Some stranded Brits have been really stupid

[StuartO]

A relative of a relative of mine made it back from Auckland after a struggle to get a flight; they had to fly back via an unusual route and it cost them £3,500 each for an economy seat. But they are home and relieved to have got back. The airlines are obviously milking the situation to cover some of their overall big losses. They had made contact with the High Commission and were told they were priority for repatriation for health reasons but they found their own flight before being offered anything.  They had gone out there ages ago and their planned flight home got cancelled. 

My sister flew to Fuengarola, Spain in the first week of March because she felt there were no reported cases near there so far and TUI were still flying normally. No FCO advice against Spain at the time. They flew back the following week no problem but very shortly after that Spain kicked off big time. She was very lucky to have just got away with it. 

The problem was that the virus had already spread widely in Spain but it hadn’t surfaced, then suddenly it became much more serious. You might have got caught if you’d gone to Majorca. 

[jumpstart]

There’s also hundreds in Peru. The foreign office has laid on 4flights at a cost of £1 m but not everyone can get to the airport. When people are on a months trip with no phone/ media coverage they can miss the vital signs that there’s a virus around.

[Birdbrain]

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-29 4:19 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 2:23 PM...…………………...

Brian you dont like me expressing my view on the issue brought up by the OP ... Your entitled to that view as I am entitled to mine but try to keep it real ... Bored and arguing for the sake of it , silly boy ... As for claiming our Government has led "millions down the wrong path" just how you know that given we have no idea of the China Virus end game I really dont know , I presume if we have more deaths than other countries similar to us you may have a point and you'll use it as another Tory bashing stick and if we have less you wont be able to but until we know that terrible number you dont have a point ... During our last election the public probably had more information available to them than at any other UK election so just how much greater forethought you think is required I dont know , well maybe I do just enough forethought to not vote Tory I suppose ... Lordy My

On the contrary, I took the time to respond to your view. I don't agree with you, but that is not the same as not "liking" you expressing it!

 

We have a population of somewhere around 66 million. Until mid March, people were not responding to the need to "socially distance" or "self isolate" to the extent necessary to restrict the spread of the virus. It had been incumbent on government to convey the urgent need to do this since around the beginning of February. That message was fluffed. Fluffing their message led many people to think the message did not apply to them. Those are the millions. So, the virus spread more widely, more quickly, than expected. That was the wrong path.

 

I'm not "Tory bashing" I'm criticising the performance of our present government, which merely happens to be Conservative. I don't think I'd be stupid enough to withhold the same criticism of any government of whatever political stripe merely on the basis of my political preferences. Shortcomings are shortcomings, whoever exhibits them.

 

Forethought is what should be informed by election information before voting. Yes, there was much information, but the basis on which we vote is supposed also to take account of the qualities of the candidates. It is the elected MPs who go on to for government and opposition. Good government requires good opposition, at present, IMO, we lack both.

 

There have been good Conservative governments, and bad. Ditto labour. I'm not blinded to the strengths and weaknesses of either by political affiliation verging on religious fervour - though far to many are! So I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be exactly what leads you to repeatedly rush in to defend the indefensible.

 

Eh ... Brian please show the proof Government fluffed its lines and therefore allowed the spread of China Virus

As for Tory bashing you have previous form so when one sees you Tory bashing again the initial reaction is your doing as you always do ... Tory bash

Your opinion which you talk of regarding Government and opposition is 1 out of the 66 million you previously mention so rather irrelevant , the fact is as you acknowledge the info on all parties and policies was there like never before in this election , what more you want Christ only knows

As for being blinded by party loyalties I have previously stated on here Boris is not my man so why would I blindly defend him and I have previously voted for 2 other parties other than Tories so your point if aimed at me is pointless ...

