6.5m newbie motorhome choice

[plop]

Hi,

 

We are buying our first motorhome and the key constraints are 6.5m max length and large garage.

 

We've seen hundreds of different models over the last few weeks and now we have shortlisted it down to:

 

6.5m Chausson 683eb - one available second hand. £43k. 2017 Ford so not AdBlue? 170BHP

Has awning and bike rack already fitted so we just need towbar and check external gas and shower points. No longer made.

 

6.4m Chausson Flash 634 - new £50k but needs awning, bike rack, towbar, external gas and shower so probably another £2.5k to £3k I think - tbc. Ford 170BHP must be Adblue tbc. I can't find any second hand.

 

6.5m Pilote P650C - £57k new. Fiat based 150BHP. needs awning, bike rack, towbar, external gas and shower so again £2.5k to £3k. I can't find any second hand.

 

I wonder if anyone has any experience of these models?

 

There appears to be very little info or reviews or even videos on YouTube foe the 638EB but it basically looks like a P650C but is about £16k cheaper.

 

They all appear ok towing max 750kg unbraked - we don't need that much for our boats so that is good.

 

Do any of these have a particularly good/bad reputation or anything particularly good or bad to be aware of that anybody could advise on?

 

All are within budget but I'm wondering about getting the cheaper 638EB as our first one so we can understand exactly what our requirements are then we could always upgrade/change in a couple of years time.

 

Finally on a thought for part-ex later on, for the 638EB for example at £43k, what would a dealer potentially give me for it do you think? I've no idea what margin they would work on and are many motor homes sold privately?

 

Your thoughts/help will be greatly appreciated!

[Steve H]

Plop

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Within our group there is a wealth of knowledge and experience, and I'm sure there are folk who will be able to offer you the help and advice you need. In the meantime I will offer you my thoughts.

 

Some say you buy up to four or five motorhomes before you buy the right one for you. I disagree completely.

 

I believe you need only buy one, provided you do your homework.

 

Research is everything, and it looks as if you've made a good start. If you have a budget large enough to buy new, then do so, just make sure you buy the right one.

 

You clearly have your own short list, so perhaps consider renting one or two of those you have on your list for a few days.There is no substitute for the practical experience of using a vehicle. Yes it will be a bit pricey but not nearly as expensive of making the wrong choice when you buy.

 

Remember also that in buying new you have the opportunity to get the chassis undersealed from new as well as having the extras and spec that you want rather than 'inheriting' somebody else's.

 

As for the additional cost of adding a tow bar, bike rack etc - peanuts compared with the expense of buying the wrong vehicle with those items already fitted.

 

Happy travelling!

 

[plop]

Thanks, yes we have an exhaustive checklist of features/requirements that we are working through and come to these 3, any of which I think will do.

 

I do want to double check the heating whether it is gas or diesel on all of them?

 

Are there any pro's / cons of diesel vs gas heating?

 

Diesel reduces the limited gas consumption which seems sensible and is topped up as you go.

[Keithl]

plop - 2020-02-02 7:32 PM

 

I do want to double check the heating whether it is gas or diesel on all of them?

 

Are there any pro's / cons of diesel vs gas heating?

 

Diesel reduces the limited gas consumption which seems sensible and is topped up as you go.

 

But Diesel heaters are noisy (think jet engine outside the MH), smelly and require substantial battery power to run. And if installed correctly will not run with less than 1/4 a tank of diesel (to prevent you running out of fuel for the engine).

 

Gas heaters of the convector variety require no 12 volt power whereas blown air heating requires some 12 volt power. and considerably less than diesel.

 

Combined 230 volt and gas heaters seem to be the best compromise as you do not use gas when on EHU.

 

Keith.

[Sapper520]

We tried to find a used Campervan, incorporating all what we considered essential, but found we were having to compromise too much.

 

Eventually, having spent almost 12 months looking for ‘the right one’, we ended up ordering a new one with exactly the right layout and extras we wanted.

 

It’s our first Campervan and intended to be our long term vehicle. We’ve had to double our original budget to get what we want, and hopefully done all the right homework.

 

Take delivery in September. :-D

[weldted]

Don't forget payload, if your towing the nose weight of the trailer will make a dent in it especially depending how far the Towbar is from the rear axle. And the weight of the Towbar itself.

[plop]

Thanks everyone that is all really helpful advice.

 

I will check the nose weight on the trailer this week and I'm taking the whole rig to the weighbridge as well.

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that, in your posting of 14 January 2020 4:01 PM in this January 2020 thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Newbie-seeking-make-model-advice/54211/

 

you said "Just booked a Roller Team T-Line 590 for a long weekend early February”

 

and this may cause you to revise your present short-list.

