Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for? That could never happen, could it? :-S Oh no it couldn't! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for? That could never happen, could it? :-S How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? ;-) ......... I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book B-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM...………... How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? ;-) ......... I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book B-) .......... We do, or at least we have up until now. But how will you fit in your 90 days, before Christmas, after Christmas, or either side of Christmas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM Deneb - 2020-07-31 8:08 PM What unintended consequences? Surely anyone who wanted to leave the EU would have been aware that it meant foregoing all the privileges of membership? Or are you suggesting that they didn't realise what they were voting for? That could never happen, could it? :-S How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? ;-) ......... I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book B-) .......... Thats funny. You have been telling us for years you had it all sorted. Some kind of note from the Mayor or something. A Pardron was it? That not gonna work then? Oh dear. Loads of people spend more than 90 days on mainland Europe within the motorhome community myself included. Always a long single trip for me but many like to do two or three stints which as we have seen is going to be problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? ;-) ......... But that's not the only consequence that was easily foreseen, is it? Loss of entitlement to EHIC and possible reintroduction of roaming charges are just two that will affect visitors, no matter how long or short your intended stay. There are others affecting businesses, for example. And I have many times bought products from EU suppliers more cheaply than I could purchase them for here, even factoring in delivery charges. Being outside of the EU, that is unlikely to continue from next year with the imposition of additional duties. I expect travel insurance costs will rise to cover the additional liability previously recoverable through the EHIC scheme, and there may possibly be additional restrictions on cover too. We received an invoice for nearly 900 euros last year solely for ambulance attendance and conveyance in The Netherlands. It arose because I had to make my own way to the hospital and find somewhere to park a MH when my wife was taken there, and as I had the EHIC cards in my possession, she was not able to produce hers until after the ambulance crew had left. All easily resolvable by email, but I hate to think how much the hospital charges would have been on top, all of which will fall to private insurance without EHIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 We generally do 5+months abroad: 3 from December to March and then a month each in Spring and Autumn. We’ve booked our ferries for winter and, Covid willing, expect to travel then and next Spring. I have everything crossed that a solution - universal visa ?- will be found. Extra Insurance, roaming charges and etc will have to be found from savings. I just can’t see elderly motorhomers being imprisioned, deported, fined heavily or refused entry for the heinous crime of wanting to travel, and spend money in the countries they travel to. I hope this rosy view of 2021 onwards doesn’t crumble but it is all that is keeping me going at the moment. I suspect that the huge majority who voted for the mess we are in now spend 2 weeks abroad per year and it just never occurred to them that there would be travel problems for others....or any other problems ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fesspark Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN WINTERING IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL EVER YEAR SINCE 1982 AS I SOLD UP AND RETIRED TO THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND, WE WOULD RATHER CUT OUR HOLIDAY TO 90 DAYS THAN LET THESE ROBBING EUROPEANS BLEED US ANY LONGER. fesspark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? We do! We’ve been going to Europe for more than 90 days a year for over 15 years. Usually an extended trip in the spring and another in the autumn. Often with a package holiday or cruise over Christmas. We are going to have to choose our dates carefully after January. Without exaggeration, I know hundreds of people who regularly spend the autumn and winter in Spain – anything up to 6 months. Some of them live in their motorhome or caravan; hence 5 or 6 months in the comparative warm of Spain and the remainder of the year in Britain. Unless a solution to the 90/180 days rule can be found or negotiated, they are going to have reorganise their lives. Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 fesspark - 2020-08-01 1:22 PM MY WIFE AND I HAVE BEEN WINTERING IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL EVER YEAR SINCE 1982 AS I SOLD UP AND RETIRED TO THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND, WE WOULD RATHER CUT OUR HOLIDAY TO 90 DAYS THAN LET THESE ROBBING EUROPEANS BLEED US ANY LONGER. fesspark It doesn't matter what side of the leave/remain debate people are/were on, but shouting abuse in capital letters is puerile behaviour.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Fifo - 2020-08-01 1:04 PM.................. I just can’t see elderly motorhomers being imprisioned, deported, fined heavily or refused entry for the heinous crime of wanting to travel, and spend money in the countries they travel to. I hope this rosy view of 2021 onwards doesn’t crumble but it is all that is keeping me going at the moment...