plop Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Everyone, Sorry not been able to check in for a while - thanks for all of the ongoing thoughts. We are currently waiting to hear about upgrading the suspension and chassis on the Chausson 650 as it is now the preferred choice to ensure the rear axle will be fine. We're also going through weighing everything we normally take this weekend and I'll be working out the weight distribution taking into where the weight is in relation to the rear axle. Once we have this sorted and we are ready to proceed with an order we will be make it contingent in writing that the base weight of the van is actually within a usable range of what the manufacturers described weight is - will want a test drive that goes via a weighbridge for certainty. If we can't fit everything in we will need to change our plans - no point blowing £60k+ and then find we can't do half what we want to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 we have one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carthago-compactline-138/202857679559?hash=item2f3b428ac7:g:7fQAAOSwz6Nd-icg this is a used example within your budget...its only 2.12m wide, so really easy to drive, and 6.4m long with double floor, large garage, huge bed(s), and the same (as nr as dammit) the same footprint as a XLWB panel van, but with non sloping sides so much roomier inside. we run ours at 3500kg, it weighs 3420 kg all up fpr a 3 mth long winter tour in Spain with electric bikes, twi batteries, satellite system, full water tank, chairs tables, etc, etc it has large water tanks, large gas bottle storage, we have a Thetford oven fitted in ours, large fridge freezer etc. as well as this one at Premium, try Go European or Southdowns depending on where you live... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 plop - 2020-02-14 8:37 AM ...We are currently waiting to hear about upgrading the suspension and chassis on the Chausson 650 as it is now the preferred choice to ensure the rear axle will be fine... Presumably you appreciate that, if you order a new Chausson 650 and have its weight maxima (overall and/or axle weights) increased by a 3rd party, this is likely to impact on the motorhome’s warranty. The DVLA and the VCA are fairly laid back about motorhome weight uprating, but the motorhome owner needs to accept that what the DVLA or VCA will be comfortable with may well not be approved by the motorhome’s manufacturer unless the weight-alteration is already available as a ‘paper exercise’ factory-option. SVTech certainly used to warn about the potential warranty-related risk of motorhome weight uprating, but the onus is on the motorhome owner to check the terms and conditions of the warranty and, if there is any ambiguity, to contact the warranty provider for advice. (Chausson’s current documentation suggests that the Fiat-based 650 model is available on a Ducato ‘light’ chassis with a gross weight of 3500kg as standard, or with 3650kg as an option. Certain Fiat-based Chaussons can be specified on a Ducato ‘heavy’ chassis (4250kg or 4400kg) but not the 514, 515, 520, 634, 650 or C656 models.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I will repeat my advice to OP, don't buy a 6.5m long van on a MWB. Another bit of advice for them, just because a manufacturer sells a certain model of van don't take it for granted that it is fit for purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plop Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 Ref the Carthago. I hadn't come across one of these - we had discounted any with that cab style as being too wide to get in our puny entrance but being that much narrower it would be possible. We're at the NEC catching coronavirus this weekend so will look out for this and any other similar options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plop Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 I'm waiting to hear from the Chausson dealer about their options to provide it with the up-rated weight and rear axle, they are quite slow at coming back about things which doesn't exactly bode well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plop Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 colin - 2020-02-17 9:58 AM I will repeat my advice to OP, don't buy a 6.5m long van on a MWB. Another bit of advice for them, just because a manufacturer sells a certain model of van don't take it for granted that it is fit for purpose. Hi, Yes I have become well aware of the fit for purpose stuff regarding the quoted weights so as I think said above, any purchase will be contingent on them doing a weighbridge check that will take everything we want with room to spare. The Chausson 650 is on the longer of the Fiat wheelbases, not the 3.45m like the Pilote so has a much smaller overhang being also 10cm shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgnbuk Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 "I'm waiting to hear from the Chausson dealer about their options to provide it with the up-rated weight and rear axle" Ford or Fiat chassis ? If you have the 16" wheel option the tyres are good for 2250kg , so adding air assistance on a Fiat rear axle can increase the axle load from 2000 to 2250kg. I asked SV Tech about doing this on my current Carado (4.05 metre wheelbase) before I bought it on a "just in case" basis, as I was unsure of the weight bias for the rear island bed configuration. With the air assistance fitted it was no problem to do this, though I only wanted the extra leeway on the rear axle & didn't want to go over 3500kg maximum. Last August SVTech were quoting £350 to do the paperwork