Is it still worth buying a nearly new motorhome in 2020?

[Will86]

TonyC

 

Regarding the narrow boat versus a M/H, on a narrow you're trapped on a very limited one-style of travel, worth a test run as a spectator and tha's all. A M/H allows you a world of freedom, a win win situation.

 

Will

[BruceM]

TonyC123 - 2020-05-30 9:39 PM

 

At 84,000 miles I would be wondering how long its going to carry on before you start getting repair jobs cropping up- suspension, steering, engine maybe...

 

As an educational aside, it’s worth bearing in mind that motorhomes are built on a commercial vehicle base unit. It is to all intensive purposes a loaded commercial van and will be expected to have a mechanical service life of in excess of 300,000 miles. So 84,000 is not a great deal of mileage. If you are tempted to buy second user I’d suggest you avoid excessively low mileage vans. A ten year old van with only 15,000 miles on the clock will have been standing around a great deal which will have done it no good. My rule of thumb is to look for something with at least an average of 5,000 miles a year on the clock.

 

If you purchase new, expect to go through a number of teething troubles over the first six months. Unlike modern cars motorhomes are low volume largely hand built complex vehicles with all the opportunity for error that implies. So when you get your van I’d suggest you try it out in the UK for at least a couple of months before venturing long distance abroad.

 

Finally, you mentioned payload. If you trawl the forum you’ll come across some payload horror stories. Basically, it would appear that you cannot guarantee a dealer will sell you a vehicle that will be legal payload wise. This very long (and I feel rather sad) tale is worth reading end to end. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Chelston-Motorhomes/51632/

[TonyC123]

BruceM - 2020-05-31 12:02 PM

 

TonyC123 - 2020-05-30 9:39 PM

 

At 84,000 miles I would be wondering how long its going to carry on before you start getting repair jobs cropping up- suspension, steering, engine maybe...

 

As an educational aside, it’s worth bearing in mind that motorhomes are built on a commercial vehicle base unit. It is to all intensive purposes a loaded commercial van and will be expected to have a mechanical service life of in excess of 300,000 miles. So 84,000 is not a great deal of mileage. If you are tempted to buy second user I’d suggest you avoid excessively low mileage vans. A ten year old van with only 15,000 miles on the clock will have been standing around a great deal which will have done it no good. My rule of thumb is to look for something with at least an average of 5,000 miles a year on the clock.

 

If you purchase new, expect to go through a number of teething troubles over the first six months. Unlike modern cars motorhomes are low volume largely hand built complex vehicles with all the opportunity for error that implies. So when you get your van I’d suggest you try it out in the UK for at least a couple of months before venturing long distance abroad.

 

Finally, you mentioned payload. If you trawl the forum you’ll come across some payload horror stories. Basically, it would appear that you cannot guarantee a dealer will sell you a vehicle that will be legal payload wise. This very long (and I feel rather sad) tale is worth reading end to end. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Chelston-Motorhomes/51632/

 

Thanks Bruce, I read that thread in full and it is a scary thought that even a established dealer with a good reputation could overlook the key issue of payload.

I will make a comprehensive list of the things I think I need at the moment, and try to estimate my required payload, and add in water, gas etc when I draw up a final shortlist.

If I go the way of buying from a dealer, I will also ask them to put the payload in writing as part of the paperwork, taking account of any extras packs fitted. 600 kg sounds great to a layman, but a few extras fitted could just about wipe it out.

I am a bit worried about the idea of buying new to be honest. I have heard stories about the number of visits needed to fix snags even on top quality marques, and how some dealers basically treat you like an inconvenience as soon as you've driven your purchase off the lot.

Once I'm in position to purchase, if I see a suitable van I'll do a search here for the dealer name, to see if I can get a feel for how they treat people. I've been put off the likes of Lowdhams and Brownhills by the sheer number of tales I've heard and read. Not sure if thats just a reflection of the sheer volume of business they do maybe?