Seems a shame to me your arguing for arguments sake ... Or your just bored ... Regards

[Birdbrain]

StuartO - 2020-03-29 5:28 PMThese criticisms of our Government are made with benefit of hindsight and don’t seem to me to be valid anyway. Compared to other countries (eg America) we’re doing at least fairly well. Germany has better death rate but that’s explained by the larger denominator they are using because they are doing far more tests. I would like to have seen much earlier FCO advice against non-essential travel everywhere abroad, which would have reduced the number of Brits taking holidays they’d paid and couldn’t claim a refund for but overall, given the nature of our bureaucracy, the need to manage the pace of things affecting industries and the need to get the public on side with the necessary behavioural changes, they’re not doing badly. The Royals, except for Harry and Meghan of course, are doing well too. 

BoJo is handling the communications well and exercising remarkable self discipline in not biting back when asked aggressive questions by nasty journalists. He’s got good sound it’s messages which he is plugging very well. I think he’s got the majority of the public on side and stands a fair chance of keeping them there. 

I wouldn’t have chosen BoJo to lead the Conservatives but I’m happy the way things are going. I think Jeremy Hunt should shut up.  And I don’t really understand where our Brian is coming from at all. 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

[Birdbrain]

Maybe stuff like this explains some of the spread of China Virus here in the UK ... https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-police-break-up-massive-karaoke-party-during-covid-19-lockdown-measures-11965352

[Bulletguy]

StuartO - 2020-03-29 1:51 PM

 

Having said all that, I think our present PM and Government are rising to the challenge. And although they will be bound to be seen by historians as having made mistakes, they are doing well. I wish they weren't being sniped at quite so much by self-appointed "expert" critics and some blinkered, trouble-making journalists. Our Government is certainly facing up to the need for radical decisions and they are making them.

Can you explain why people like Andrew Raynor, MD of MEC Medical whose company supplies parts essential to the manufacture of ventilators, and Steven Mifsud whose company had already sourced and able to supply 5,000 ventilators and 50 million test kits, was also ignored by government despite the efforts of his Conservative MP? Five days passed with absolutely nothing so that stock went to other customers, i assume out of UK as it certainly hadn't been taken up by our government.

 

Both professionals with the appropriate experience whose companies are involved with manufacture and supply of ventilators.

 

Instead government have chosen to employ the manufacturing services of a digger and vacuum cleaner company to design, tool up and build a ventilator from scratch, neither of whom have any experience in the medical equipment field. Radical for sure but the wisdom of it does seem a totally unnecessary path to go down as shown by the previous quoted examples.

 

In short, we never had time to play around designing and tooling up to manufacture something which has already been there, neither can we afford to "make mistakes" so the criticism is not only understandable but fully justified imo.

 

Another "mistake" was excusing UK's initial participation in the EU ventilator procurement scheme because it 'did not see the emails inviting it to take part' and because 'we are no longer a member of the EU' when we are still de facto whilst in transition. They've since done a u-turn on that now though and accepted the EU offer but yet again that's time wasted we cannot afford.

[Bulletguy]

jumpstart - 2020-03-29 5:39 PM

 

Not really hindsight as many on here were saying two weeks ago why were they letting people in without isolation.

Ideally all should be tested but we don't have the ability for that yet. All should certainly self-isolate though how many will is quite another matter.

[Bulletguy]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

 

Note the use of the word "average" ... Your claiming the worlds youngest victim is 16 I presume , that I dont believe as we dont know the ages of those in Africa or more importantly China unless you have insider knowledge

[Bulletguy]

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 8:41 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

 

Note the use of the word "average"

As i said i can find no record on the internet showing average age deaths by country from coronavirus.

 

Your claiming the worlds youngest victim is 16 I presume ,that I dont believe

No. It was very clear what i wrote as my post shows which you then completely misquoted in your post. The important point was she was very young with no underlying health conditions.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/french-girl-europes-youngest-coronavirus-victim-a4399526.html

 

A 27 year British man with no underlying health issues also died less than a week after developing symptoms.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2020-03-27/27-year-old-dad-with-coronavirus-symptoms-died-ten-days-after-birth-of-son/

 

The link i posted explains why Germany has fared better than most due to its rigorous testing and tracing, exactly the same way as South Korea did. It tested more people so was able to identify those even with mild symptoms.