……………….! I wish you well with that! But, can you think of any other law that is waived on the basis that the offender is elderly and has a motor caravan and wants to travel in foreign lands and spend money? The actual penalties do not, as I understand it, extend to imprisonment. Just warnings for accidental minor infringements, fines, which can be quite severe for greater, and especially deliberate infringements, and for serial offences, banning from entry. Like it or not, it has to be taken seriously if you want to continue visiting without penalty. These laws already exist, and have been applied to other third country visitors to the EU for years. It is just that through our membership of the EU we haven't been subject to them. I can't see much likelihood of the 26 Schengen states, or the remaining non-Schengen EU states, negotiating among themselves to agree special measures for UK citizens who were never part of Schengen in the first place. We aren't banned, we have simply excluded ourselves from the benefit of privileges we previously enjoyed, and will now become subject to the laws for third countries that we agreed while members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 2:52 PM Fifo - 2020-08-01 1:04 PM.................. I just can’t see elderly motorhomers being imprisioned, deported, fined heavily or refused entry for the heinous crime of wanting to travel, and spend money in the countries they travel to. I hope this rosy view of 2021 onwards doesn’t crumble but it is all that is keeping me going at the moment...……………….! I wish you well with that! But, can you think of any other law that is waived on the basis that the offender is elderly and has a motor caravan and wants to travel in foreign lands and spend money? The actual penalties do not, as I understand it, extend to imprisonment. Just warnings for accidental minor infringements, fines, which can be quite severe for greater, and especially deliberate infringements, and for serial offences, banning from entry. Like it or not, it has to be taken seriously if you want to continue visiting without penalty. These laws already exist, and have been applied to other third country visitors to the EU for years. It is just that through our membership of the EU we haven't been subject to them. I can't see much likelihood of the 26 Schengen states, or the remaining non-Schengen EU states, negotiating among themselves to agree special measures for UK citizens who were never part of Schengen in the first place. We aren't banned, we have simply excluded ourselves from the benefit of privileges we previously enjoyed, and will now become subject to the laws for third countries that we agreed while members. We could always try the old "Do you know who I am?" statement. How's that worked out so far though? When I researched this one guy did actually get thrown in jail for a couple of days for over staying, in the Netherlands I think. Dont know what the actual circumstances were. Fines were typically £800 to over £1000 from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 2:52 PM I wish you well with that! But, can you think of any other law that is waived on the basis that the offender is elderly and has a motor caravan and wants to travel in foreign lands and spend money ?.... ...l.lThese laws already exist, and have been applied to other third country visitors to the EU for years. It is just that through our membership of the EU we haven't been subject to them. I can't see much likelihood of the 26 Schengen states, or the remaining non-Schengen EU states, negotiating among themselves to agree special measures for UK citizens who were never part of Schengen in the first place. No, you are right. If a member country wishes to exclude us they have both the right and the means to do so. I hope however that it will not come to that and extended visas will be available. Portugal have their Brelcome and Spain have made it clear that they wish to continue to receive long stay British over-winterers who, in significant numbers, ensure many campsites and associated businesses stay viable. Many of us, knowingly or not, already bend the law when we stay in Spain or Portugal for more than 90 days over winter. I have not heard of anyone registering with the local authorities or being fined for not doing so but it is a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnfromnorfolk Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 Fifo - 2020-08-01 3:14 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 2:52 PM I wish you well with that! But, can you think of any other law that is waived on the basis that the offender is elderly and has a motor caravan and wants to travel in foreign lands and spend money ?.... ...l.lThese laws already exist, and have been applied to other third country visitors to the EU for years. It is just that through our membership of the EU we haven't been subject to them. I can't see much likelihood of the 26 Schengen states, or the remaining non-Schengen EU states, negotiating among themselves to agree special measures for UK citizens who were never part of Schengen in the first place. No, you are right. If a member country wishes to exclude us they have both the right and the means to do so. I hope however that it will not come to that and extended visas will be available. Portugal have their Brelcome and Spain have made it clear that they wish to continue to receive long stay British over-winterers who, in significant numbers, ensure many campsites and associated businesses stay viable. Many of us, knowingly or not, already bend the law when we stay in Spain or Portugal for more than 90 days over winter. I have not heard of anyone registering with the local authorities or being fined for not doing so but it is a requirement. Sorry Fifo thats not quite right. We've not been subject to the 90 day rule as our membership of the E.U. allows us unlimited stays. It will not be the locals in Spain or Portugal who object to future overstays but the border controllers who electronically record your entry and departures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 johnfromnorfolk - 2020-08-01 4:11 PM Sorry Fifo thats not quite right. We've not been subject to the 90 day rule as our membership of the E.U. allows us unlimited stays. It will not be the locals in Spain or Portugal who object to future overstays but the border controllers who electronically record your entry and departures. John, why then do the C&CC say that we should ? The instruction is on page 86 of the current Winter Sun brochure (2019/2020) and has been for many years. Ditto the C&MC but I haven’t got one of those handy. : Quote “ If you are planning to stay in Spain or Portugal for longer than 3 months you must register in person with the local authorities. Please check the following for the most up to date information. ( and they give links to the 2 relevant UK Gov websites) Non- EU citizens should seek further advice from their relevant government service.” End quote I always understood that although we were EU members we were not Schengen members are that our stay was at the discretion of Spain or Portugal and not