IIRC + around £275-£300 for a basic air assistance kit, which I would have fitted myself. The Ford chassis is 2250kg maximum at the rear as standard - up to the limit of 225/65-16 tyres with 112 load index. As it happened, when I weighed the Carado fully loaded it was well inside the 2000kg axle limit, as the previous Chausson Welcome 610 (3.8 metre wheelbase) had also been. Do you think you will have a rear axle loading issue, or investigating "just in case" ? Nigel B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 it depends in the balance of your van.... we have a shortish wheelbase on a 6.4m van (great for manoevring) with a large rear garage and as i said above it runs at 3420 kg all up... but note the axle weights are well balanced with good spare capacity on each.. Rear axle 1820kg (max 2000) spare 180kg Front axle 1600kg (max 1850) spare 250kg Gross 3420 kg (max 3500) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 plop - 2020-02-17 5:20 PM I'm waiting to hear from the Chausson dealer about their options to provide it with the up-rated weight and rear axle, they are quite slow at coming back about things which doesn't exactly bode well..... Chausson’s “Technical characteristics” UK documentation for the 2020 model year can be found here. https://www.chausson-camping-cars.fr/wp-content/uploads/chausson-2020_cat-tech_Q3_UK.pdf I’m not sure if you really understand motorhome weights (This will, after all, be your 1st motorhome and its a complex subject) but a Type-Approved coachbuilt model like the Chausson 650 will be built in two ‘stages’, with each stage resulting in a Certificate of Conformity (CoC). Besides appearing on the Fiat-produced CoC, weight-related information for the 1st stage (ie. for the Ducato chassis) will be on a Fiat data-plate within the motorhome’s engine compartment. Similarly, for the 2nd stage (ie. the conversion carried out by Chausson) within the engine compartment there will be a 2nd data-plate with weight-related infomation on it and provided by Chausson. As I said earlier, the Chausson 650 model can be ordered on a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis with a maximum overall weight of 3500kg or 3650kg, but in both cases the vehicle’s ‘mechanical’ specification will be the same. My 2015 Rapido 640F was built on a Fiat Ducato 3650kg ‘light’ camping-car chassis and its Fiat data-plate carries the following weight-related values 3650kg - maximum overall weight 6150kg - maximum train weight 1850kg - maximum front-axle weight 2000kg - maximum rear-axle weight I specified the more-normal 3500kg overall weight maximum and the Rapido data-plate carries the following values 3500kg - maximum overall weight 5500kg - maximum train weight 1850kg - maximum front-axle weight 2000kg - maximum rear-axle weight You’ll notice that the maximum train weight (ie. the total of the motorhome + anything towed) on the Rapido data-pate is lower than Fiat's train weight and this is not uncommon. You’ll also note that the maximum axle weights are the same on the Fiat and Chausson data-plates. What I’m getting at is that the Chausson 650, although available with a 3650kg maximum overall weight, will not have a ‘stronger’ rear axle or a different axle-weight maxima to the 3500kg version. In both cases the front and rear axle maximum weights will be respectively 1850kg and 2000kg. Where the 3650kg version gains is that it offers an extra 150kg of user-payload, though this might not be exploitable if the rear axle hits its maximum weight limit. (If there is an overall weight choice and the higher weight is specified, it’s also quite common for a motorhome converter to reduce the train weight value.) The Ducato-based Chausson 650 seems to come as standard with 16”-diameter alloy wheels, so its tyres would probably have a Load Index of 116 equating to a maximum axle weight of 2500kg (2 x 1250kg). But Chausson are not going to give you the opportunity to order a 650 model with a heavier-duty rear axle or a 2500kg rear-axle weight maximum - you can order a 3500kg or 3650kg version with 1850kg (front) and 2000kg (rear) axle maxima and that’s your lot. If you wanted significantly more user-payload or significantly higher axle-weight maxima than the 650 model can provide, Chausson offers other models that can be ordered on a Ducato ‘heavy’ camping-car chassis - but all of those models are longer than 6.5 metres. After you had bought a Chausson 650 3650kg version, if you then decided you wanted to ‘uprate’ its rear-axle weight maximum and/or its overall weight maximum, you could use SVTech to middle-manage that process, and ‘mechanically’ this should just mean fitting rear air-bellows. But don’t expect Chausson to authorise that this be done before you bought the vehicle, nor to authorise a Chausson dealer to do it afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 our 'light' chassis was originally plated at 3650 by Fiat but at 3850 (1850 + 2000) by Carthago as the van had been fitted with optional 16" higher weight rated wheels/tyres...we chose to run it at 3500 (it was more than doable) for several reasons and it is plated as such. AFAIK, shpuld i choose to, i could easily run this van at either of the two heavier weights without a physical change, there is no air assistance fitted to the rear axle, merely the wheel/tyre upgrade taking it beyond 3650 to 3850, although if i wanted to upplate there would be no point in running at 3650 as i have the changes necessary to run at 3850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 It is worth observing that the Carthago c-compactline I 138 is built on a Fiat Ducato cowl-unit with a