 

As far as comparison between Chausson and Pilote models is concerned, the French would probably consider Pilote to have more ‘class’. It’s certainly true that, historically, Chausson has targeted the cheaper end of the motorhome marketplace.

 

You may well not find an in-depth review of a specific non-UK-built model, particularly if few have been imported to the UK. But there is normally plenty of information on-line that should be useful - for example this YouTube video of a 2017 Chausson 638EB

 

[mgnbuk]

My 1st March registered Chausson Welcome 610 on the Ford chassis had the Euro 6 170hp Adblue engine. IIRC that engine became the standard starting September 2016. Again IIRC the earlier 2.2 litre engine was rated lower, so if you are seeing a 170 hp engine it will have Adblue.

 

I liked the 610 layout, but hated driving the Ford - for me it was uncomfortable over any distance, the rather bizzare ultra high gearing made driving a chore & fuel consumption was much higher than my previous Fiat. But it was the unreliability & dismal after care from Ford that made me move it on. There were many injector issues on the early production Euro 6 Transits - mine need a set of 4 after less than 50 miles & I know from the dealer that the next owner had another set of 4 fitted. IIRC roughly a third of the Ford based vans that dealer supplied had the problem. On my last recall visit to Ford I mentioned the rather high consumption to the technician - he replied that all motorhome owners complained about high consumptions on Transits & that the 26mpg tank average showing on mine at the time was "better than most". I didn't mention that I had found through calculation that the readout was typically 3 mpg optimistic !

 

So, liking the 610 layout, I swapped the Ford for the "same" 610 on a 150hp Fiat. The Fiat bit was great - no problems at all, comfortable on a run and better consumption than the Ford - but the Chausson build quality was dire. The "same" 610 had been substantially altered in many areas - some I was aware of when I signed up for it & some I wasn't. Warranty response from Chausson was sluggish at best, but some things required repeated replacement of the same parts - the overcab rooflight is a pretty major item to fail (it warped when opened in hot weather, then didn't fit the roof profile when closed, so leaked in when it rained) & the first warranty replacement (which did appear to have been modified) failed in the same way the first time it was opened. I don't think the models you list have drop down beds, the the repeated failures of parts of that won't apply.

 

Do be aware that the payloads infered in the Chausson brochures are optimistic before you start adding extras - get a weighbridge readout to find out what the van you may be interested in actually has - mine were around 70-100 kg "light" on payload compared to the brochure values. The Ford had less payload than the Fiat for the same model - IIRC 70kg more.

 

Do have the diesel heating demonstrated to see that you can put up with the noise (the internal circulating fan is a lot noisier than a Truma Combi & the fuel pump ticks) and that the heat is adequately distibuted - I gave up on the last 610 because the onboard heater was incapable of adequately heating the bathroom & Chausson didn't want to know. Neither van had responsive room thermostats, so it was not possible to "set and forget" to get a comfortable temperature. The heater takes a lot of current to start and stop, so much so that the living area lights flashed when the heater started up or stopped, even on EHU.

 

I tow a motorcycle trailer with my vans - typically around 650kg loaded & unbraked. The Fiat chassis was more firmly sprung than the Ford & the Fiat was more comfortable to tow with - the Ford tended to pitch fore and aft on it's softer springs over bumpy or undulating surfaces. The Ford's high gearing also worked against it when towing, requiring a lot more gearchanging on hills - the opposite of what I was expecting with the Ford having the supposedly more powerful engine.

 

I will admit to being rather bitter and twisted when it comes to both the new Transit and Chausson - between them they caused me a lot of upset and cost a not insubstantial amount of money, so make of these comments what you will. I may just have been doubly unlucky & got Friday Afternoon vans on two occasions, but I didn't have any issues that others hadn't reported in other threads on other forums.

 

Nigel B

[plop]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-03 9:09 AM

 

I notice that, in your posting of 14 January 2020 4:01 PM in this January 2020 thread

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Newbie-seeking-make-model-advice/54211/

 

you said "Just booked a Roller Team T-Line 590 for a long weekend early February”

 

and this may cause you to revise your present short-list.

 

As far as comparison between Chausson and Pilote models is concerned, the French would probably consider Pilote to have more ‘class’. It’s certainly true that, historically, Chausson has targeted the cheaper end of the motorhome marketplace.

 

You may well not find an in-depth review of a specific non-UK-built model, particularly if few have been imported to the UK. But there is normally plenty of information on-line that should be useful - for example this YouTube video of a 2017 Chausson 638EB

 

 

Hi,

 

Yes I had seen that video thanks, but having done a 450 mile round trip to view the 638EB it is unfortunately not viable with the under bed storage not being close to the Pilote and just otherwise "not quite working".

