM

 

Steve,

 

For background information, there is a 5 speed gearbox to suit a 2.3/2.8 JTD advertised on the Fiatforum. Asking price is £300.

 

Alan

 

But would that fit Steve's 1.9 TD ???

 

I thought the JTD was the next generation?

 

Keith.

[fulhamsteve]

thanks for your replies. 1st of all the gearboxes, on ebay from rosedove, are exchange, he wouldn't even sell me one at £5000 (he told me!!) there is a specific box for my van, they are not interchangeable with any other box, which is why I was asking about engine and box replacement.

regarding a possible engineers report, obviously this means box removed and the van stored somewhere, at the moement its inside a workshop but moved every so often, you cant tie up a ramp with a motorhome on it!!

these boxes are becoming very difficult to source, they are the 1st item to sell when a van is scrapped. just going back to rosedove on ebay, I would gladly by one of hes boxes, he has comfirmed they are the correct box, but mine has not (at this time) been comfirmed whether or not it has a cracked casing rendering it useless for rebuild. the repairer will not remove the box until there is one in place for him to rebuild or fit. he will not fit a box he hasant rebuilt himself.

such a problem every way I turn.!!

any further opinions or assistance, contacts ect, gratefully received, thanks again all.

steve.

[Keithl]

So what has happened to the gearbox currently fitted?

 

You mention the case may be cracked but how?

 

Keith.

[fulhamsteve]

hi ||Keith, actually I don't think the casing is cracked, my box was rebuilt at a cost of £2300, the scuttle pipe wasant checked and water got in within weeks, I sorted the pipe, and the box had more work done, under guarantee but he asked for another £500. after 300 miles I went back, and he did an oil change, I helped pump it in for him!! 500 miles later all hell let loose 30 minutes from home, I got it back to the repairer, with noise, clanking, gears jumping about ect. when he checked it was bone dry and no sign of leakage around anywhere. he swears someone has let the oil out!!! not possible, its parked under a camera, and outside my house, but for sure where is the oil!!? the damage will be considerable, im down 3 grand and no box. its a nightmare. im trying to keep in with the repairer, he gets upset and angry if I question his ability, mentioning to fill up through the oil switch and forcing extra oil in. he says iv been unlucky!! I don't want to or intend to take the legal route, unfortunately the bloke works on his own under pressure, and is very hard to contact, and I only live 15mins away.

[mikefitz]

Peugeot/ Citroen used the 1.9 XUD engine in a number of cars and vans around 2000 and the van gearbox is not too different from the car versions. Although not a direct swap it should be possible to fit a working engine/box combination into the van. The drive shafts may/will need modification, engine mounts, and control links. The injection system is mostly mechanical although later models has some ECU control of the injection pump. Any diesel injection company could revise the specification to totally mechanical operation.

If the problem is only gearbox, then with suitable engineering support, any gearbox in the Peugeot/Citroen van range could be fitted, including the current box. The difficulty is finding a automotive company that has the ability to carry out such a modification. It seems to me that it would be a viable commercial venture to put together a package of conversion parts, so a later easily sourced and rebuildable gearbox could be fitted to early vans. The kit car industry has such conversion kits.

Of course a big snag to this is that, the existing Fiat gearbox fitted to all the Peugeot/Citroen/Fiat vans, is a very poor design, operating at near full design torque with undersized bearings and inadequate bearing support. This makes it very difficult to rebuild successfully, and a new box costs over £3k ( even with discount).

A further problem is that experienced gearbox rebuilders are hard to find as the older experienced engineers are retiring and there are few youngsters willing to enter the industry.

 

I find it hard to believe that a gearbox should loose all its oil unless there has been incorrect assembly or installation. Its common practice for the rebuild industry to offer 12 month or 12k miles warranty on a rebuild. Could not the OP take advantage of this?

 

Just read your latest post, sounds like a case for the small claims court, at least get legal advice.

The rebuild cost seems very high, the oil cannot escape by magic. I would guess he forgot to replace the oil.

 

Mike

[Keithl]

mikefitz - 2019-12-08 5:29 PM

 

... I would guess he forgot to replace the oil.

 

Mike

 

Or, as you stated you helped him fill the second box with oil, he forgot to correctly tighten the drain plug which subsequently fell out along with the oil! As he now has the 'van he could easily 'hide' this evidence.

 

I think until you pull the gearbox and examine the damage you are at a stalemate.

 

Keith.

[fulhamsteve]

thanks for your valued input Mike, firstly, I was present when the oil went in, I assisted him!!!

you raise interesting points about the fitting of a newer type of box, I didn't think this was possible. you are correct regarding these boxes were poorly made and not fit for 3tons of van. so maybe I need to find someone who can fit a different box, would have to be a clever engineer indeed|!! of formula one category I reckon!! feel free to send suggestions, at your leisure. thanks again for your reply.

steve.

