Mickydripin Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Hi all, I posted about my vehicle battery going flat last week so I went to get a price on a system to charge my Vehicle and habitation batteries from my solar panel and my electric hook up they want £350 My solar panel already charges my Habitation battery is it easy to get my Engine battery to do the same. My solar panel is quite good and on the clock it says my hab battery is charging at 14V with not too much sun. If not do you think that the price is reasonable. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 If you look at the VANBITZ website they have a battery master item that should do the job.There is also one shown on ebay item number 382551218919 which describes how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 This 12-page MHFacts discussion may be of interest https://forums.motorhomefacts.com/182-electrical/35350-battery-master-v-cbe-csb-2-a.html (Whether the £350 quoted is a ‘reasonable’ price for installing a system to charge Mike’s motorhome’s starter and leisure batteries from the vehicle’s solar-panel and/or a 230V hook-up will depend on what the installer plans to do. On the Van Bitz website https://www.vanbitz.com/product/battery-master/ £130 is quoted for supplying/installing a Battery Master. However, the £350 price may wll relate to a more sophisticated arrangement.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Hmmm.... DIY Option The CBE system uses a special "mains on" output from the CB516, or similar charger to operate a relay on the DS300 or DS520, where a blocking diode for preventing the starter battery discharging into the habitation battery, and a current (2A) limiting thermistor are mounted. The Schaudt elektroblok functions in a similar manner. Given reasonable wiring skills, I would be tempted to try the following: 12V Under Voltage Relay Module £6.09 delivered from China on Ebay. C945 current limiting thermistor £5.77 for 5 off delivered from Poland on Ebay. SB5100 Schottky blocking diode £2.99 for 2 off delivered on Ebay Total of above is £14.85 with 4 thermistors and 1 diode surplus to requirements. The thermistor and diode would need mounting in a ventilated box as the thermistor in particular could get warm when in use. Then there would be the need for some cable and perhaps an inline fuses close to each battery. Perhaps the thermistor and diode could be mounted on a high temperature (melamine?) connecting block, so no soldering if that skill is not available. Possibly the most demanding task would be the need to adjust the voltage relay module, to cut out at about 13.6V. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Hi alan, Derek and buddy, I have looked at your posts and looked around. First Alanb yours would proberly work but a bit too complicated for me, Derek what you said about the battery master would be ok but it would mean me going to Taunton which is a round trip of well over 300 miles Buddy said about the same thing thanks for your posts but I checked around and rang Spinney near Holmes chapel only about 15 miles away and they priced a Battery mate for £100 fitted and VAT included better than £350 and I have booked it in for next Wednesday will let you know how I get on in the near future. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 Mike I wasn’t suggesting you traipse down to Taunton for Van Bitz to install their “Battery Master” - just that they charged £130 for supplying and fitting the product. I assume that - for the £100 + VAT - Spinney will be installing a “Battery Master”, not a “Battery Mate”? There used to be a “Battery Mate” product that did much the same thing as Van Bitz’s “Battery Master”. I fitted to my Herald motorhome (that I sold in 2004) a Battery Mate but I’m pretty sure this is no longer marketed in the UK. (Mastervolt offers a “Battery Mate”, but this is a battery isolator, costs over £200 and is not what you need.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share Posted February 14, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-14 6:31 PM Mike I wasn’t suggesting you traipse down to Taunton for Van Bitz to install their “Battery Master” - just that they charged £130 for supplying and fitting the product. Derek, Sorry my post came out wrong I did not mean that you suggested that I go down to Van Blitz to have the battery master fitted. what you said about the battery master made me realise that what you suggested was an alternative from the £350 one so I looked into it and found that the battery master did the same thing, So I booked in at Spinny. You and Buddy saved me £250 on my first estimate even if I went down to Vanbitz it has saved me £30 and a tank full of fuel thanks very much. I will check with Spinny tomorrow to make sure what they are fitting. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 Mike Whether you will ‘save’ £250 by opting for the £100+VAT instead of the first estimate you were given will (as I said above) depend on what the £350 would have got you.. Installing a Van Bitz “Battery Master” should normally be a straigtforward quick task, so £100+VAT seems a not-unreasonable price. However, a £350 quote suggests that what was being proposed might have been significantly more sophisticated than just connecting a ‘battery balancer’ between the leisure and starter batteries. I notice that, in this 2015 forum discussion https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/charging-vehicle-battery-from-solar-panel/38232/ the late-Allan Evans (aandncaravan) warned "You should not use a 'Battery Master' style device on any German, Italian, Dutch, etc Continental built Motorhome as it will 'short circuit' the functionality already in the Charger/Control device like the EBL.” If Spinney charges you £100+VAT for fitting a Battery Master but that arrangement