Brian Kirby Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:41 PM...……………………. 1 Eh ... Brian please show the proof Government fluffed its lines and therefore allowed the spread of China Virus 2 As for Tory bashing you have previous form so when one sees you Tory bashing again the initial reaction is your doing as you always do ... Tory bash 3 Your opinion which you talk of regarding Government and opposition is 1 out of the 66 million you previously mention so rather irrelevant , the fact is as you acknowledge the info on all parties and policies was there like never before in this election , what more you want Christ only knows 4 As for being blinded by party loyalties I have previously stated on here Boris is not my man so why would I blindly defend him and I have previously voted for 2 other parties other than Tories so your point if aimed at me is pointless ... 5 Seems a shame to me your arguing for arguments sake ... Or your just bored ... Regards 1 Seriously? Are you really claiming that you haven't seen, heard, or read, people widely complaining that they don't understand what is expected of them to the extent that you need me to provide proof? You don't live at the bottom of a rabbit hole do you? :-D 2 My turn to ask for proof of my "Tory bashing". Come on, chop, chop! :-D 3 Of course opinions are individual. What else could thy be? What do I want? I want voters to evaluate the candidates the parties put forward before voting blindly for them on the basis of their party allegiance. 4 I don't know: why do you do that? Bored yes, but I am responding to your points, most of which I disagree with. That is discussion. OTOH you seem only to want only agreement, not dissent. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-30 1:07 PMStuartO - 2020-03-29 5:28 PM...............….I think Jeremy Hunt should shut up. And I don’t really understand where our Brian is coming from at all.I think Jeremy Hunt speaks more sense now, as Chair of the Health and Social Care Select Committee, than he did when he was Minister of Health. I don't understand why he should be expected to shut up. Why is that? He's unlikely to have the full inside story and he is saying things which potentially undermine the Government. The Government is clearly timing its announcements to avoid causing unnecessary alarm or confusion and we have far too many self-appointed experts (and self-opinionated people) expressing critical (and often merely speculative, misinformed) opinions. I think the Government could do with support rather than unnecessary challenges, especially any attempts to pour scorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-30 6:17 PM Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 7:41 PM...……………………. 1 Eh ... Brian please show the proof Government fluffed its lines and therefore allowed the spread of China Virus 2 As for Tory bashing you have previous form so when one sees you Tory bashing again the initial reaction is your doing as you always do ... Tory bash 3 Your opinion which you talk of regarding Government and opposition is 1 out of the 66 million you previously mention so rather irrelevant , the fact is as you acknowledge the info on all parties and policies was there like never before in this election , what more you want Christ only knows 4 As for being blinded by party loyalties I have previously stated on here Boris is not my man so why would I blindly defend him and I have previously voted for 2 other parties other than Tories so your point if aimed at me is pointless ... 5 Seems a shame to me your arguing for arguments sake ... Or your just bored ... Regards 1 Seriously? Are you really claiming that you haven't seen, heard, or read, people widely complaining that they don't understand what is expected of them to the extent that you need me to provide proof? You don't live at the bottom of a rabbit hole do you? :-D 2 My turn to ask for proof of my "Tory bashing". Come on, chop, chop! :-D 3 Of course opinions are individual. What else could thy be? What do I want? I want voters to evaluate the candidates the parties put forward before voting blindly for them on the basis of their party allegiance. 4 I don't know: why do you do that? Bored yes, but I am responding to your points, most of which I disagree with. That is discussion. OTOH you seem only to want only agreement, not dissent. Why? 1 ... Are you seriously claiming we , the public dont know what is expected of us and our behaviour through this ??? 2 ... Princess I forget the amount of times I have asked you and others to prove the vile things you spew about me and up to press none of you have ever shown anything to back up any of the names or insults , why on earth should I do differently ??? 3 ... You want folk not to vote blindly on the "basis of their party allegiance" ??? You mean like thousand and thousands and thousands of lifelong Labour voters just did when voting Tory last election ... Wake up princess 4 ... Guff 5 ... I dont want agreement sweet cheeks , that I dont think I will really find off anyone on here and thats why the vast majority on here would prefer I wasn't here , so those left could more or less agree on more or less every issue Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-03-30 6:51 PM.......................... 1 ... Are you seriously claiming we , the public dont know what is expected of us and our behaviour through this ??? 