a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnfromnorfolk Posted August 1, 2020 Author Share Posted August 1, 2020 Fifo - 2020-08-01 4:24 PM johnfromnorfolk - 2020-08-01 4:11 PM Sorry Fifo thats not quite right. We've not been subject to the 90 day rule as our membership of the E.U. allows us unlimited stays. It will not be the locals in Spain or Portugal who object to future overstays but the border controllers who electronically record your entry and departures. John, why then do the C&CC say that we should ? The instruction is on page 86 of the current Winter Sun brochure (2019/2020) and has been for many years. Ditto the C&MC but I haven’t got one of those handy. : Quote “ If you are planning to stay in Spain or Portugal for longer than 3 months you must register in person with the local authorities. Please check the following for the most up to date information. ( and they give links to the 2 relevant UK Gov websites) Non- EU citizens should seek further advice from their relevant government service.” End quote ys understood that although we were EU members we were not Schengen members are that our stay was at the discretion of Spain or Portugal and not a right. Thanks Fifo. You are telling me something I wasn't aware of. I wonder how many long stay folk actually registered with the authorities. It has been my understanding that like the Irish republic, although we are not in Schengen but members of the E.U. we are subject to an open border policy. But that doesn't change the fact that after we leave the E.U. we will be facing restrictions on the amount of time we will be allowed to stay in the E.U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Fifo - 2020-08-01 4:24 PM johnfromnorfolk - 2020-08-01 4:11 PM Sorry Fifo thats not quite right. We've not been subject to the 90 day rule as our membership of the E.U. allows us unlimited stays. It will not be the locals in Spain or Portugal who object to future overstays but the border controllers who electronically record your entry and departures. John, why then do the C&CC say that we should ? The instruction is on page 86 of the current Winter Sun brochure (2019/2020) and has been for many years. Ditto the C&MC but I haven’t got one of those handy. : Quote “ If you are planning to stay in Spain or Portugal for longer than 3 months you must register in person with the local authorities. Please check the following for the most up to date information. ( and they give links to the 2 relevant UK Gov websites) Non- EU citizens should seek further advice from their relevant government service.” End quote I always understood that although we were EU members we were not Schengen members are that our stay was at the discretion of Spain or Portugal and not a right. That is merely advice to register, it is not a pre-condition for staying in excess of 90 days. As members of the EU we had the right to stay indefinitely (providing we behaved ourselves!), but we were still required to observe the laws of the individual states when doing so. In Italy, for example, it is normal for the local police to visit camp sites and hotels to check that they are maintaining the required records of who is staying. Different countries, different requirements, but all within the overall framework of the EU/Schengen requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 I think the trouble will be at the borders. In the past we could and did roam from country to country for as long as we want totally legally. Yes I think there are individual limits on each country but for European citizens nobody takes any notice of them, your passports are not checked or stamped at internal borders but in future they will know when you arrive in Schengen and more importantly when you try and leave. Of course if you overstay and wing it if you get pulled by the police, have an accident or some other incident you could well be in bother then also. There is the question of insurance. Will it be valid or not if you are in the country illegally? Too many things to worry about I think to try and just assume it will be business as usual. Spanish plod are known for coming up with schemes to top up the coffers. this might be a nice little earner for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 This is part of the answer I got from the Spanish Embassy when I wrote to ask about winter holidays lasting longer than 3 months. Quote For the Government of Spain, the question relating to the preservation of the rights of those citizens who exercised their right to free movement before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom constitutes a priority and the contingency measures being drawn up seek to achieve this goal. Unquote Seems quite positive but we shall see. Right at the beginning of all this the Spanish government made it clear that they would do all they could to ensure British holiday makers- and they recognise that many are long-stayers- were welcome as usual. The Foreign Office reply to my letter is basically the stock fudge letter which says nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 4:58 PM That is merely advice to register, it is not a pre-condition for staying in excess of 90 days. As members of the EU we had the right to stay indefinitely (providing we behaved ourselves!), but we were still required to observe the laws of the individual states when doing so. In Italy, for example, it is normal for the local police to visit camp sites and hotels to check that they are maintaining the required records of who is staying. Different countries, different requirements, but all within the overall framework of the EU/Schengen requirements. Whilst the EU freedom of movement permits citizens of member states the freedom to travel between countries in the EU for an unlimited time, it is subject to conditions under Article 21 which include certain requirements if staying in any individual state for more than 90 days, such as having sufficient financial resources and comprehensive health insurance cover that they do not become a burden on that country. For that reason, anyone intending to continue to stay in an individual member state other then their own after 90 days should make their presence known to the authorities. How or whether this is enforced in practice I have no idea, and because the freedom of movement with no internal border controls exists, it would I assume be very difficult to monitor. Individual member states are free to implement their own laws as long as they are