Derek Uzzell Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Enquiry from Brent Thomas (Brent141) Hi, This is my first post having owned a 1999 2.8 Fiat Ducato based Swift MH for a year. I had the MH MOT'd and serviced in January just prior to leaving her parked up for 4 weeks while we were away. When home I tried to start her but the engine wouldn't turn. The garage diagnosed a seized engine and I found a workshop to strip and repair it. When dismantled, they reported water ingress - suggesting it had been flooded (due to the amount of water) and I know this was not the case. Anyway, £5k later the MH is home but still bugs me how water got into the engine. As I can't drive her around, I've been just running the engine for 30 minutes each week. Today, as we've had a spot of rain, I noticed a small build up of water by the oil filler cap (I have a plastic cover) and I started thinking that as we had LOTS of wind a rain during the 4 weeks we were away in February that perhaps the water entered via the oil filler cap (maybe it wasn't screwed tight?). Could this be a reasonable conclusion? If so, can someone suggest the best way to seal the engine compartment backed up with a youtube video or photos please? In the meanwhile, I will ensure the drainage holes are clear and cover the engine to monitor and prevent water dropping onto it. Thanks for any suggestions. Brent PS Not sure if posting photos of the stopped engine would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 Brent is a new forum member (Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Brent) and I’ve transferred his first posting from another discussion as I believe his enquiry will get better attention starting from scratch. (I think the image I’ve attached below shows a late-1990s 2.8 motor.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Was the water in the cylinders or sump? Water entering through the oil filler cap would only be in the sump whereas if it had entered through the air intake system then it would mainly be in the cylinders. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Driving in a heavy rain storm must be worse for possible water ingress to engine bay than sitting and being rained on. I find it surprising that only after 4 weeks it won’t start. I would have thought even with water in the engine it would turn over. Maybe that’s not the reason for the seized engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Thank you Derek and appreciate your help. Yes the image is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Hi Keith, I'm sure they said the sump had water but also looking at the photos, there is evidence of water here too. Regards, Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Hi, To be precise, the engine did fire up but didn't run as there was a loud bang and it seized. Initially thought it was a jammed starter motor but the garage I took it to found the engine seized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weldted Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Possibly you had a slight leak on the head gasket I think you have the aluminium head on that engine. A small amount of water will stop the engine dead if its in the cylinder that is on the compression stroke. Transits were known for water to enter the air filter and cause problems. I have worked on many Fiat engines similar to yours but not come across one seizing that quick other than with head gasket problems. When the garage stripped it down did they find water in the cylinders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 This link provides information about engine ‘hydrolocking’ and head-gasket failure is mentioned as a possible cause. https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-can-hydrolocking-occur-and-why-is-it-a-potential-engine-killer/ (Although it might be possible for rainwater to enter the motor’s interior if the oil filler-cap had not been adequately tightened, given Brent’s description of the problem it seems unlikely that this would have been the culprit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Hi, I did ask the mechanic if he thought the head gasket could have been the cause but he said with all the quantity of water he doubted it. So in the end this is what was replaced. 4 x block liners, cylinder head, crankshaft, 4 x conrods, diesel pump, 4 x injectors. I attach a photo of the head - looks pretty rusty. Unfortunately the rebuild was carried out quite far away and with the lockdown, I couldn't visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Thanks for the link Derek. I agree that the oil filler cap is unlikely to be the culprit. I do however think it is the head gasket that perhaps allowed water to leak in while it was standing for 4 weeks and probably not helped by large fluctuations in temperature. At least that what I'm hoping as I really don't wish to go through that expense again! Although 25 years old, she has only done 35k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teccer1234 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 My last van was a hymer 544 , 1992 ,I don't suppose this has anything to do with your problem but out in Spain during a thunderstorm the road started to flood nearly 1 ft deep so I decided to reverse back up a slope to get out of the flood, just as I got up the slope out of the flood the motor started to miss (I thought this is a diesel so water wouldn't make it miss) so carried on up the slope then BIG bang, silence, I tried to start the motor but turning the key done nothing, got taken to a fiat garage, boss came out, "water in motor?" when they stripped the motor down 2 piston rods were bent like bananas, turbo busted, injectors knackered , van off road for 4 weeks as it was xmas time, difficult to get all the spairs, the machanic said the reason was on that make of camper the air intake was situated just behind the center of the front axel facing backwards and by driving backwards it sucked up water into the motor, he sorted it out for the future and rerouted the air intake to above the motor so it would never happen again. moral, check your air intake in any type of van to see that it don't happen to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 This 2013 forum thread refers to water entering the motor of a 2007 Ducato with 3.0 litre motor, not the earlier 2.8 litre powerplant. But the discussion may still be of interest https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/fiat-ducato-motorhome-water-in-engine/32197/ (I doubt it will be relevant, but it might be useful to know if Brent’s 2.8 litre motor is turbocharged or