proves problematical, while the £350 system would have been problem free, you’ll wish you had spent the extra £250. Don’t just fixate on price, ask whoever quoted £350 what they would be doing and ask Spinney to confirm that what they will be doing will be OK for your 2004 Trigano Tribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 If Spinney charges you £100+VAT for fitting a Battery Master but that arrangement proves problematical, while the £350 system would have been problem free, you’ll wish you had spent the extra £250. Don’t just fixate on price, ask whoever quoted £350 what they would be doing and ask Spinney to confirm that what they will be doing will be OK for your 2004 Trigano Tribute ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Derek, I explained to Spinney that I wanted a way that my Habitation battery and my engine battery would charge from Hook up or a solar panel and they said that They would fit a Battery mate and that would do the job. Spinney are a large and well respected Caravan and motorhome company so I think that I can trust what they recommended. Only time will tell and it only cost me just over £96 and that included relocating the solar panel wire that run through the top door jam of the side sliding door( as a previous owner thought that it was a good Idea) to through the roof "inclusive of vat". Thanks to you Derek and some others I hope that I have made a good decision. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Mickydripin - 2020-02-23 7:46 PM ...Spinney are a large and well respected Caravan and motorhome company so I think that I can trust what they recommended... After your “SEA Sharky” experience that began in 2008 and went on for years, I’m filled with admiration that you still have faith in the UK leisure-vehicle trade. (I’m sure Spinney will have done a good job and the cost seems very fair.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickydripin Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 After your “SEA Sharky” experience that began in 2008 and went on for years, I’m filled with admiration that you still have faith in the UK leisure-vehicle trade. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Derek, I don't know if I will ever fully have faith in the UK leisure-vehicle Trade but with the great help that I have had from you and other members of MMM I am slowly getting there. Thanks for all your help you are all stars as your knowledge Knows no bounds. Best regards: Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickVanBitz Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-15 8:54 AM the late-Allan Evans (aandncaravan) warned "You should not use a 'Battery Master' style device on any German, Italian, Dutch, etc Continental built Motorhome as it will 'short circuit' the functionality already in the Charger/Control device like the EBL.” . Sadly this statement is untrue, we have fitted literally 100's Battery Master's to all walks of campervan/motorhome chassis and never have come across any case presented to us that a Battery Master has caused these kind of issues. The installation of Battery Master is a 3 wire fit, carries low amperage (with resettable fuses) and has been connected to many Euro and British built vans (comes as standard when we install our solar panel systems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Allan Evans’s warning was at the beginning of his long posting in the 2015 forum discussion I provided a link to above. Allan’s comment addressed the following enquiry: On my Hymer C542 I have a solar panel (85w) which charges the leisure battery only. It is connected to Electroblock EBL99. I would like to charge the vehicle battery as well from the solar panel. Is it a simple case of replacing the solar control with one which has dual charging connections? Or, would I need to trickle charge the vehicle battery with 'battery mate' or the likes The onboard battery-charger of my first motorhome (a 1996-built Herald) only charged the vehicle’s leisure-battery. I installed an inexpensive “Battery Mate” battery-balancing device (no longer available) that allowed the Herald’s starter-battery to receive a low amperage charge when the battery-charger was operating. My previous Hobby motorhome and my present Rapido have CBE-made habitation electrics that include the capability for the onboard battery-charger to charge the leisure-battery and (at a reduced amperage) the starter-battery too. The Battery Master’s capability to pass charge from the leisure-battery to the starter-battery when a motorhome’s onboard charger is not operating is obviously potentially advantageous (though I don’t need that capability myself) but I’ve sometimes wondered what the effect might be if a Battery Master were fitted to a motorhome that had a system where the onboard chager already automatically charged the starter-battery as well as the leisure-battery. This may be what Allan had in mind when he made the comment and, if you can confirm that installing a Battery Master will not cause problems even if a motorhome’s battery-charger automatically charges both batteries, his caveat can be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageingandrew Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-15 8:54 AM the late-Allan Evans (aandncaravan) warned "You should not use a 'Battery Master' style device on any German, Italian, Dutch, etc Continental built Motorhome as it will 'short circuit' the functionality already in the Charger/Control device like the EBL.” I have a German van fitted with an EBL 29 and I think that the above advice is questionable at best and here’s why: When the engine is running: The D+ signal energises the split charge relay in the Ebl so connecting the leisure and cab batteries together. The cab battery/alternator charges the leisure battery. This would put