compatible with Article 21, so it may be (I'm guessing) that Portugal and Spain do have more formal legislation in place for that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Fifo - 2020-08-01 5:33 PM This is part of the answer I got from the Spanish Embassy when I wrote to ask about winter holidays lasting longer than 3 months. Quote For the Government of Spain, the question relating to the preservation of the rights of those citizens who exercised their right to free movement before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom constitutes a priority and the contingency measures being drawn up seek to achieve this goal. Unquote But even if they do implement such measures, that will be fine for anyone travelling directly from the UK to Spain and returning by the same route. If you have to travel though any other EU member state as part of your journey you will still fall foul of the EU regulations at your point of entry to and exit from the EU, no matter what internal arrangements Spain may individually have with the UK. A Hercules or SuperGuppy charter for your motorhome, perhaps (lol) And don't forget that the Government of Spain recently sent a battleship into UK territorial waters around Gibraltar after we put them on a Covid blacklist, so they do also have other priorities not quite so amenable to our future fortunes ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Deneb - 2020-08-01 5:45 PM But even if they do implement such measures, that will be fine for anyone travelling directly from the UK to Spain and returning by the same route. If you have to travel though any other EU member state as part of your journey you will still fall foul of the EU regulations at your point of entry to and exit from the EU, no matter what internal arrangements Spain may individually have with the UK. A Hercules or SuperGuppy charter for your motorhome, perhaps (lol) ;-) Only once, in all the dozens of years we've been over-wintering in Spain, have we had to travel back via France. We always get the Portsmouth to Bilbao / Santander ferry and return. Same this year- already booked. We will not change, unless we have managed to get a long-stay visa for France for our Spring and Autumn trips. France in winter is often cold, wet and grey and, with water turned off in most aires, many campsites closed, high road tolls and ever-changing speed limits on N roads, it is best avoided ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Yes, but the decision does not lie with the Spanish government. Spain is in the EU, and also in Schengen, so will have to agree with both entities, and so the member states of each, what they will accept. Spain already has the right, as I understand it, to issue visas for longer stays, but it will probably require the agreement of the other EU/Schengen states if Spain wants to change the rules by which it issues those visas, and wants its new visas to be accepted by those other states. For motorhomers, for example, it will be beneficial if at least France accepts the Spanish visas, as otherwise anyone driving down will first be "booked" into Schengen at the French channel port of entry. If they then leave more than 90 days later via France they will show on ETIAS as having overstayed, and if they leave via a Spanish port there will have to be a facility for the Spanish border police to cancel the overstay that will otherwise be recorded on the ETIAS system. Failing that, the remaining solution will be to take direct UK - Spain ferries where, presumably, the Spanish long-stay visa will take precedence over the 90 days Schengen limit and the passports will not be recorded on ETIAS, or will be recorded into a special category. But the visa holder will have to remain only in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 11:54 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:40 AM...………... How many people on this forum actually spend more than 90 days abroad? ;-) ......... I do, and the fact that we will have to travel back for Christmas, instead of doing it out of choice is not much of a consequence in my book B-) .......... We do, or at least we have up until now. But how will you fit in your 90 days, before Christmas, after Christmas, or either side of Christmas? Surely a bright bloke like you can do the maths? 8-) ......... We plan to do a week at SIL gite to start our 180 days.....then return home for Crimbo as we have done for years except last Christmas ;-) ....... Then return to Brexit On Sea B-) ......... Although to be fair :-| ......... Chinky Flu has p*ssed on our plans *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Deneb - 2020-08-01 5:45 PM And don't forget that the Government of Spain recently sent a battleship into UK territorial waters around Gibraltar after we put them on a Covid blacklist, so they do also have other priorities not quite so amenable to our future fortunes ;-) A Battleship???? :-S .......... Does the Spanish Navy have any battleships? ;-) ........ More importantly :D ........ Do they really want to p*ss off a quarter of their tourrist income? 8-) ........ Whilst recovering from a Pandemic? >:-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifo Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-01 6:09 PM Yes, but the decision does not lie with the Spanish government. Spain is in the EU, and also in Schengen, so will have to agree with both entities, and so the member states of each, what they will accept. Spain already has the right, as I understand it, to issue visas for longer stays, but it will probably require the agreement of the other EU/Schengen states if Spain wants to change the rules by which it issues those visas, and wants its new visas to be accepted by those other states. . That's the snag. We could already, for a modest sum, get a visa to enable us to stay in a Schengen country for the purposes of education, business, to work and for a few other reasons. Not one of those reasons includes having a long holiday there. What I would like to think is happening is that this " long holiday " visa is going to be included. If others who are interested, as I asked earlier, would write to the relevant authority and remind them of the need perhaps something might happen ? Look otherwise like I might have to get a job or enrol for a post-doctoral degree or something. What I would not do to avoid a UK winter ! :-> (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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