[jumpstart]

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

r

 

Apparently Germany has not been listing all Coronavirus deaths as such when they have actually died from say heart failure or other causes.

[Bulletguy]

jumpstart - 2020-03-29 9:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

r

 

Apparently Germany has not been listing all Coronavirus deaths as such when they have actually died from say heart failure or other causes.

I don't quite follow what you're saying? That Germany hasn't recorded deaths from coronavirus when the patient has died from heart failure? Assuming their law is the same or similar to ours, that would be correct. Like us they are not allowed by law to incorrectly state the cause of death on the certificate. That was one of Dr Shipmans big mistakes, remember!

 

Backing up here what i posted before re, Germany, more in this article from the Telegraph which makes an interesting read.

 

Other differences in the German health system may also be significant. The country has far more intensive care (ICU) beds than anywhere else in Europe.

 

Intensive care beds can mean the difference between life and death for those who become seriously ill with the virus, and dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them.

 

Germany has 28,000 ICU beds. By contrast, the UK has just 4,000. And 25,000 of Germany’s already have the ventilators seriously ill patients need.

 

At the outbreak of the crisis, Germany had 29.2 intensive care beds per 100,000 people. Italy had 12.5. The UK had just 6.6.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/why-does-germany-have-low-coronavirus-death-rate/

[Birdbrain]

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 9:51 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-03-29 9:34 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-03-29 8:35 PM

 

Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:45 PM

 

Regarding Germany I believe the average age of those with China Virus is around 45 ... UK is around 65 , doesnt take a genius to work out a 45 year old can fight off the virus better than a 65 year old ... Germany expects the death rate to rapidly increase ... Isnt it disgraceful because of the haters one feels the need to post death figures country by country

Whilst the elderly are generally more susceptible than younger people to any illnesses, Coronavirus has hit all ages, the youngest being a 16 year old French girl with no underlying health conditions. I can find no record of a countries average age death rate from Covid-19 but this article explains why Germany has fared better than most.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-why-germany-has-such-a-low-covid-19-death-rate-11964051

r

 

Apparently Germany has not been listing all Coronavirus deaths as such when they have actually died from say heart failure or other causes.

I don't quite follow what you're saying? That Germany hasn't recorded deaths from coronavirus when the patient has died from heart failure? Assuming their law is the same or similar to ours, that would be correct. Like us they are not allowed by law to incorrectly state the cause of death on the certificate. That was one of Dr Shipmans big mistakes, remember!

 

Backing up here what i posted before re, Germany, more in this article from the Telegraph which makes an interesting read.

 

Other differences in the German health system may also be significant. The country has far more intensive care (ICU) beds than anywhere else in Europe.

 

Intensive care beds can mean the difference between life and death for those who become seriously ill with the virus, and dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them.

 

Germany has 28,000 ICU beds. By contrast, the UK has just 4,000. And 25,000 of Germany’s already have the ventilators seriously ill patients need.

 

At the outbreak of the crisis, Germany had 29.2 intensive care beds per 100,000 people. Italy had 12.5. The UK had just 6.6.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/why-does-germany-have-low-coronavirus-death-rate/

 

Given London is without doubt our UK hotbed for the Chins Virus maybe we can assume that Germans aren't gathering in parks and cramming themselves on the tube like our daft lot do and they are taking social distancing very seriously ... The head af the agency responsible for disease control in Germany has said the China Virus figures are artificially low in Germany presently and will grow as other countries have and overstretch the health system ... Lets hope the figures dont grow there or anywhere

[jumpstart]

Back to the subject, EasyJet have grounded their fleet , having carried out 650 repatriation flights bringing back 45000 passengers.