 

They were expecting to have a Chausson 650 in but it hadn't arrived unfortunately - that looks really rather good as well.

 

The Roller Team won't work for us as the storage is tiny but we are hiring it so we can tape an extra 50cm cardboard block on the back to mimic the other options to make sure we can make get the other s in and out - we can't hire things like the Pilote from what I can find out out.

 

The T-Line has the same width and wheelbase so this will ensure we can get a true idea of the viability of the P650C/Chausson 650 or 634.

[plop]

Nigel,

 

Thanks that is some great personal knowledge in your post. I was surprised to hear the Ford gearing and mpg figures - I must say I was expecting the Ford to be better on the driving front.

 

Also the suspension issue makes it sound like towing with the Ford is certainly less impressive compared to the Fiat.

 

It is exactly this info that can only be gleaned from someone with experience so that is tremendous and helping us lean towards the Pilote.

[globebuster]

I had a Chausson S2 about 8 years ago - a brilliant design and the build quality was just about Okay.

 

However the rear corners of the floor started to get damp on the underside by year 3 - something I've subsequently seen on others. I had to do quite a lot of remedial work in several areas to get it half decent.

 

I think Chausson build quality has dipped further in recent years, I quite liked the double hab door model [711?] but the quality of materials and finish were bloody awful.

 

It's a shame as Chausson are great design innovators.

 

If it were me I'd go for the Pilote, a brand I've never owned but always thought were good, although payload on some is dire at 3500kg

[charleydog]

I confirm all of Nigel Bs opinion of the chausson on the Ford. Our 630 had four sets of injectors in one year,and the external locker handles took five months to resolve, But, they are good value for money given the amount of storage and clever living ideas, build quality is no-frills and practical, which is reflected in the pricing. And, faith in the electric beds and table,in the long term comes into question.

[Guest rael]

Keithl - 2020-02-02 8:37 PM

 

plop - 2020-02-02 7:32 PM

 

I do want to double check the heating whether it is gas or diesel on all of them?

 

Are there any pro's / cons of diesel vs gas heating?

 

Diesel reduces the limited gas consumption which seems sensible and is topped up as you go.

 

But Diesel heaters are noisy (think jet engine outside the MH), smelly and require substantial battery power to run. And if installed correctly will not run with less than 1/4 a tank of diesel (to prevent you running out of fuel for the engine).

 

Gas heaters of the convector variety require no 12 volt power whereas blown air heating requires some 12 volt power. and considerably less than diesel.

 

Combined 230 volt and gas heaters seem to be the best compromise as you do not use gas when on EHU.

 

Keith.

 

Diesel heaters WERE noisy. We currently have a 2018 Challenger Vany with Webasto heating. There is very little noise these days with modern diesel heaters. They use very little fuel, you don't have to change gas bottles as often, and it can run whilst you are on the move. As ours is a PVC we only take one gas bottle so save quite a bit of space as well. Once they are up to temperature, you can just set the thermostat and forget about it. We leave ours on a low level over night and have never been woken by it and I'm a light sleeper. We did have a 2013 Chausson Flash with Eberspacher diesel heating, which was a little more noisy, but it didn't trouble us. we then had a 2016 Sunlight T67 with conventional gas bottle heating. Never again! I got sick of changing gas bottles all the time, so specifically looked for diesel heating for our current van. Its horses for courses, but having experienced both diesel and gas heating I would always go diesel.

[plop]

Hi Everyone,

 

Well we've seen the Chausson 650 in the flesh and it appears to suit as well as the Pilote P650C. Neither have any second hand ones available it seems.

 

The diesel heating on the Chausson seemed very quiet - no problem there.

 

The T-Line 590 we hired worked very well - my wife was actually turning the heating down even though it down close to freezing and jolly old storm Ciara was battering us all weekend down Exmouth way.

 

If it works for that then we are good to go!

 

Looks like getting either in our limited drive will work after we bodged a massive cardboard extension onto the back of the hire van and could get it in and out ok. The wheelbase on the Chausson is a bit longer than the Pilote and T-Line 590 but it is marginally narrower and shorter at 640cm than the Pilote at 650.

 

Just trying to get quotes for both of them with the various things we want/need and then make a final decision very shortly.

 

Thanks everyone for contributing - really good stuff and much appreciated.

[Robbo]

I wouldn't buy a Ford based MH if you paid me. Too many seem to get stolen for spare parts.