special AL-KO low-frame ‘light’ chassis grafted on the back, whereas a Chausson 650 is built on an ordinary Fiat Ducato ‘camping-car’ chassis-cab unit. An AL-KO chassis with its independent rear suspension system is radically different to a Ducato camping-car chassis and, while it is not that unusual for motorhomes with an AL-KO ‘light’ chassis to be offered with a maximum overall weight of 3850kg, it is uncommon for motorhomes with a Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis to be marketed with a maximum overall weight above 3650kg. Even though your motorhome and Chausson’s 650 model both have 16”-diameter wheels and tyres with a high load-bearing capability, Carthago officially approves a 3850kg weight-maximum, but Chausson only approves 3650kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 thanks Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plop Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-18 2:38 PM plop - 2020-02-17 5:20 PM I'm waiting to hear from the Chausson dealer about their options to provide it with the up-rated weight and rear axle, they are quite slow at coming back about things which doesn't exactly bode well..... Chausson’s “Technical characteristics” UK documentation for the 2010 model year can be found here. https://www.chausson-camping-cars.fr/wp-content/uploads/chausson-2020_cat-tech_Q3_UK.pdf I’m not sure if you really understand motorhome weights (This will, after all, be your 1st motorhome and its a complex subject) but a Type-Approved coachbuilt model like the Chausson 650 will be built in two ‘stages’, with each stage resulting in a Certificate of Conformity (CoC). Besides appearing on the Fiat-produced CoC, weight-related information for the 1st stage (ie. for the Ducato chassis) will be on a Fiat data-plate within the motorhome’s engine compartment. Similarly, for the 2nd stage (ie. the conversion carried out by Chausson) within the engine compartment there will be a 2nd data-plate with weight-related infomation on it and provided by Chausson. As I said earlier, the Chausson 650 model can be ordered on a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis with a maximum overall weight of 3500kg or 3650kg, but in both cases the vehicle’s ‘mechanical’ specification will be the same. My 2015 Rapido 640F was built on a Fiat Ducato 3650kg ‘light’ camping-car chassis and its Fiat data-plate carries the following weight-related values 3650kg - maximum overall weight 6150kg - maximum train weight 1850kg - maximum front-axle weight 2000kg - maximum rear-axle weight I specified the more-normal 3500kg overall weight maximum and the Rapido data-plate carries the following values 3500kg - maximum overall weight 5500kg - maximum train weight 1850kg - maximum front-axle weight 2000kg - maximum rear-axle weight You’ll notice that the maximum train weight (ie. the total of the motorhome + anything towed) on the Rapido data-pate is lower than Fiat's train weight and this is not uncommon. You’ll also note that the maximum axle weights are the same on the Fiat and Chausson data-plates. What I’m getting at is that the Chausson 650, although available with a 3650kg maximum overall weight, will not have a ‘stronger’ rear axle or a different axle-weight maxima to the 3500kg version. In both cases the front and rear axle maximum weights will be respectively 1850kg and 2000kg. Where the 3650kg version gains is that it offers an extra 150kg of user-payload, though this might not be exploitable if the rear axle hits its maximum weight limit. (If there an overall weight choice and the higher weight is specified, it’s also quite common for a motorhome converter to reduce the train weight value.) The Ducato-based Chausson 650 seems to come as standard with 16”-diameter alloy wheels, so its tyres would probably have a Load Index of 116 equating to a maximum axle weight of 2500kg (2 x 1250kg). But Chausson are not going to give you the opportunity to order a 650 model with a heavier-duty rear axle or a 2500kg rear-axle weight maximum - you can order a 3500kg or 3650kg version with 1850kg (front) and 2000kg (rear) axle maxima and that’s your lot. If you wanted significantly more user-payload or significantly higher axle-weight maxima than the 650 model can provide, Chausson offers other models that can be ordered on a Ducato ‘heavy’ camping-car chassis - but all of those models are longer than 6.5 metres. After you had bought a Chausson 650 3650kg version, if you then decided you wanted to ‘uprate’ its rear-axle weight maximum and/or its overall weight maximum, you could use SVTech to middle-manage that process, and ‘mechanically’ this should just mean fitting rear air-bellows. But don’t expect Chausson to authorise that this be done before you bought the vehicle, nor to authorise a Chausson dealer to do it afterwards. Yes thanks I get all that. The "paper exercise only" route is of little use as it gives nothing more on the rear axle where the majority of weight will be. It is about getting additional rear axle capacity. SV Tech and others are coming in around £900 fitted for the up-rated air suspension. The Chausson dealer said they would sort it with SV tech who they usually work with and it wouldn't affect any warranty. I will make sure to get that in writing of course - I trust any vehicle salesman about as far as I can spit them... Train weight is also not a concern as the trailer and boat combined will be 600kg absolute max (even full of wine coming back from France) and I can adjust the nose weight to be what I like as it's my own bespoke trailer that I can alter the positions on very easily. I normally have it about 25-30kg so