[StuartO]

jumpstart - 2020-03-30 9:21 AMBack to the subject, EasyJet have grounded their fleet , having carried out 650 repatriation flights bringing back 45000 passengers.

I had the impression that these Easyjet flights were completon of their holiday industry obligations (i.e. to bring people back whom they had previously taken out) rather than anything much more.  I might be wrong.  Today Easyjet have announce that their whole fleet is now grounded.

I like the announcement today that Virgin and Easyjet cabin crew will be helping to staff the newly built Nightingale Hospital.  They will have useful skills, including the capacity to work as part of a team.

[jumpstart]

StuartO - 2020-03-30 9:38 AM

 

jumpstart - 2020-03-30 9:21 AMBack to the subject, EasyJet have grounded their fleet , having carried out 650 repatriation flights bringing back 45000 passengers.

I had the impression that these Easyjet flights were completon of their holiday industry obligations (i.e. to bring people back whom they had previously taken out) rather than anything much more.  I might be wrong.  Today Easyjet have announce that their whole fleet is now grounded.

 

I agree ,was slightly surprised at the numbers, this was reported by EasyJet but as they are not renown for flight helpfulness could well be an exaggeration.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-03-29 5:28 PM...............….I think Jeremy Hunt should shut up.  And I don’t really understand where our Brian is coming from at all.

I think Jeremy Hunt speaks more sense now, as Chair of the Health and Social Care Select Committee, than he did when he was Minister of Health. I don't understand why he should be expected to shut up. Why is that?

 

I hoped I had explained where I was "coming from". Quite simply it is that our government has been slow to respond to the threat of the virus, which was already being transmitted domestically in the UK during January, and has, until the past two weeks or so, caused considerable confusion (as evidenced by the many reactions from those in the NHS and elsewhere over the intervening period) by giving out unclear, and at times conflicting, messages.

 

I'm not reassured that we are doing much the same as other European countries, when those countries have, at least where Italy and Spain, and to a lesser extent France, are concerned, handled the situation in their countries disastrously and reacting far to late to its domestic spread. I would have expected the UK to be better, certainly than Italy and Spain, especially when the fact that the UK is estimated to be two weeks behind both, so that their experiences should have informed our response.

 

It seems to me that we somewhat complacently boast of our world-leading health services, etc. etc., but are reluctant to face the truth when it fails to deliver what is needed. From all I have seen and heard, the underlying cause of that shortcoming has been government obfuscation and inaction.

 

Of course reserving the criticism until now is with the benefit of hindsight, because it is then factually based. I suspect that had I voiced my growing earlier sense of unease, I should have been labelled disloyal, or a doomster, or some such other. Hey, ho. Human nature! :-D

[Birdbrain]

Lets hope this is correct ... https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-early-signs-outbreak-slowing-in-uk-says-imperial-college-professor-11965624 ... One can only assume the usual experts on here will know better

[mtravel]

...at least where Italy and Spain, and to a lesser extent France, are concerned, handled the situation in their countries disastrously and reacting far to late to its domestic spread...

 

I am astonished.

I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them".

Where and when ? Bulls**t.

 

Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources.

You write: disastrous and late.

 

Italy declared a state of emergency as soon as the WHO raised the state of attention (31 January).

The first restrictive measures (stop at the championships, closing of schools, theaters, cinemas, etc. date back to the very early February.

As well as the closing of the bars after 6pm. The definitive closing dates back to the end of February.

Tighter measures were decided when you still went to the rugby games.

 

I would like to say that a big problem that Northern Italy has faced is the proximity of many large cities.

Every 50km there is a regional capital with more than 100,000 (if not 200/300,000) inhabitants with a lot of commuters between them.

From Turin to Venice via Milan, Bergamo, Brescia, Verona, etc.

Or Milan, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia, Modena, Bologna, etc.

Look at a map.

 

Public Health System: of course we were structured for normality not for a war.