the same voltage on the battery master terminals which would not trigger it to operate. When the EHU is connected: The charger in the EBL will charge the leisure and cab batteries from the same voltage source so the battery master would not operate. When there is no EHU and the engine is not running: If the cab battery discharges quicker than the leisure battery due to ECU, trackers, alarms etc then the cab battery voltage would fall below the leisure battery voltage and the battery master will operate so providing a trickle charge to the cab battery. If I had solar (I don’t), no EHU and the engine not running The solar panel/controller will charge the leisure battery. In time as the cab battery voltage decreases due to ECU, alarm etc then the cab battery voltage would fall below the leisure battery voltage and the battery master will operate so providing a trickle charge to the cab battery. I cannot see any reason in these scenarios to advise against the use of a battery master. What am I missing? Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 ageingandrew - 2020-02-28 12:54 PM When the EHU is connected: The charger in the EBL will charge the leisure and cab batteries from the same voltage source so the battery master would not operate. I have no practical experience of Schaudt leisure-vehicle equipment, but - when I checked my Hobby motorhome’s charging system (based on CBE-made kit) - the leisure-battery was receiving the 14+ volts I had anticipated, but the voltage being provided to the starter-battery was around 13.8V. I was aware that recharging via the CBE system’s onboard battery-charger would involve only a low amperage supply to the starter-battery as the relevant instruction manual advised as follows CAR BATTERY (B1) RECHARGING When the battery charger is charging, an electronic device allows a recharging (max 2A) of the car battery (B1), the system gives priority to the leisure battery (B2). LEISURE BATTERY (B2) RECHARGING a) by alternator: through the separating relais, when the engine is started. The +KEY engine starting controls electronically a small relais which controls the other relais: parallel, fridge, awning light, etc. b) by 230V net: buffer system through battery charger (see "battery charger"). c) by solar panel: through a solar regulator. but the manual did not mention the ‘car battery’ getting a reduced voltage. I haven’t checked my Rapido’s similar CBE charging system by taking readings at each battery’s terminals, but the control-panel's LED readouts appear to indicate that the starter-batterry may be receiving from the battery-charger a lower voltage than the leisure-battery. I’m beginning to wish I hadn’t quoted Allan Evans’s warning. Presumably Allan had good reason to make it, but, sadly, it is not possible to ask him to justify his comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 ageingandrew - 2020-02-28 1:54 PM When the EHU is connected: The charger in the EBL will charge the leisure and cab batteries from the same voltage source so the battery master would not operate. Andrew I would assume in this situation the battery master/mate/VSR would also make its (parallel) connection between batteries. Not quite short circuit, just redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageingandrew Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 spirou - 2020-02-28 4:54 PM ageingandrew - 2020-02-28 1:54 PM When the EHU is connected: The charger in the EBL will charge the leisure and cab batteries from the same voltage source so the battery master would not operate. Andrew I would assume in this situation the battery master/mate/VSR would also make its (parallel) connection between batteries. Not quite short circuit, just redundant. Spirou. Yes, however, if the starter battery voltage is very low compared to the leisure battery voltage then on EHU the battery master could supplement the EBL charge until the starter battery voltage approaches the leisure battery voltage at which point the battery master (I think) would stop operating. The EBL on EHU normal charging voltages (14.3V for leisure battery, 13.8V for starter battery) differ by less than the 0.7V necessary to activate a battery master (well, the Votronic one anyhow) so the battery master would have no effect Derek, I have no idea how the CBE works but on EHU the Schaudt EBL29 provides a charging voltage of 14.3V and then a float voltage of 13.8V. The manual states that the starter battery receives a charge of up to 6A at a float voltage which I presume means at 13.8V, but I've never measured it. Thinking through how this works makes me think that I should maybe fit a battery master. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Thia all depends on what device specifically we are talking about. However, my understanding is that batteries stay connected as long as either drops below a certain voltage, not above as you describe in your scenario. They connect when either rises above a treshold (assume 13.2V) and disconnect when either goes below a lower treshold (assume 12.8). Specifics may depend on the device of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 While Allan Evans referred to “the EBL” in his caveat, as the motorhome owned by Mike (the original poster) is an Italian-built 2004 Trigano Tribute, it's quite possible that the vehicle does not have Schaudt electrics. I can’t really see why fitting a Battery Master to Continental-European motorhomes should be problematical whether the vehicle’s electrics come from CBE, Nordelettronica, Schaudt, Scheiber or any other maker, but Allan obviously had reservations or he would not have commented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 ageingandrew - 2020-02-28 12:54 PM Derek Uzzell - 2020-02-15 8:54 AM the late-Allan Evans (aandncaravan) warned "You should not use a 'Battery Master' style