2 ... Princess I forget the amount of times I have asked you and others to prove the vile things you spew about me and up to press none of you have ever shown anything to back up any of the names or insults , why on earth should I do differently ??? 3 ... You want folk not to vote blindly on the "basis of their party allegiance" ??? You mean like thousand and thousands and thousands of lifelong Labour voters just did when voting Tory last election ... Wake up princess 4 ... Guff 5 ... I dont want agreement sweet cheeks , that I dont think I will really find off anyone on here and thats why the vast majority on here would prefer I wasn't here , so those left could more or less agree on more or less every issue Regards 1 No, I am merely repeating what I have seen, heard and read many of the public saying for themselves. 2 So, that is your usual ploy when cornered. You can't prove that. 3 No, they were the minority who were doing exactly as I would wish. 4 But why do you do that? 5 Ah, so your intention is to 'Incite fear about a protected category' and make 'Repeated and/or non-consensual slurs, epithets, racist and sexist tropes, or other content that degrades someone'? There you go. Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 If you two have descended into petty bikering and exchanging insults it seems unlikely that there will be any further useful discussion in this thread. Neither of you are fools, why can neither of you exchange ideas respectfully and constructively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-30 6:00 PM mtravel - 2020-03-30 2:18 PM ...at least where Italy and Spain, and to a lesser extent France, are concerned, handled the situation in their countries disastrously and reacting far to late to its domestic spread... I am astonished. I quote you but indirectly I also answer to Bulletguy who quotes: "dire reports from northern Italy have told of doctors being forced to choose which patients get them". Where and when ? Bulls**t. Before making judgments on Italy, check your sources. You write: disastrous and late. Italy declared a state of emergency as soon as the WHO raised the state of attention (31 January). The first restrictive measures (stop at the championships, closing of schools, theaters, cinemas, etc. date back to the very early February. As well as the closing of the bars after 6pm. The definitive closing dates back to the end of February. Tighter measures were decided when you still went to the rugby games. I would like to say that a big problem that Northern Italy has faced is the proximity of many large cities. Every 50km there is a regional capital with more than 100,000 (if not 200/300,000) inhabitants with a lot of commuters between them. From Turin to Venice via Milan, Bergamo, Brescia, Verona, etc. Or Milan, Piacenza, Reggio Emilia, Modena, Bologna, etc. Look at a map. Public Health System: of course we were structured for normality not for a war. A huge, huge effort has seen more than double the emergency posts (from 5400 to 9000 on the national territory). In less than a month! In Lombardy alone they increased by 135%. Thanks for the attention and regards, Max Massimo, I'm not seeking to belittle the efforts and sacrifices made by Italians since the first reported outbreak in Codogno, at the end of January. Since then, I have watched the spread of the virus in Italy with growing horror. Yes, I do have a passing familiarity with the northern region, having visited numerous times over the years. Notwithstanding, it remains my opinion that the Italian Government was slow to act and that, as a consequence, the virus spread further, and faster, than should otherwise have been the case. It is also clear that various local politicians resisted the control measures, so impeding the controls. This Wikipedia link: https://tinyurl.com/ue3kpjf charts the spread, and the actions of the various authorities in seeking to arrest it. The problem, as I suspect you will know far better than I can, is that people escaped the affected areas before each was finally locked down, and in so doing spread the virus elsewhere. It only spreads from person to person, and consistent with that, it has now travelled to the south around Rome and Naples. According to the Wiki piece, the nationwide lockdown was not implemented until 9 March, and has since been tightened twice to try to finally get on top of the spread. The UK government has followed a similar strategy, of initial "light" intervention, followed by progressively more stringent restrictions as people have "ducked under" each closure, especially following schools closures, to spread the disease elsewhere. Had either administration reacted to the evidence from the far east of the extreme contagion of this virus, and its consequent rapid spread, and implemented stringent controls as soon as the first few cases were identified, both our countries would now be in better positions than they are. I accept that none of our public health systems were staffed and equipped for a pandemic. However, knowing that, and (we have to assume) also knowing vicariously how this virus behaves once present in a population, merely serves to highlight the extreme urgency of governments making early, decisive, interventions as soon as the virus is detected. I know others disagree