jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-10-01 2:20 PM jumpstart - 2020-10-01 2:04 PM One of my original points was that this is going to have an enormous affect on the secondhand market especially for VDubs unless a high top is fitted. Even if they fit a high top the van still won't be classed as a motorcaravan. That's the point I'm making. You fulfill all the DVLA criteria and they still classify it as a van with side windows. There’s a post on the Fun forum at the moment which details the sheer incompetence of the DVLA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 The 2 windows criterion would be practically impossible to meet on SWB base vehicles such as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 jumpstart There are lots of postings on the MHFun forum (and on other forums) complaining about the DVLA. I’m guessing you are referring to the thread on the link below, though this has nothing to do with the V5-related issue being discussed here. https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/dvla-are-driving-me-mad.228333/ (If that’s not the MHFun ‘DVLA incompetence’ thread you have in mind, perhaps you could provide a link to the relevant one, please.) My understanding is that historically the DVLA has had a higher than average staff sick absence record and the COVID-19 pandemic won’t have helped. As mentioned here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dvla-coronavirus-covid-19-update the Swansea area is currently in lockdown, so anything DVLA-related that can’t be dealt with automatically on-line should be expected to take a while to process. And - if there’s any sort of complexity - contacting someone in the DVLA chain of command who has the necessary ability and knowledge (and inclination) to deal with the matter may prove very difficult. (I’ve never had any insoluable problems dealing with the DVLA, but as an ex-civil servant I’m used to communicating with large government organisations.) It’s plain that the ‘permanent external featrures’ criteria in the DVLA’s motor caravan conversion checklist either need more explanation (eg. what exactly is “a high top roof”? and why should “an awning bar” be important?) but the realistic chance of this being addressed in (say) the next 6 months is nil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Muswell - 2020-10-02 9:24 AM The 2 windows criterion would be practically impossible to meet on SWB base vehicles such as mine. They probably don’t like SWB anyway, it’s all very subjective. There is a list of the type of vehicle they would accept to change the V5 and they want them to “look” like motorcaravans. One of them is an ambulance, but once converted it looks like....well...an ambulance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Yes Derek that is the one. They probably are suffering as others are with the current restrictions, I just thought this showed the sort of problems you have dealing with them and the somewhat spurious reasons ( if any) that you get trying to change the V5,also shown by the hundreds of rejections that are being produced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 This link to the “Platinum Wave Campers” website is interesting https://www.platinumwavecampers.com/blog/how-do-i-register-my-camper-van-with-the-dvla as it seems to show an acceptance by a UK converter of the DVLA re-registering (or being prepared to re-register) a converted panel-van as a “van with windows” rather than as a “motor caravan”. Obviously the DVLA’s revised stance means that two PVCs that were visually and technically identical could have “motor caravan” as the body-type on the earlier vehicle’s V5C and “van with windows” on the other later vehicle’s V5C - that’s the way the historical cookie crumbles sometimes. In terms of safety equipment (eg. ABS) and the emissions produced, there’s a big difference between my first motorhome (a 1996-bult Herald) and my present 2015 Rapido - but that’s ‘progress'. It’s not possible to rewind time and although being unable to re-register a converted van as a “motor caravan” with the previous ease, if it becomes unavoidable for such conversions to be re-registered as a “van with windows” and there prove to be no adverse speed-limit, MOT-test or insurance knock-on effects, people will eventually regard this as the norm. This PVC ‘appearance’ issue has been lurking in the wings for years (like the VED emissions thing). The following 2011 link http://www.campervanconversion.co.uk/no-more-campervan-conversions-dvla-0 shows that the DVLA had revised its rules back then in much the same way as in 2019 and then relaxed them. Perhaps this would happen again if people politely put forward a logical and persuasive argument and refrained from slagging off the DVLA so much on-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Derek ,having read your link,I would have said it is mistaken in that they advise a “van with windows” has the same speed limits as a motor caravan. A van with windows...is a van. So 60 on dual carriageway not 70, except on M-ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 In this link the DofT clearly state that body type as shown on the v5 does not determine which which speed category it falls into. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/clarification_on_the_definition The last but one paragraph is interesting.... Regardless of what is on the v5 if the vehicle is altered to the spec of a motor caravan then it is subject to the speeds of that catagory. So speed cameras won’t know that though. See you in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 The UK speed limits are detailed here https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits My view (such as it is) is that in the caveat "You must not drive faster than the speed limit for the type of road and your type of vehicle”, where the vehicle has Type Approval it’s the Approval “Type” that matters. Although the DVLA may be prepared to re-register a converted commercial panel-van so that its V5C shows as the body type “Motor Caravan” or “Van with windows”, the panel van’s Type Approval class of (say) “N1” won’t alter to (say) “M1”, the Type Approval class that brand-new motor caravans normally occupy. Perry Grayson putting on a dress, wig and make-up doesn’t convert him into a woman... