Barryd999 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Assuming you believe him of course. This is the problem with the current government, they lie and spin on an level we have never experienced before ever. They simply cannot be trusted. It might be true about the science discovering that the strain was 70% more infectious just late last week but its also highly likely that Johnson was going to make these decisions anyway and put them off simply to avoid a ruckus within his own party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Which might have been believable except several journalists where able to sit in on a earlier SAGE meeting where it was discussed, and Mat Hancock had already told the HoC at beginning of week that it was spreading faster than other strains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 colin - 2020-12-20 6:13 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Which might have been believable except several journalists where able to sit in on a earlier SAGE meeting where it was discussed, and Mat Hancock had already told the HoC at beginning of week that it was spreading faster than other strains. In that case can you point out what the discussion of the new strain at the SAGE Meeting covered and where it was reported, so we can see precisely what was said. If SAGE was saying publicly at that stage that this new variant was so threatening surely it would have been sensational news? I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-12-20 5:28 PM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 4:35 PM Bulletguy - 2020-12-20 4:03 PM Matt Hancock admits the new strain of Covid is 'out of control' and Tier 4 could be in place for months https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/matt-hancock-admits-covid-out-4816635 It couldn't have happened in a worse place either. The south east is the most densely populated area in the uk and also of course encapsulates the Capital. Grim. And there was mass exodus from London last night. Yep, all those members of the great British public who we can rely on to assess the facts and arrive at responsible decisions! Cummings isn't unique after all! Who'd have thought it? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 6:54 PM colin - 2020-12-20 6:13 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Which might have been believable except several journalists where able to sit in on a earlier SAGE meeting where it was discussed, and Mat Hancock had already told the HoC at beginning of week that it was spreading faster than other strains. In that case can you point out what the discussion of the new strain at the SAGE Meeting covered and where it was reported, so we can see precisely what was said. If SAGE was saying publicly at that stage that this new variant was so threatening surely it would have been sensational news? I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. From July 2020..... https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/new-strain-covid-more-infectious-1.892276 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 6:54 PM I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55304340 You will note he said it was rapidly increasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 colin - 2020-12-20 7:52 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 6:54 PM I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55304340 You will note he said it was rapidly increasing. So they were taking a special interest in it; that makes sense but the serious alarm was not sounded to the politicians until 2pm on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-12-20 7:25 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 6:54 PM colin - 2020-12-20 6:13 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been in identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Which might have been believable except several journalists where able to sit in on a earlier SAGE meeting where it was discussed, and Mat Hancock had already told the HoC at beginning of week that it was spreading faster than other strains. In that case can you point out what the discussion of the new strain at the SAGE Meeting covered and where it was reported, so we can see precisely what was said. If SAGE was saying publicly at that stage that this new variant was so threatening surely it would have been sensational news? I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. From July 2020..... https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/new-strain-covid-more-infectious-1.892276 Was that the same variant? I haven’t seen an identifier for the one which is causing the current problem in London and it sounds pretty unlikely that a warning like that one would have lain fallow for five months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:03 PM So they were taking a special interest in it; that makes sense but the serious alarm was not sounded to the politicians until 2pm on Friday. From the BMJ published last week. Does this variant spread more quickly? Matt Hancock told the House of Commons on 14 December that initial analysis showed that the new variant “may be associated” with the recent rise in cases in southeast England. However, this is not the same as saying that it is causing the rise. Loman explained, “This variant is strongly associated with where we are seeing increasing rates of covid-19. It’s a correlation, but we can’t say it is causation. But there is striking growth in this variant, which is why we are worried, and it needs urgent follow-up and investigation.” I'm beginning to suspect 'last friday' means 11th, or he will claim not to have been given the % figure till 18th although knowing full well there was a large increase in how quickly it spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 20, 2020 Author Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:10 PM Was that the same variant? I haven’t seen an identifier for the one which is causing the current problem in London and it sounds pretty unlikely that a warning like that one would have lain fallow for five months. There have been several variants which have caused concern due to them more rapidly spreading, one was in Spain and this has been exported to several countries, if the Health Secutary is unaware of these it beggers belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 colin - 2020-12-20 8:17 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:10 PM Was that the same variant? I haven’t seen an identifier for the one which is causing the current problem in London and it sounds pretty unlikely that a warning like that one would have lain fallow for five months. There have been several variants which have caused concern due to them more rapidly spreading, one was in Spain and this has been exported to several countries, if the Health Secutary