on this, but it remains my opinion that in both our cases (and others), our governments did not bite the bullet at the appropriate time and consequently we are now significantly worse off than we might otherwise have been. Stay well. Brian, first of all I would like to tell you that I respect you for your posts, always calm and documented. And thank you for the attention you pay to my nation. Sory for late reply but the wiki link you posted became reachable just few minutes ago. Regarding the measures taken by our government, which are far from delayed (source the Prime Minister's statement to parliament): https://www.ansa.it/documents/1585164428747_ComunicazioneCAMERA.pdf I remember that the WHO declared an international public health emergency only on January 30th. January 22: Taken the first precautionary measures, including the establishment of a task force at the Ministry of Health. January 25: Ordinance of the Minister of Health on prophylactic measures January 27: Landing ban on flights from China. From China only and THIS WAS A MISTAKE, we didn't think about people coming on connected flights (e.g. Bejing-Frankfurt-Milan). Even to those who first stop abroad for a while before to come to Italy (e.g. positive Webasto employee who came from Germany some day after he returned from China). January 30: First episode in Rome (Chinese husband and wife). January 31: A national state of emergency was proclaimed for the precautionary duration of six months, entrusting the Civil Protection with the task to deal with the emergency. February 3: First Civil Protection Ordinance. Many others followed without interruption with progressive limitations. February 21: The first case of a positive Italian patient was discovered in Codogno (Lombardy). On the same day the infected ones exploded shortly after at 15. Almost simultaneously another outbreak was discovered in Vo’ Euganeo (Veneto). February 22: Urgent cabinet meeting of ministers. February 23 (NOT the 27th): Strictly isolated the first two so-called red zones in the contagion areas. Checkpoints have been established. February 25: blocking of various activities in all the municipalities of the Emilia-Romagna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Lombardy, Veneto, Liguria and Piedmont regions (sporting events, school activities, health prevention measures at prisons, cultural activities and tourism). The lockdown of the northern regions followed in a short time, which then extended to the whole nation. I do not hide the fact that there have been episodes of migration from the north to the south but these have been less important numbers than we might think given the small number of cases that we currently see in the center and south. This was perhaps the only time I contested anything in government. I would stop here because it makes no sense to talk about Italy in an English forum. I just wish my country wasn't to be considered the one that brought the virus to Europe. Sincerely, Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-03-31 1:15 PM Birdbrain - 2020-03-30 6:51 PM.......................... 1 ... Are you seriously claiming we , the public dont know what is expected of us and our behaviour through this ??? 2 ... Princess I forget the amount of times I have asked you and others to prove the vile things you spew about me and up to press none of you have ever shown anything to back up any of the names or insults , why on earth should I do differently ??? 3 ... You want folk not to vote blindly on the "basis of their party allegiance" ??? You mean like thousand and thousands and thousands of lifelong Labour voters just did when voting Tory last election ... Wake up princess 4 ... Guff 5 ... I dont want agreement sweet cheeks , that I dont think I will really find off anyone on here and thats why the vast majority on here would prefer I wasn't here , so those left could more or less agree on more or less every issue Regards 1 No, I am merely repeating what I have seen, heard and read many of the public saying for themselves. 2 So, that is your usual ploy when cornered. You can't prove that. 3 No, they were the minority who were doing exactly as I would wish. 4 But why do you do that? 5 Ah, so your intention is to 'Incite fear about a protected category' and make 'Repeated and/or non-consensual slurs, epithets, racist and sexist tropes, or other content that degrades someone'? There you go. Interesting! 1 ... What you repeat regarding what some of the public say doesnt necessarily make it the truth does it or because its you repeating it does it ??? 2 ... Brian I dont recall ever being "cornered" on here by anyone ... I merely point out why should I prove anything for you or others when nobody has ever done that when I ask , including you ??? 3 ... During the last election I seem to remember you saying something like voting for anyone other than a Tory was your plan in your area and that just happened to be a Liberal if I recall correctly , now thats not very open minded is it or is that also what you wish folk to do just vote for anyone other than a Tory ??? 4 ... 