But you hear tales of vans being dropped off for repairs, and the owner arriving back a few days later, with no visible evidence of any work done, etc. I really don't need that, so avoiding the dealers with bad reputations is something I will try to do via research, and carefully worded questions here etc.

[Brian Kirby]

BruceM - 2020-05-30 8:56 PM

 

All this talk got me thinking about second hand motorhomes and I came across this

 

https://kirkwall-automotiv.co.uk/cars/dethleffs-j-5830-integrated/

 

– is it a scam?

 

A 2005 'A' class Dethleffs Esprit would fetch £24,000 in the UK and yet here it’s listed at 8,000 euros . A sensible 84,500 miles on the clock and whilst the devil’s in the detail it still appears to be mightily low priced given the package. Incidentally it has a drop down bed and I think a rear kitchen and small under floor garage.

The address is a private house down a private (gated) road in Caterham, Surrey. Most of the houses appear large in Google Earth, and there are no stocks of motorhomes visible in anyone's gardens. But odd that they are all riced in €. There's an LHD Hymer B SL504, 2008, 83,000 miles (Poss km?), for €11,450 - and the vehicle description is in French. Importer? Might be genuine, but equally………………….! Careful!

[BruceM]

Yes – I think you’re rightt Brian. An image search shows that the website is using some imagery from this company’s website https://www.kehoebros.ie/about-us/. Trans European Agricultural Machinery Limited is a dormant company and probably has no connection to the website. The website is possibly a fake – only in registered in November 2019.

[Guest rael]

Adiebt - 2020-05-31 12:32 AM

 

rael - 2020-05-30 11:06 PM

 

Adiebt - 2020-05-30 11:10 PM

 

StuartO - 2020-05-29 4:00 PM

Sadly British built MHs are poor build quality and lack durability and residual value compared to the better Continental makes.

 

What a load of generalising tosh .

 

I sometimes find myself disagreeing with Stuart, but he is correct. generalising? possibly, but he has a good point. I have owned 5 motorhomes over the years, all LHD so all "continental' I've looked at British ones, but most are so dreary and lack imagination, are poorly built and the prices are crazy.

 

Bailey motorhomes ( as an example ) dreary ? Spacious. , airy and well lit inside , lack imagination ? Well if locating an oven above head height or below shin height is imaginative well crack on , most continental vans Ive been inside are claustrophobic and chronically under use the internal dimensions of the van , poorly built ? I dont buy poorly built products so quid pro quo they are not , and jeepers if you want to splurge oodles of cash go buy continental , spend in haste repent at leisure !

 

Each to their own, I suppose I looked at hundreds of European motorhomes over the years, at Dueseldorf Caravan Salon, Essen Camping Messe etc. and dozens of German dealers. The choice is mind boggling and the market highly competitive. I've never found the problems that you mentioned, but again, each to their own I've just not been impressed with what I've seen of UK motorhomes at UK dealers. In terms of price, yes if you buy a RHD European motorhome from a UK dealer you're likely to pay way over the odds, not sure why. If you buy LHD from a German dealer you will save money, and often a lot. I know because I have done it. Had a quick look the other day and the German price for the latest 2020 Sunlight Cliff XV 540 panel van is Euro 46,645 (£41,556)

The same vehicle at a popular southern UK dealer is £48,154, a difference of just over £6,500.

[76zedfour]

Tony,

 

I have read this thread and the one on the fun forum.

 

If I have this right you have a budget of ideally £50k and want

a big lounge

a drop down bed

a large rear bathroom

plenty of storage for full timing

a large garage for ebike and/or moped

600kg payload in a 3500kg van

at least 150w solar

winterised for full timing

refillable lpg

be under 7m in length

 

I would suggest you also need it;

alarmed as you will have all your worldly belongings

satellite TV to entertain you,

automatic gearbox to make driving a big van less stressful

 

I did give you a shortlist last week and mentioned the burstner 680g, chausson 6xx vans, and the Dethleffs t6767 as likely meeting your needs. Others have stressed do not buy new your first van. You have since been all round the houses and have looked at he burstner but think it's too expensive.