is unaware of these it beggers belief. The new variant they are worried about is reported by the BBC today to have been first identified in September and is referred to as H69/V70 so it seems unlikely to be the same one as in the Sheffield paper in July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 6:54 PM colin - 2020-12-20 6:13 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 5:56 PM Matt Hancock was quite explicit when he was asked about the emergence of this new strain coronovirus. The strain was spotted as a new variant a while ago but it did not become a particular threat until the data emerged (only on Friday) that it was responsible for the sudden and surprising increase of infections in London and the South East. The decision to apply Tier 4 and reduce the duration and scale of the Christmas relaxation was made just 26 hours later, to take effect only a few hours after that. Many variant strains of the COVID-19 virus have been identified but none until this one have shown any difference in the way they infect people. It will have been a tough decision to take to introduce Tier 4 and clamp down further on Christmas (after Boris saying he was determined not to compromise Christmas) but the Government acted very quickly and grasped the nettle. Which might have been believable except several journalists where able to sit in on a earlier SAGE meeting where it was discussed, and Mat Hancock had already told the HoC at beginning of week that it was spreading faster than other strains. In that case can you point out what the discussion of the new strain at the SAGE Meeting covered and where it was reported, so we can see precisely what was said. If SAGE was saying publicly at that stage that this new variant was so threatening surely it would have been sensational news? I have no recollection of Hancock telling the HoC that there was anything special or threatening about this new strain either - but again are you sure he said precisely that? Matt Hancock was quite specific in what he said this morning and so he was laying himself open to being contradicted (and called a liar) if there was evidence to the contrary but there has been nothing on the news to that effect today has there? I know that Kier Starmer has been calling the Government for dragging their heels in a nonspecific way but that's hardly the same thing. Since you are calling Hancock a liar (as Barry is also doing) the least you can do is back it up. Actually I said he could be lying and my argument was that they are now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not. Like I said they certainly knew it was rising rapidly well before they said they did as the evidence has been posted tonight so as I also said the delay in announcing Tier 4 and cancelling Christmas has been blamed on this sudden official announcement of the 70% figure but they knew full well long before then what was happening and by the looks of it Johnson decided to hang on until anyone that could have made him look bad by kicking off had buggered off home. Shocking stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:30 PM colin - 2020-12-20 8:17 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:10 PM Was that the same variant? I haven’t seen an identifier for the one which is causing the current problem in London and it sounds pretty unlikely that a warning like that one would have lain fallow for five months. There have been several variants which have caused concern due to them more rapidly spreading, one was in Spain and this has been exported to several countries, if the Health Secutary is unaware of these it beggers belief. The new variant they are worried about is reported by the BBC today to have been first identified in September and is referred to as H69/V70 so it seems unlikely to be the same one as in the Sheffield paper in July. It would seem there are various variants over here and in Europe with several countries admitting to this fact. It is unlikely that it can be kept under control ....anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 One wonders if The Ugly Sisters will bitch if the new strain of Covid is called The UK Virus or London Virus ??? ... I think they'd much rather just go full on with The Boris Virus or more likely The Cummings Virus, he seems to get the blame for everything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 4:35 PM Bulletguy - 2020-12-20 4:03 PM Matt Hancock admits the new strain of Covid is 'out of control' and Tier 4 could be in place for months https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/matt-hancock-admits-covid-out-4816635 It couldn't have happened in a worse place either. The south east is the most densely populated area in the uk and also of course encapsulates the Capital. Grim. So what was your excuse Ooop Norf for the less virulent virus spreading out of control? :-| ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 10:31 PM Actually I said he could be lying and my argument was that they are now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not. Like I said they certainly knew it was rising rapidly well before they said they did as the evidence has been posted tonight so as I also said the delay in announcing Tier 4 and cancelling Christmas has been blamed on this sudden official announcement of the 70% figure but they knew full well long before then what was happening and by the looks of it Johnson decided to hang on until anyone that could have made him look bad by kicking off had buggered off home. Shocking stuff. There's a big difference between alleging that someone "could" have been lying and ranting, as you do, that Government Ministers are "now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not" without clear evidence. You don't trust Boris or his team so you instinctively resort to accusations of bare faced lying and I think this approach is so blatantly instinctive to you and unsupported by evidence that in my eyes you are the one who is being conspicuously dishonest. Just as you no longer give any credence to Boris and his team I find that your rants rob you personally of any credibility. If only you weren't so extreme I would find it easier to give your opinions a hearing. Ministers will know these days that if they tell lies they are likely to be found out and shamed by the press so at the very least they are more likely, as they have to do some times, to be non-commital or evasive because a blunt and honest answer will do unnecessary damage, including quite frequently to the national interest. I happen to think that Matt Hancock is a good man, trying to his best in very difficult circumstances. I doubt that anyone who has become a senior politician has a completely squeaky clean record if it examined in sufficient detail but Matt Hancock deserves credit and credibility for what he has clearly