[fulhamsteve]

sorry that's Keith not Mike!!

im under pressure.

[Keithl]

fulhamsteve - 2019-12-08 5:52 PM

 

sorry that's Keith not Mike!!

im under pressure.

 

Steve,

 

Slightly off-topic, you can edit a post for 30 minutes after posting. ie as long as the 'Edit' button remains on your post.

 

Keith.

[mikefitz]

You cannot loose 2 to 3 litres of thick gearbox oil without some sign external to the box. If you are taking his word that the box is empty, given his record, can you be sure this is correct?

A lack of oil would initially give symptoms of bearing noise and gear selection well before dramatic failure. I would suspect incorrect build procedure, perhaps refitting of a faulty component.

You can pursue the case with your box rebuilder or put it down to life's experience and find someone who can rebuild the box correctly.

 

Mike

[BS20]

Not sure how you paid for the work but if you used a credit card to pay you can claim off the credit card company. As long as you paid £100+ on the card they will be liable for the repair.

[Alanb]

Keithl - 2019-12-08 2:08 PM

 

Alanb - 2019-12-08 2:03 PM

 

Steve,

 

For background information, there is a 5 speed gearbox to suit a 2.3/2.8 JTD advertised on the Fiatforum. Asking price is £300.

 

Alan

 

But would that fit Steve's 1.9 TD ???

 

I thought the JTD was the next generation?

 

Keith.

 

 

That is why I said "background information".

 

Alan

[Alanb]

mikefitz - 2019-12-08 6:16 PM

 

You cannot loose 2 to 3 litres of thick gearbox oil without some sign external to the box. If you are taking his word that the box is empty, given his record, can you be sure this is correct?

A lack of oil would initially give symptoms of bearing noise and gear selection well before dramatic failure. I would suspect incorrect build procedure, perhaps refitting of a faulty component.

You can pursue the case with your box rebuilder or put it down to life's experience and find someone who can rebuild the box correctly.

 

Mike

 

I agree with Mike.

 

I have personal knowledge of two gearboxes being operated with little or no oil, both many years ago. One was on my father's Land Rover, when he managed to confuse the filler plugs for the main and transfer boxes. One box was left in a drained state. After driving about a mile, this error became apparent when the box complained loudly. Oil was added and there where no serious after effects. The second occasion was on a Renault 12 owned by me. I had collected the vehicle after a bodywork repair at a garage about 30 miles from home. About 15 miles into my return journey, I realised that the gearbox was noisy. Drove carefully home, using top gear as much as possible. At home, I subsequently drained a small quantity of silver coloured oil from the box, (I cannot recall flushing the box.) After refilling the box, the car was used without further problems. The repairing garage denied draining the oil, and there was no reason for them to have done so.. I will never know where the oil went.

 

That's two boxes that survived a severe shortage of oil, the second one after being driven several miles.

 

Alan

[Brian Kirby]

Silly question, perhaps, but is this gearbox available new via a (presumably) Peugeot commercial dealership? Michael (mikefitz) speaks above of a new box being over £3,000 with discount, which suggests he knows that they may be.

 

New box, straight (?) swap, should be less in labour charges than source s/h box, strip, examine, obtain new parts, reassemble, and re-fit. It would also come with a proper, manufacturers, warranty.

 

Me, if that route was an option I'd take it - and then set about getting the evidence (from the removed gearbox) as to what the present firm has done wrong and, with that pursue them for at least your money back, plus your additional costs.

 

There is no virtue in shielding an incompetent firm from the consequences of their incompetence. Their next customer may end up with an even bigger bill!

[ernst]

hi steve

may be a longshot but have you looked at copart uk salvage site they have total loss vans up for auction every week,you may just get lucky have a look at Lot # 57697249,thats a2.8 but it shows they come up

this week alone there is 800 commercials under 7.5 ton,most are newer vans but worth a look.

i dont envy you going back trucking i did it for 28 years and its a thankless job hope you get sorted soon.

[blaven]

Are there any links between this forum and, maybe, sister forums abroad? I’m thinking specifically of Netherlands. I see quite a number of older vans there in a very well kept state. Someone must be looking after them and keeping them on the road. There’s got to be a specialist out there somewhere.

[pagey]

there maybe a chance that a transit engine and box will fit subject to size also have you put a post on the fiat forum there are some good techs on there

[blaven]

pagey - 2019-12-11 2:07 PM

 

there maybe a chance that a transit engine and box will fit subject to size also have you put a post on the fiat forum there are some good techs on there

 

Try fiatforum.com