 

Which leads me to again highlight the dethleffs trend t6767 which seems to meet all your criteria

Watch a few of these videos

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=trend+t6767

 

One for sale on gumtree within your budget would probably suit you.

[Derek Uzzell]

76zedfour - 2020-06-06 7:36 AM

 

Tony,

 

I have read this thread and the one on the fun forum.

 

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/sacrifices-needed-to-full-time-in-a-6-metre-van.220348/

[76zedfour]

Incidentally the Dethleffs trend range can be uprated to 3850kg as just a paper exercise. JR consultancy can do it for £180

 

Read thread here

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Weight-upgrade/50266/

 

The van in question is 7.4m long with rear bed and Miro of about 100kg heavier so I suspect the t6767 at 7m with cupboard and garage behind the rear axle would probably give you a hell of a lot more play on the rear axle weight even without uprating.

[flicka]

I'm a little confused by this thread.

Tony wants a fixed bed & a garage, but doesn't want a raised level bed which requires steps.

A Motorhome with a useful garage, will have a high level bed(s) above, to maximum use of that area.

There are models from various manufacturers in the 6.5 to 7.5m lengths, which have fixed steps to access the bed instead of a ladder. Which have transverse double bed or twin longitudinal singles. I would suggest the latter option could provide a solution with 1 single made up ready for use & the other made up as & when required, but as an additional useable space normally.

[Derek Uzzell]

This thread was begun by TonyC123 on 29 May and has 85 postings.

 

Two days ago (4 June) Tony initiated a MotorHomeFun forum thread that covers very similar ground. The MHFun thread currently has 118 postings, and is in full flow with 20 postings made today.

 

I notice that this thread (the Out&AboutLive one) ‘paused’ on 31 May and I’m guessing Tony has decided to see if MHFun forum members can usefully add to the large volume of advice that has been provided here. For the time being I suggest Tony be left to digest the combined O&AL and MHFun information.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

76zedfour - 2020-06-06 10:02 AM

Incidentally the Dethleffs trend range can be uprated to 3850kg as just a paper exercise. JR consultancy can do it for £180

Read thread here

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Weight-upgrade/50266/

The van in question is 7.4m long with rear bed and Miro of about 100kg heavier so I suspect the t6767 at 7m with cupboard and garage behind the rear axle would probably give you a hell of a lot more play on the rear axle weight even without uprating.

True, but - and it is a big but - all that is achieved is to add the front axle maximum permitted load to the rear axle maximum load which leaves no tolerance for load distribution.

 

Most (but not all, I accept) vans run out of rear axle load before they run out of MAM. "Garage" vans are especially prone to this, in part because the presence of the garage, invariably behind the rear axle, increases the rear overhang, and load placed behind the rear axle (due to the effects of leverage) adds more than it self-weight to the load on the rear axle while at the same time deducting the difference from the front axle load.

 

The limit factor that mostly comes into play when vans become overloaded is the rear axle load limit and not the overall MAM. Even if the rear axle were not actually at its maximum under normal load conditions, a simple "desktop" uprating is unlikely to impart anything like the load carrying benefit that uprating the MAM from 3,500kg to 3,850kg (350kg) at first suggests.

 

Someone who has yet to plumb the mysteries of how the loads placed in a motorhome distribute between its axles, especially when the transfer of load from a (usually) midships located fresh water tank to a (usually) rear mounted waste water tank is taken into account, might well be persuaded to buy a completely unsuitable vehicle if relying on the notion that any overload problems can be eliminated for £180 via a JR consultancy 3,850kg desktop upgrade. It might be useful, but it might not, and finding out after buying the van is liable to prove costly.

 

So, I would urge great caution over assuming that a poorly balanced original design, that maximises storage behind the rear axle, can be easily fixed.