A huge, huge effort has seen more than double the emergency posts (from 5400 to 9000 on the national territory). In less than a month!

In Lombardy alone they increased by 135%.

 

Thanks for the attention and regards,

 

Max

[Bulletguy]

mtravel - 2020-03-30 2:18 PM

 

I am astonished.

I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them".

Where and when ? Bulls**t.

 

Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources.

You write: disastrous and late.

Max.....it would help if you included the source of the above quote you claim i made! Or are you simply quoting a line written in a media link i posted?

 

There is a marked difference and it's very misleading to state an fm quoted (as in wrote an opinion in a post), when infact it's probably a line out of a media link so i'd appreciate clarification on that please so that i can see the article in it's full context.

[mtravel]

Bulletguy - 2020-03-30 3:39 PM

 

mtravel - 2020-03-30 2:18 PM

 

I am astonished.

I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them".

Where and when ? Bulls**t.

 

Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources.

You write: disastrous and late.

Max.....it would help if you included the source of the above quote you claim i made! Or are you simply quoting a line written in a media link i posted?

 

There is a marked difference and it's very misleading to state an fm quoted (as in wrote an opinion in a post), when infact it's probably a line out of a media link so i'd appreciate clarification on that please so that i can see the article in it's full context.

 

If you see I have reported within " " what you in turn have reported from a newspaper.

Unfounded and completely misleading news compared to what happens here.

 

Max

[jumpstart]

https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/12/coronavirus-italy-doctors-forced-to-prioritise-icu-care-for-patients-with-best-chance-of-s

 

This news item reports on Dr. choosing to prioritise.

There are others.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2020-03-30 1:07 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-03-29 5:28 PM...............….I think Jeremy Hunt should shut up.  And I don’t really understand where our Brian is coming from at all.

I think Jeremy Hunt speaks more sense now, as Chair of the Health and Social Care Select Committee, than he did when he was Minister of Health. I don't understand why he should be expected to shut up. Why is that?

His question to Johnson at PMQ not only made sense, it was extremely clear and only required a clear answer. He didn't get one.

 

I hoped I had explained where I was "coming from". Quite simply it is that our government has been slow to respond to the threat of the virus, which was already being transmitted domestically in the UK during January, and has, until the past two weeks or so, caused considerable confusion (as evidenced by the many reactions from those in the NHS and elsewhere over the intervening period) by giving out unclear, and at times conflicting, messages.

 

I'm not reassured that we are doing much the same as other European countries, when those countries have, at least where Italy and Spain, and to a lesser extent France, are concerned, handled the situation in their countries disastrously and reacting far to late to its domestic spread. I would have expected the UK to be better, certainly than Italy and Spain, especially when the fact that the UK is estimated to be two weeks behind both, so that their experiences should have informed our response.

I think Germany and South Korea set a benchmark from early and widespread testing and tracing, even those showing only minor symptoms. Given that deaths in Italy and Spain were spiralling, why hadn't they followed the examples of those two countries?

 

 

It seems to me that we somewhat complacently boast of our world-leading health services, etc. etc., but are reluctant to face the truth when it fails to deliver what is needed. From all I have seen and heard, the underlying cause of that shortcoming has been government obfuscation and inaction.

I feel the same and am bewildered by those that cannot see that. Maybe they don't want to? :-S

 

Blind loyalty? :-|

 

Of course reserving the criticism until now is with the benefit of hindsight, because it is then factually based. I suspect that had I voiced my growing earlier sense of unease, I should have been labelled disloyal, or a doomster, or some such other. Hey, ho. Human nature! :-D

Sadly it seems it's the old Brexity stuff which appears to still be paramount.....and you're a 'RemOAner' and 'whiner' because you didn't "win". :-|

[Bulletguy]

mtravel - 2020-03-30 3:58 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-03-30 3:39 PM

 

mtravel - 2020-03-30 2:18 PM

 

I am astonished.

I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them".