5 ... What on earth !!! ... You resort to normal with the "slurs" aimed at me , all of which are as you know totally unfounded but I suspect the more you say them the more attention they might get from the moderators ... Free speech just about lives on Chatterbox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-03-29 9:40 AM How much do smokers cost the tax payer each year through NHS treatment despite all the warnings, Actually, smoking is probably good for the taxpayer when you factor in the amount smokers pay in tax, and the fact they die earlier before they claim so much pension. Sure they might go into hospital for smoking related illnesses, but non smokers go in for non smoking related diseases, and need taxpayer funded care for longer, as well as taxpayer funded pensions, because they live longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 With the wisdom of hindsight it was silly for some of these people to go abroad - but we have to remember Covid-19 wasn't being taken so seriously at the time - BoJo and the other clowns who are now lecturing us on how to avoid it have caught it themselves so it shows they weren't treating it seriously enough either - Donald Trump even called it a 'Democrat Hoax' - and told s to 'buy the dip' - just before the market crashed. I get that its expensive to charter aircraft - but if we can do it for Airmiles Andy, and all the other Royal hangers on, and all the people who have to clean up after them, can't we do it for those who really need it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 mtravel - 2020-03-31 3:06 PM.....................….I just wish my country wasn't to be considered the one that brought the virus to Europe. Sincerely, Max I don't think the above is at all the case, Massimo. The virus was carried into Italy from China via who knows where. It would be invidious to attribute blame to the victims of a cruel stroke of fate. I cannot imagine the distress, anguish and fear that must be afflicting Italy at present, and wish you all well - although I fear it will be a long road back to normality. I hope to be back again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 John52 - 2020-03-31 4:01 PM With the wisdom of hindsight it was silly for some of these people to go abroad - but we have to remember Covid-19 wasn't being taken so seriously at the time - BoJo and the other clowns who are now lecturing us on how to avoid it have caught it themselves so it shows they weren't treating it seriously enough either - Donald Trump even called it a 'Democrat Hoax' I think it's finally dawned on him now that it won't "blow over by Easter" and he has also now ceased referring to it as the 'Chinese virus', not helpful at all toward the many Asian American citizens who faced a wave of discrimination, harassment and violence. A few of his sycophants still continue with it though. Very nasty. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/trump-is-the-chinese-governments-most-useful-idiot/608638/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-03-31 4:18 PM John52 - 2020-03-31 4:01 PM With the wisdom of hindsight it was silly for some of these people to go abroad - but we have to remember Covid-19 wasn't being taken so seriously at the time - BoJo and the other clowns who are now lecturing us on how to avoid it have caught it themselves so it shows they weren't treating it seriously enough either - Donald Trump even called it a 'Democrat Hoax' I think it's finally dawned on him now that it won't "blow over by Easter" and he has also now ceased referring to it as the 'Chinese virus', not helpful at all toward the many Asian American citizens who faced a wave of discrimination, harassment and violence. A few of his sycophants still continue with it though. Very nasty. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/trump-is-the-chinese-governments-most-useful-idiot/608638/ One wonders how the Spanish have managed with the "discrimination , harassment and violence" Spanish flu has brought or the problems Ebola and Norovirus bring ??? ... Talking of "discrimination" "Pansy Boy" used by you on numerous occasions against me falls into that bracket wouldnt you say ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-03-31 4:18 PM John52 - 2020-03-31 4:01 PM With the wisdom of hindsight it was silly for some of these people to go abroad - but we have to remember Covid-19 wasn't being taken so seriously at the time - BoJo and the other clowns who are now lecturing us on how to avoid it have caught it themselves so it shows they weren't treating it seriously enough either - Donald Trump even called it a 'Democrat Hoax' I think it's finally dawned on him now that it won't "blow over by Easter" and he has also now ceased referring to it as the 'Chinese virus', not helpful at all toward the many Asian American citizens who faced a wave of discrimination, harassment and violence. A few of his sycophants still continue with it though. Very nasty. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/trump-is-the-chinese-governments-most-useful-idiot/608638/ I suppose the big difference with Covid 19 is all the information is made public immediately, Trump doesn't have inside information that he can make use of to look intelligent. When he only has the same information as the rest of us, his interpretation of it shows him up to be of below average intelligence - because most people could see Covid19 was more serious. The stock markets crashed even though Trump was telling them to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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