[23addy46]

Hi, good evening all,

Further to this long running (convoluted?) thread, perhaps someone within our forum has the ability (that I

don't have !) to search through the archives of MMM, the magazine circa 2000 onward to find an absolutely brilliant article re 'balancing out weights' within your Motorhome (my description not the title of the article) - I have to admit defeat in sourcing my own printed article copy of same, and having parted (FREE) my 1997-2015 actual MMM's can no longer search for it !

The article was explained in great, but easy to understand in that, after weighing a particular item to be carried, one simply calculated the position to be carried/stored by measuring from the rear (or front) axle center line to give an accurate weight at every position within the Motorhome...I simply produced an 'outline photostat' (traced from Brochures), completed all measurements required upon it (eg;- wheel base 4040mm - 1675mm Back axle fwd to fresh water tank - Back axle to Tow Ball point 1780mm etc.etc.) thus very accurately able to calculate both overall & Front & Back running weights !! Obviously the starting point of all the above was to visit the local weigh bridge for Front, Back & O/A weight verification's..

At our purchase new of 'Bessie' E695 on Maxi Chassis this system was invaluable in 'getting to know how and what we could legally carry, something so very often preached within the forum, but having watched far to many 'Rear Garage' Motorhome's (usually European Manufactured) arrive 'tail down', I wonder how many owners really do know what weight they are loading upon the Back Axle ?.

I really hope someone is able to 'dig out' this brilliant article, if only to be able to re print it for myself again..

Take Care, we may be on the road soon ????

Dave Adams

[colin]

23addy46 - 2020-06-06 7:52 PM

but having watched far to many 'Rear Garage' Motorhome's (usually European Manufactured) arrive 'tail down', I wonder how many owners really do know what weight they are loading upon the Back Axle ?.

 

Or British ones rearing up at the front as I seem to often see.

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave Adams

 

I’m pretty sure you are referring to articles written by the late Mel Eastburn and that were published in MMM Magazine in 2004 (August/September/December issues) and mentioned in this old forum thread.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/REACHING-70-AND-WEIGHTS/1671/

 

I’m not sure if I have Mel’s articles, but I believe the attached image comes from one of them.

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave Adams

 

A PS to my last posting...

 

I do still have Mel Eastburn’s three MMM articles (titled “IT AIN’T HEAVY - IT’S MY MOTORHOME!)

 

My copies are not in great condition as I just ripped them roughly out of the magazines, but they should be readable if I scan them.

 

If you PM me with an email address I’ll see what I can do - but don’t hold your breath.

[23addy46]

Hello and good morning Derek,

Your a gem.... Yes please, and thank you for your offer !

Was intending to add to yest evening post - as around 3.30 this morning, "he ain't heavy" flashed through my geriatric mind ? - was still awake an hour later trying to remember Mel's name !

But, did remembered where my original copy went ? - I past it on to a gentleman (+ wife and 2 children) in France few years ago - who's front wheels where so lightly loaded he couldn't reverse up his level ramps - his 'garage' was so overloaded ! So, so dangerous, and completely ignorant of his self induced problem ! All MH owners, experienced & new should have, read, understand and apply the info contained in this article.

Further thought :- Perhaps ALL MH Dealers/Sellers should provide copies (plus explanation) at the point of sale ?

It really is the best !

my Email - xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Many Thanks

Dave Adams

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave

 

OK - I’ve taken a note of your email address and blanked it on your posting.

 

(Best not to provide an email address within a forum - which is why I suggested you PM me.)

[23addy46]

Ah - Ok thanks again..

Dave A

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave Adams

 

I’ve just sent you an email with scanned copies of all 11 pages in Mel Eastburn’s ‘motorhome weights’ MMM articles.

 

I’ve attempted to test that they will transfer OK and they seem to, but you’ll need to let me know if you don’t receive them or can’t handle them in their present form and I’ll have another go using a different technique.

 

Derek

[TonyC123]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-06-06 1:57 PM

 

This thread was begun by TonyC123 on 29 May and has 85 postings.