 

If you do buy Ford, make sure you get it fully protected with a top quality alarm system and tracker. That's an extra £2k you need to add to the basic cost.

 

The complete tow bar installation will weigh about 35kg at least. The nose weight of the trailer could be around 50kg. This combination will add about 140kg to the rear axle. This is quite a significant amount if your overall payload is only 400kg. It may be worth considering a van with a MAM greater than 3500kg if your driving licence permits this. However, 6.5m vans tend to be mainly available with a MAM of 3500kg, although if buying new, a heavier chassis can be specified. This would also allow more weight to be carried in the garage.

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s possible that a new Pilote P650C could be ordered on a 3650kg chassis rather than the standard 3500kg, but I’m not sure if that would alter the maximum axle loadings.

 

Side-on photos (attached image is of 2018 example) show a surpringly long rear overhang for a vehicle with a length of just 6.5m. The rear garage is full-width and voluminous, so some care would be needed regarding what is to be stored within the garage, particularly if the motorhome is to be used for towing.

[colin]

Looks like it's built on the MWB chassis, that one looks to be heavily laden on rear axle.

[Robbo]

Derek's photo above, demonstrates very clearly the problems involved.

 

A crude measurement of the photo indicates an overhang of 2.2m and wheelbase of 3.6m. Assuming an additional 0.2m for the tow hitch brings the effective overhang to 2.4m. My "back of a fag packet" calculation is now revised to 145kg additional imposed load on the rear axle. It's all to do with the "see-saw" effect with the rear axle being the fulcrum.

 

Perhaps the OP should consider vans shod with 16" tyres (as opposed to 15") and uprate the load capacity of the rear axle with air-assist suspension, providing his/her driving licence permits this. This would allow an additional load of 200kg on the rear axle (taking into account the additional weight of the air-assist).

 

I've seen vans with very short rear overhangs and noticed how odd they look (can't remember make). Ideal though for towing or mounting a rear rack.

[plwsm2000]

That overhang on such a short van just doesn't look right.

 

Just using a ruler on Derek's photo gives an axle spacing of about 3.7m and the distance from the rear axle to the centre of the garage is about 1.7m (scaled from the 6.5m length).

 

A quick calculation says that, for every 100kg in the rear garage, 146kg will be added to the rear axle load and 46kg lifted off the front axle. That is quite a high ratio and you would have to be very careful when loading such a vehicle.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

My Rapido motorhome is 6.5m long and built on a Ducato camping-car chassis with a 3800mm wheelbase that I believe in Fiat-speak is called the 'long' wheelbase.

 

I'm guessing that the Pilote P650C is on the 3450mm 'medium' wheelbase as its rear overhang looks a good deal longer than my Rapido's.

[colin]

Robbo - 2020-02-12 10:05 AM

 

Perhaps the OP should consider vans shod with 16" tyres (as opposed to 15") and uprate the load capacity of the rear axle with air-assist suspension, providing his/her driving licence permits this. This would allow an additional load of 200kg on the rear axle (taking into account the additional weight of the air-assist).

 

Better still would be to discount any 6.5m vans built on the MWB chassis.

[Derek Uzzell]

Not always easy to obtain wheelbase data...

 

Chausson’s literature says that the 650 model (Fiat version) is 6.36m long with a 3800mm wheelbase, or (Ford version) 6.39m long with a 3750mm wheelbase.

 

Fiat/Ford versions of the 634 model have the same respective 6.36m/ 6.39m lengths, but the wheelbase is (Fiat) 3450mm or (Ford) 3300mm.

[Robbo]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-13 7:57 AM

 

Not always easy to obtain wheelbase data...

 

Chausson’s literature says that the 650 model (Fiat version) is 6.36m long with a 3800mm wheelbase, or (Ford version) 6.39m long with a 3750mm wheelbase.

 

Fiat/Ford versions of the 634 model have the same respective 6.36m/ 6.39m lengths, but the wheelbase is (Fiat) 3450mm or (Ford) 3300mm.

 

I've always assumed the front axle to front of vehicle dimension to be roughly 900mm.

 

Therefore, the Chausson 650 (Fiat) rear overhang is 1.66m. This seems to provide a better balanced van for the OP's purposes.

[Conrad]

Just a thought - folk seem to go on about the length of vans, but in my experience of switching from a VW campervan to a big boy's toy, the height matters when you come to eg getting into some carparks and windage/fuel consumption, as well as I think the rate on some continental toll motorways, and the width can be a bit hairy at times, ok on designated single track roads but our worst experience was in the Lake District, where an A-class road was a tight two lane and we had to pull over for lorries, coaches etc.