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 You must mean a Trans(it) body type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 I've just had an email response from the DVLA following my complaint about their decision. Once again they seem to contradict themselves. They say "As the external appearance of your vehicle remains as it was constructed and is not identifiable as a motor home externally, it is correctly described as ‘Van with side windows’. " However my van is not as it was constructed. It has numerous windows, roof lights, side awning, motorhome graphics and obviously the internal changes. In fact it has every external requirement that Derek outlines in one of his links that the DVLA stipulate. I just don't see why they bother listing the external requirements of a motorcaravan if once adhered too they don't change the v5 accordingly. If they simply said that any pvc will be categorised as a van with windows I wouldn't mind. It would be the same for everybody. But they don't as new conversions by the leading pvc converters are all classed as motorcaravans. Some of these don't even have graphics or awnings as they are extras !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 I quite understand your frustration. A T6 Transporter camper with pop up roof is designated Motor caravan when first registered. A T6 Transporter converted to a camper with pop up roof applying for v5 alteration is rejected as a Motor caravan. Beats the s..t out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 In the last 20 years we have had two Murvi motorcaravans both of which registered as motorcaravans being top spec conversions internally and windows awning rails bike rack externally but no decals save for details of Murvi and their address. Part of Murvi appeal is it's low level external appearance and ability to blend in. Murvi are now finding their vans are being registered as vans with windows even though they have been converting vans for around 40 years. There are clear speed implications if registered as van with windows and I think naive to hope that the magistrates will treat it as a motorcaravan if it is registered as a van even "with windows". As to it helping the police number plate recognition gives all details of owner and vehicle. I certainly will not be buying a new PVC until this is sorted. Next DVLA will be describing Coachbuilts as "Luton van with windows"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-10-02 4:24 PM I've just had an email response from the DVLA following my complaint about their decision. Once again they seem to contradict themselves.... Communicating with the DVLA can be soul-destroying, but you need to be persistent. If you send pictures of a Peugeot Boxer van that has had no conversion done (examples attached), plus photos of your vehicle that clearly show the side-windows that have been added, the awning and decals and highlight that the conversion includes all the ‘permanent extenal features’ in the DVLA’s conversion checklist (itemise each feature) that would be a start. (Me, I’d be tempted to add some extra side decals to gild the lily - you could always take them off afterwards.) I’d keep on emailing them and keep inundating them with pictures until whoever you are dealing with gets fed up and pushes your case ‘upstairs’ to someone who has more clout and is perhaps more accommodating. If email fails, send a letter that includes copies of the email exchanges. It probably wouldn’t get dealt with quickly at the moment, but most civil servants will take more note of written correspondence than emails. It really depends on how much you want your vehicle’s V5C to have “Motor Caravan” as the body type and how much effort you are prepared to put in to encourage the DVLA to agree to this. Eventually someone at the DVLA is likely either to tell you to b***** off or authorise the change to get you off their back. (It wouldn’t much surprise me if the DVLA's present policy is that EVERY application for changing the body type classification of a UK-registered vehicle to ‘motor caravan’ is being rejected despite there being no credible reason for rejection. It would be interesting to know if anyone applying since the DVLA’s rules have been tightened up has actually been successful.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsrider Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 The thought of a 'luton van with windows' did make me chuckle. I had no idea Murvi were having issues. The morello is my favourite pvc. What a design and if I didn't need bike storage I would buy one. It's not a speed issue for me to be honest. My racing days are passed and I prefer chugging to seeing chequered flags nowadays. 60 on those sort of roads is fine for me. But what grips my shi#t is when government agencies, which ultimately we pay for, behave in a way that seems so unfair. It's like answering every question correctly in an exam and being told you've failed. I definitely will keep going on this one with the DVLA. I agree with Derek that it is probably a blanket rejection of all pvc that is occurring. Their blanket rejection letter would definitely suggest so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Interestingly I was looking at ..when is a van not a van. Apparently according to law,if it’s primary purpose is to carry passengers and not goods,then it isn’t a van. So presumably a converted goods van to campervan even if it looks like a van is not subject to the lower speed limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Go Ahead jumpstart to get a motorcaravan in which you can sleep and all the other. Do not get frustrated, live is short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 But Only For TWO seatbelts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 trialsrider - 2020-10-02 7:45 PM The thought of a 'luton van with windows' did make me chuckle. I had no idea Murvi were having issues... This 2018 forum thread related to a Murvi Morello that had been UK-registered in 2007 with a body-type of “panel van” https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/V5-REGISTRATION/48779/ You may gather from my posting of 24 February 2018 8:09 AM in that thread that it was not unknown for this to happen with Murvi conversions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 I wonder if companies such as Vantage IH East Neuk and Wildax are being registered as "van with windows"during the last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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