 

Two days ago (4 June) Tony initiated a MotorHomeFun forum thread that covers very similar ground. The MHFun thread currently has 118 postings, and is in full flow with 20 postings made today.

 

I notice that this thread (the Out&AboutLive one) ‘paused’ on 31 May and I’m guessing Tony has decided to see if MHFun forum members can usefully add to the large volume of advice that has been provided here. For the time being I suggest Tony be left to digest the combined O&AL and MHFun information.

 

 

Thank you Derek, and that is correct. Like many people do, I actually asked the question about full timing in the belief that I was pretty close to knowing what I wanted.

But the wealth of useful information, sound advice and shrewd vehicle suggestions that people have been kind enough to offer, both here and the other site, have basically led to me throw my list out of the window and start again.

 

Out of courtesy and gratitude for the people who have taken the time an trouble to give advice and information, I do want to explain where my thinking is currently at (and I can see that there are several vehicle already suggested in this thread that could well fit the bill, although I'm now on hold until end of July in terms of long-distance visits to see examples of these vehicles in person.)

These thoughts are continuing to develop, which is why they have conflicted at times, and thankfully I have another 7 weeks or so before I start really getting a firm shortlist together, but this is where I am at now:

 

I'm now looking more in the 7 metre range than the 6 metre, because although my top priority is still a generous lounge space, my second priority is a small motorbike, preferably 125- and that will inevitably affect the available lounge space if it is kept in a garage.

From reading some very informative payloads threads on this site, I can see that a 120kg bike plus 30kg rack and towbar is a lot of weight to put on the rear end of a van, especially one with a long rear overhang.

So if possible I'd like a garage that can hold a small motorbike. That would move the bike a bit close to the rear axle, reducing the load on that axle a bit, and will make it a bit more secure against theft.

So layout-wise, the way this is shaking out is that the vehicles I am now looking at have rear beds over garages. I didn't want a rear bed particularly, but it sort of comes along with a large garage, and it would be quite convenient to be fair.

The ones that appeal most to me are those with transverse beds, as they seem to have longer lounges. This is one random example I found, although I've no idea about their reputation or quality, and havent see one in the flesh. But the layout looks ok, although a bigger lounge would be preferable:

 

https://www.mclouisfusion.co.uk/explore-range/360/overview

 

Squeezing both a largish garage and a generous lounge into 6 metres is not really possible- if I went for a 6 metre van as per my original idea, I'd need an external rack, and I would have to add in the cost of fitting all that ironmongery.

A trailer is a fair shout to carry a motorbike, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. I think a 7 metre motorhome will be enough of a challenge for me to get used to driving.

I'm also much more open to the idea of a used van than I was at first. I've had some very mixed experiences with used cars in past years, and become very wary about anything second hand with an engine, but of course motorhomes are driven very differently to cars, and are a much safer bet second hand.

The van will need to be fairly winter-proof, but as I understand it, I can do that if needed when I buy it, so it doesn't need to be an essential up-front feature. I do still want an extra battery and at least one solar panel if not two, for the off grid capability.

Payload will need to be at least 700kg to account for a motorbike.

The biggest reason for my change of heart on layout and length is because I got thinking about the lifestyle aspects.

I started to give some thought to how I would want to actually spend my time, as a solo traveller and based on quieter CLs and CSs for perhaps a week at a time.

It occurred to me that I would probably be looking to make local journeys of say 15-30 miles every day or two, to visits interesting sights and places. And I wondered if some of those trips might be better done on a motorbike, with its easier access into small villages, narrow lanes, etc. That might save a lot of wear and tear on the van, and would mean cheaper fuel bills overall, although the insurance cost of a bike would need to be factored in.

People seem very mixed on the usefulness of a motorbike, and I can see that couples might be less keen, but maybe a solo traveller could find one useful.

So that's where i'm at right now, although I do now have some more time to think and to plan.