device on any German, Italian, Dutch, etc Continental built Motorhome as it will 'short circuit' the functionality already in the Charger/Control device like the EBL.” I have a German van fitted with an EBL 29 and I think that the above advice is questionable at best and here’s why: ___________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ When the EHU is connected: The charger in the EBL will charge the leisure and cab batteries from the same voltage source so the battery master would not operate. ____________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________ I cannot see any reason in these scenarios to advise against the use of a battery master. What am I missing? Andrew Yes, when on EHU the charger in the EBL charges both batteries from the same voltage source. However the charging circuit for the starter battery (B1) includes a blocking diode, and a current limiting thermistor. For efficiency the blocking diode will probably be a Schottky diode, but this will still have a forward voltage drop of at least 0.4V. There will also be a voltage drop across the thermistor. The result is that on EHU, the starter bettery (B1), will be at about 13.2V, when the habitation battery (B2) is floating at about 13.8V. The above also applies to CBE systems. I suggest that this is the functionality, that Allan Evans was thinking about. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 For people interested, Allan Evans’s aandncaravanservices website mentions “Battery Master” several times https://tinyurl.com/rfsyxsb In his postings above Mike mentioned that a “Battery Mate” would be fitted by Spinney and the eventual cost of the work was just over £96 including correcting the solar-panel cable installation bodged-up by a previous owner. The going-rate for the “Battery Master” device that VanBitz markets is around £70, so Spinney’s charge seems unusually inexpensive. I’m not aware of a “Battery MATE” battery-balancing device being available in the UK nowadays, but I have seen the Votronic 3065 unit (about £30) being called “Battery Master” in adverts (example here) https://www.roadpro.co.uk/product/02e02-battery-maintainers/votronic-battery-master-c8451/C8451 So a) it’s not known what electrical system Mike’s motorhome has and b) it’s not certain what equipment Spinney fitted to the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry McG Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 If I recall correctly, there was a quite public fall out between VanBitz and The late Allan from AandN regarding this operation of the proprietary VanBitz Battery Master. Again, iirc, my recollection was that Allan confused /the operating principles of the VanBitz Battery Master with other "battery mate" products, and vanbitz refuted the basis of Allan's comments as wrong in fact. I have a 2016 Euro6 fiat chassis 150 hp Globecar PVC with a Shauldt EBL119 Electroblok with 190ah leisure batteries which are supplemented by a 150w solar panel and a victron 75/15 MPPT solar controller. To the best of my knowledge, the EBL119 does not charge the van starter battery. The solar array was installed by vanbitz and they fitted a Battery Master as part of the solar installation - the specific purpose was to allow the starter battery to draw current from the habitation batteries, should the starter battery voltage drop 0.5V below the hab battery voltage therefore one will always be able to start the van. The most important thing. It seems to work perfectly. I believe it is only £70-80 for the part only and it is fitted with 3 cables and I have no qualms about recommending the VanBitz Battery Master https://www.vanbitz.com/product/battery-master/ This is how VanBitz wired the Battery Master to my EBL 119 https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/installing-battery-master.148494/#post-2252234 Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Gerry McG - 2020-02-29 11:04 AM _____________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________ I have a 2016 Euro6 fiat chassis 150 hp Globecar PVC with a Shauldt EBL119 Electroblok with 190ah leisure batteries which are supplemented by a 150w solar panel and a victron 75/15 MPPT solar controller. To the best of my knowledge, the EBL119 does not charge the van starter battery. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gerry Gerry, Page 15 of the Schaudt "Instruction Manual for Electroblock EBL 119 / EBL 119 with OVP" (What is OVP?), is sub titled "Block diagram/wiring diagram". Towards the top LH corner of the diagram in vertical line of print the "Charging relay Starter battery" is clearly labelled. Following towards the right of the diagram are the blocking diode, and the current limiting thermistor. The connection to the starter battery is made via block 2, pin 1. I submit that the EBL 119 does charge the starter battery when on EHU. I fully agree that keeping the starter battery charged is a priority. To this end I have diverted the supply for radio on my vehicle, so as to be drawn from the habitation battery (B2). I do not have a Battery Master, as my vehicle is kept on 24/7 EHU. With CBE electrics I have not noticed any ill effects over nearly 14 years of ownership. The original habitation batteries lasted 8 years plus, and the starter battery was replaced at 11 years as a precaution. It is still functioning as the major part of my domestic standby battery bank. Those MH owners who need to store their vehicles in remote sites, and who do not have solar panels with dual output regulators, may wish to follow your reccomendation. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 OVP is over voltage protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Doh! I should have thought of that. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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