there is just a small amount acting positively on the tow bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 plop - 2020-02-18 6:52 PM ...SV Tech and others are coming in around £900 fitted for the up-rated air suspension... This December 2019 forum thread may be of interest https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-rear-axle/54104/ In it I mentioned that an Italian-made easy-to-fit air-bellows kit was available for under €400 https://www.sospensionieasytop.it/en/catalogue/2~fiat/fiat-ducato-x250-dal-2006-al-2016-iii-serie.html but a ‘professional’ installation would obviously add significantly to the cost. Prices for a VB semi-air kit are quoted here https://www.rhinoinstalls.co.uk/vb-semiair---x250--x244--2002---current--fiat-ducato--citroen-relay--peugeot-boxer Basic kit (supply only) - £464.95 Basic kit (supply and fit) - £695.00 Comfort kit (supply only) - £774.95 Comfort kit (supply and fit) - £1165.00 The Comfort kit includes a 12V compressor and a control-panel with two pressure gauges. As your motorhome will have a tow-bar (that will affect rear ground clearance) and it’s probable that you will not always be towing with the rear garage heavily loaded, you might be wise to opt for a semi-air kit that includes a compressor operable from the cab - that way you could easily adjust the motorhome’s rear ride height and spring-rate according to how the motorhome is being used. plop - 2020-02-18 6:52 PM The Chausson dealer said they would sort it with SV tech who they usually work with and it wouldn't affect any warranty. I will make sure to get that in writing of course - I trust any vehicle salesman about as far as I can spit them... The Ducato chassis on which a Chausson 650 is built is not available from Fiat with any form of rear-axle air assistance. Fiat does offer a range of different rear springs (including a composite-material variant) but the springs a Chausson 650 comes with will be whatever Fiat and Chausson will have jointly concluded are appropriate for that model’s specification and purpose. Some motorhome manufacturers do offer rear air suspension (normally on vehicles with an AL-KO chassis) and choosing that option may allow a increase in the standard weight values - but Chausson’s options list does not include the opportunity to alter a 650 model’s rear suspension in any way. Fiat won’t authorise modifications to a new Ducato’s rear suspension and, if a semi-air kit were fitted and problems occurred as a result, this could impact negatively on the Fiat warranty. Similarly, Fiat won’t authorise 'retro-increasing’ a new motorhome’s axle-weight maxima or maximum overall weight beyond the values that Fiat has originally specified. Realistically, a good quality, properly-installed semi-air kit fitted to a new Chausson 650 should not cause trouble, and loading the vehicle’s rear axle a couple of hundred kilograms beyond its standard 2000kg maximum should be OK too. But neither a Chausson dealer, nor SVTech, nor the DVLA or VCA are in a position to say with certainty how Fiat would react warranty-wise if modifying the rear suspension and increasing the weight maxima was done after the motorhome had been completed. You’d need to accept that, in the unlikely event there happened to be problems in future and the suspension/weight changes were considered to be causal, Fiat might wash their hands of the matter. (Do you REALLY need to buy a Chausson? My experience of the make over the years has been that build quality tends to be unpredictable (I’ve seen brand-new Chausson motorhomes fresh from the Tournon factory in a lamentable condition at French dealerships) and I’d be very wary of the long-term reliability of the 650’s powered drop-down bed. Your choice though - I hope you won’t be disappointed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K2 Rum Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 Slightly, but not too slightly off topic. After me driving both of us round the twist with seemingly millions of motor home options and 'must have' extras, we took the plunge and bought a 5 year old, low mileage Carthago Malibu. Great choice , it is well made, comfy and brilliantly well equipped. I wanted a garage, for my bike, but can fit most of what we need under the fixed rear bed- including the bike. Really happy with our choice even though its early days Roll on the summer (whenever that may be) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 an A class cab doesnt mean it makes the van any wider, merely that the van is the same width for all of its length....ie no narrowing of cab at the forward end... so, you get a roomier than normal cab...even in our 15cm narrower than normal van... as i sad, the same footprint as a large PVC but tons more room, better insulation, double floor for electrics, heating and water pipes (giving heated floor) water tanks and storage, huge garage, two very large ready made double beds... and far easier to drive than a full width coachbuilt but with a far better view out. add in large water tanks, twin batteries and a solar panel and you have real long term, four season van in a smaller, easier to manage size..... and the garage means no need for a bike rack.... what's the point of buying a smaller van (6.5m) and then putting a 0.75m bike rack and turning the van into a 7.25m one? and then having your bikes on view and out in the rain....? a 2nd hand i138 would be a steal against a new Chausson, Pilote or similar. for two (for us two anyway) its pretty much the perfect van.... yes, we love it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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