I must apologise if I haven't answered all of the very helpful comments on the thread, I will be coming back every few days to over it, and I will also be looking back at some of the van suggestions that people made earlier in this thread, that at the time I ruled out for various reasons- some of those suggestions make a lot of sense, and once again, I must thank everyone who has given so freely of their time,experience, and information- it has been absolutely invaluable.

[silverback]

TonyC123 I think you might be finally getting somewhere, my thought for what it's worth, you still need a bit more pay load, maybe 800kg with the bike in the garage, also make sure the bike will go through the door it won't on that mclouis, off top of my head 1.2mtr opening to get the handle bars through with the mirrors removed. hope you finally get sorted

Jonathan

[23addy46]

Hello and good morning Derek,

Thank you for the 'perfect' emailed copies of 'He Ain't Heavy' etc. As clear as reading the original mag !

Many Thanks, would hope to be able to say hello in person sometime !

Dave Adams

 

[76zedfour]

Just an observation but I would say a lot of advice you are receiving is from people who travel as a couple (possibly even with dogs), have 7.5m+ vans with bigger overhangs and have different needs and expectations to you and frankly require a much greater payload than you will. I am a solo traveller, spending 6 months a year in my van, have had a motorbike so can offer my perspective. To get a large lounge and a large garage into a 7m you will need to look at coachbuilt vans with drop down beds. A class will give you that too but an older model to stay in your budget. In a coachbuilt the bed occupies the lounge so by its very nature it has to be big. Ensure you choose one that lowers fully to seat level as some don't and require a ladder. In my experience of looking at many models the fixed bed at rear in a 7m home whilst giving a large garage forces compromises elsewhere in the vehicle such as small lounge, cramped kitchen and/or toilet within shower arrangement which will grow tiresome very shortly if fulltiming and wilding. I have had such a van and sold after a year because I ended up resenting the space the fixed bed took from the rest of the van. This arrangement works better in a 7.75m+ van. Many couples do not like the idea of a drop down bed because of difficulty for one of them to get over the other to go to toilet at night. For a single person this problem doesn't exist so a drop down bed is a great space saving idea and as a blokey bonus you don't need to make the bed up as just raise it out of sight!

 

Efficient housekeeping like dumping grey and black water regularly will keep your weight down too by as much as 100kg. I would opt for a 3500kg with a large payload for now and see how it goes. It was ample for me. Uprating is an easy and cheap option if it comes to it and then downrating when you reach 70yrs old too.

 

If putting a motorbike in a garage another advantage of the drop-down bed over the fixed rear bed is in some modls it allows for a tall garage door on one side. They are tall for storing kayaks, skis,surfboards etc but ideal for putting in a cheap Lidl racking system so you can put all your junk on one side away from the motorbike. With the fixed bed over garage set up you don't have this so invariably everything seems to be in the way of the motorbike in my experience.

 

One last thing I found the rear washroom with big cupboard over garage setup excellent for long term/ fulltiming/ wilding. You have all your crap hidden at the back of the van in a big accessible cupboard and can easily keep the lounge neat and tidy. The vans with loads of little lockers dotted all around the lounge and above the fixed rear beds are just a pain to use and hard to keep the lounge tidy when you are getting dried off, changing clothes etc there.

 

Regarding battery and solar, if you are wintering in southern Europe/ morroco and not using an inverter for coffee machines, kettles, microwave etc then a 150w panel with a single battery will be enough for you. You can get all sorts of 12v or usb chargers for razors,toothbrushes, laptops so your electric usage is not that high. If in UK and on sites with electric every three of four days then probably ok too.

[Cattwg]

TonyC123 - 2020-05-29 1:24 PM

I'm retiring in August and for the last few years I've been pondering trying out a more mobile lifestyle, very likely full time in a motorhome, splitting the time between wild camping, CLs, and going abroad.

 

I’ve not followed every post of this thread so apologise if this has been raised before. You mention spending time abroad. Remember that after the transition period we will be subject to Schengen Area rules – no more than 90 days in any 180 in the Schengen Area, which covers most of Europe.

Cattwg :-D