Where and when ? Bulls**t.

 

Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources.

You write: disastrous and late.

Max.....it would help if you included the source of the above quote you claim i made! Or are you simply quoting a line written in a media link i posted?

 

There is a marked difference and it's very misleading to state an fm quoted (as in wrote an opinion in a post), when infact it's probably a line out of a media link so i'd appreciate clarification on that please so that i can see the article in it's full context.

 

If you see I have reported within " " what you in turn have reported from a newspaper.

Unfounded and completely misleading news compared to what happens here.

 

Max

So what you're actually complaining about is a media link i posted and not what I quoted. That misleads people into believing i wrote what you put in quotation marks which i knew immediately i'd never written any such remark.

 

Where is the media link so i can look at the article in it's full context?

 

edited to add i see J/start has posted a link.

[Brian Kirby]

mtravel - 2020-03-30 2:18 PM

 

...at least where Italy and Spain, and to a lesser extent France, are concerned, handled the situation in their countries disastrously and reacting far to late to its domestic spread...

 

I am astonished.

I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them".

Where and when ? Bulls**t.

 

Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources.

You write: disastrous and late.

 

Italy declared a state of emergency as soon as the WHO raised the state of attention (31 January).

The first restrictive measures (stop at the championships, closing of schools, theaters, cinemas, etc. date back to the very early February.

As well as the closing of the bars after 6pm. The definitive closing dates back to the end of February.

Tighter measures were decided when you still went to the rugby games.

 

I would like to say that a big problem that Northern Italy has faced is the proximity of many large cities.

Every 50km there is a regional capital with more than 100,000 (if not 200/300,000) inhabitants with a lot of commuters between them.

From Turin to Venice via Milan, Bergamo, Brescia, Verona, etc.

Or Milan, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia, Modena, Bologna, etc.

Look at a map.

 

Public Health System: of course we were structured for normality not for a war.

A huge, huge effort has seen more than double the emergency posts (from 5400 to 9000 on the national territory). In less than a month!

In Lombardy alone they increased by 135%.

 

Thanks for the attention and regards,

 

Max

 

Massimo, I'm not seeking to belittle the efforts and sacrifices made by Italians since the first reported outbreak in Codogno, at the end of January. Since then, I have watched the spread of the virus in Italy with growing horror. Yes, I do have a passing familiarity with the northern region, having visited numerous times over the years. Notwithstanding, it remains my opinion that the Italian Government was slow to act and that, as a consequence, the virus spread further, and faster, than should otherwise have been the case. It is also clear that various local politicians resisted the control measures, so impeding the controls.

 

This Wikipedia link: https://tinyurl.com/ue3kpjf charts the spread, and the actions of the various authorities in seeking to arrest it. The problem, as I suspect you will know far better than I can, is that people escaped the affected areas before each was finally locked down, and in so doing spread the virus elsewhere. It only spreads from person to person, and consistent with that, it has now travelled to the south around Rome and Naples.

 

According to the Wiki piece, the nationwide lockdown was not implemented until 9 March, and has since been tightened twice to try to finally get on top of the spread. The UK government has followed a similar strategy, of initial "light" intervention, followed by progressively more stringent restrictions as people have "ducked under" each closure, especially following schools closures, to spread the disease elsewhere. Had either administration reacted to the evidence from the far east of the extreme contagion of this virus, and its consequent rapid spread, and implemented stringent controls as soon as the first few cases were identified, both our countries would now be in better positions than they are.

 

I accept that none of our public health systems were staffed and equipped for a pandemic. However, knowing that, and (we have to assume) also knowing vicariously how this virus behaves once present in a population, merely serves to highlight the extreme urgency of governments making early, decisive, interventions as soon as the virus is detected. I know others disagree on this, but it remains my opinion that in both our cases (and others), our governments did not bite the bullet at the appropriate time and consequently we are now significantly worse off than we might otherwise have been. Stay well.