normally-aspirated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 The photos you have posted show a clearly bent con rod, typical of a 'hydrauliced' engine. This will be due to water entering the cylinders, either through the inlet or the head/gasket. Was the head reused, and if so was it pressure tested? If not the head then you will need to check if water is getting in the inlet somewhere, I'm not sure of your model of Ducato, but others are renown for leaking water into/onto places which cause problems. It is unlikely that water has got into the engine via the oil cap, and even if it did, it wouldn't have caused a bent conrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Thanks Colin. A refurbished head has been fitted. I will look for information on this "I'm not sure of your model of Ducato, but others are renown for leaking water into/onto places which cause problems". Thanks everyone for your comments which were very useful and appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Having been involved in repairs to cylinder heads in the past I'm suspicious of the amount of corrosion within the time indicated. I suggest there's more to this than has been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Thanks. Could this explain it? MH was last used on a proper run in June (300+ miles). It then went for bodywork repair in August (meant to be for 2 weeks but ended up being 3 months as the company went into liquidation though I think it would have been started up to move around the site). It was driven home (10 miles) and MOT'd in January (15 miles). Thats all its had done in the previous 6 months - could the corrosion be due to being unused for so long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 Brent141 - 2020-05-05 11:48 AM Thanks Colin. A refurbished head has been fitted. I will look for information on this "I'm not sure of your model of Ducato, but others are renown for leaking water into/onto places which cause problems". Thanks everyone for your comments which were very useful and appreciated. Your motorhome is 1999-vintage. The Ducato (X250) range of vehicles that rapidly gained a bad reputation for water running down the windscreen, leaking into the engine compartment and causing problems did not begin to be manufactured until 2006. Those problems did not match what has happened to your motorhome’s engine and (to the best of my knowledge) the 2.8 litre motor was not understood to be vulnerable to this type of ‘hydrolocking’ failure. I’m afraid that yoiu may never establish why this occurred :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Water running into the engine compartment and causing problems has been a feature of several models of Ducato, the first one I know of was would be around year of op maybe earlier when it went over battery and washed out the acid, then there was the water running into the gearbox, all well before the x250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2GB Racing Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 If the head gasket was failing or had just failed standing idle for a period coolant could well drain into a cylinder or two and cause hydraulicing on start up as in the photo of the bent rods, Engines need very little ingress for this to happen like a couple of table spoons per cylinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent141 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 I think I'm going to hope it was a failing head gasket and keep an eye out for any water leaks in the engine compartment. Once again, thank you all for your input - really appreciated. :-) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 This happened just after (in terms of use, not time) the vehicle had been MoTd and serviced. It's present mileage points to an average, over its life, of only 1,750 miles per year! That is an awful lot of standing around. Brent's only had it for the past year, so I assume no detailed history. It may have been driven harder then usual during either of those procedures (to shake the lead out of its boots?), at least in terms of revs and load, which I suppose might have resulted in the cylinder head loosening or distorting to a small extent, 'though, assuming they are the original head and gasket, they will have been in place for the past 20 years so a little difficult to see why it should suddenly decide to let go then. Whatever, the sequence seems to fit that pattern. Good run, so fully up to temperature with the coolant level at max after the service, then switch off and leave to cool. Slight leakage during driving could have displaced a small amount of coolant, but when left standing at pressure, could well have resulted in a build-up in whichever cylinder. It's a four stroke, so if the particular piston stopped near the top of its power stroke, it would have been able to complete three strokes on starting with one other pot firing before the water hit the head on its compression stroke. That would also be consistent with the replacement crankshaft, which was presumably distorted when the piston hit the head under power. Any instruction to take it back to the workshop after, say, 3,000 miles, to check the torque on the head nuts/bolts? Used to be de rigueur! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Brent141 - 2020-05-04 3:27 PM Hi, To be precise, the engine did fire up but didn't run as there was a loud bang and it seized. The fact the engine actually turned over before going bang implies to me that the cylinders where not full of water at first but sucked the water from within the intake system then hydraulic locked. So I would check the intake system for any possible points that water could leak into the system and maybe spray water onto the windscreen and see where it runs off to. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Any possibility that water came in with the fuel? Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 tonyishuk - 2020-05-10 4:01 PM Any possibility that water came in with the fuel? Rgds I doubt it very much! A 'typical' injection quantity is circa 50 mm^3 per firing stroke (and a round number for simplicity of calculation). So a 2.8 litre engine would have a single cylinder capacity of 0.7 litre or 700,000 mm^3. Divide this by 50 mm^3 and multiply by 2 for one injection per 2 revs and it would then take 28,000 engine revolutions to 'fill' one cylinder. If the engine were 'fast idling' at say 1,400 rpm then this would take 20 minutes to fill the single cylinder with fuel/water. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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