been busting a gut to try to do all year. So let's stop calling him a bare faced liar just because your attitudes drive you in that direction, because you have absolutely fixed ideas about Boris because of his past failings. We live in a democracy so you need to be willing to persuade others of your views with factual information and reasoned agument, not lambast them, which will cause them to stop listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 11:17 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 10:30 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 10:25 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 10:12 AM colin - 2020-12-20 10:06 AM CurtainRaiser - 2020-12-20 1:28 AM But the Prime Minister knew on Wednesday that there was a new and deadly strain and he poured scorn on the Leader of the Opposition's fears about his insane determination to encourage Christmas festivities, then he misled the Commons and the country. Just to correct this, the new strain was known about back in November. But its ability to spread faster wasn't known was it? :-| .......... Unless we have some armchair scientists on here who were able to predict that would be how the virus would mutate? ;-) ............ The fact remains (and we dont know "really" how long they have known as they dont share the data and never have) they knew about a new strain, they knew cases were rapidly rising in certain areas but once again reacted too slowly and waited until it was too late. Time after time after time they have done this right back to when Johnson was too busy thinking about Brexit Gongs and then missing five Cobra meetings, shaking hands in covid hospitals, telling people to shake hands and take it on the chin etc etc etc. He is still doing it now because its a popularity contest to him. Its all about him and always has been. As regards Scotland, NI and Wales, they rely on what titbits Johnson decides to give them. All the science and data is shared at Westminster's discretion and as I say, they only like to share when it suits them. Please stop spreading Lies Barry *-) ........ Or show evidence where the UK scientists are not sharing evidence on the virus with Scotland or Wales? ;-) ....... BTW I mean genuine evidence :-| ........... Not any of your Fake News Bollox's >:-) ........ If you read decent media publications you would know this. They do share with the devolved nations but only when it suits them. Government controls that information. Decent journalists have been banging on about the lack of data sharing all year! BREAKING NEWS............Barry Fake News has NO Evidence to back up his claims >:-) ......... (lol) (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 8:30 PM....................................The new variant they are worried about is reported by the BBC today to have been first identified in September and is referred to as H69/V70 so it seems unlikely to be the same one as in the Sheffield paper in July. If it helps, the variant I have seen referenced isG202012 (or sometimes 202012G). A google for SARS-Cov-19 G202012 should yield some hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 I would have thought Police Officers should be the amongst the first to be vaccinated. Since they have to get up close and personal with all sorts of unsavoury people as part of their job, and thousands off work with covid already. Apart from deserving protection they have the potential to be superspreaders. But when the Head of the Police Federation was asked this morning how many Police Officers had been vaccinated his reply was 'Absolutely None' 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-21 8:40 AM I happen to think that Matt Hancock is a good man, trying to his best in very difficult circumstances. Thats because you worked in a very trusting environment where almost everyone was basically a good person doing their best. So Bad ones like Beverley Allett etc got away with it for so long. Because people like you were too trusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:39 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 4:35 PM Bulletguy - 2020-12-20 4:03 PM Matt Hancock admits the new strain of Covid is 'out of control' and Tier 4 could be in place for months https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/news/hertfordshire-news/matt-hancock-admits-covid-out-4816635 It couldn't have happened in a worse place either. The south east is the most densely populated area in the uk and also of course encapsulates the Capital. Grim. So what was your excuse Ooop Norf for the less virulent virus spreading out of control? :-| ........... If you remember it was the south where it spread rapidly first, they were the worst hit by a mile. The north was several weeks behind. Sadly the government once things started to recover in the south decided the entire country could just come out of lock down but with the north being behind the south they had not really recovered enough when the lock down was lifted so thats why it then spiked first the second time. Now many places in the north may have a big advantage because many places are less densely populated than the south and because most of the north has been in stricter tiers for what seems like forever our cases have come down massively in many areas. We have a head start so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-21 8:40 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 10:31 PM Actually I said he could be lying and my argument was that they are now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not. Like I said they certainly knew it was rising rapidly well before they said they did as the evidence has been posted tonight so as I also said the delay in announcing Tier 4 and cancelling Christmas has been blamed on this sudden official announcement of the 70% figure but they knew full well long before then what was happening and by the looks of it Johnson decided to hang on until anyone that could have made him look bad by kicking off had buggered off home. Shocking stuff. There's a big difference between alleging that someone "could" have been lying and ranting, as you do, that Government Ministers are "now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not" without clear evidence. You don't trust Boris or his team so you instinctively resort to accusations of bare faced lying and I think this approach is so blatantly instinctive to you and unsupported by evidence that in my eyes you are the one who is being conspicuously dishonest. Just as you no longer give any credence to Boris and his team I find that your rants rob you personally of any credibility. If only you weren't so extreme I would find it easier to give your opinions a hearing. Ministers will know these days that if they tell lies they are likely to be found out and shamed by the press so at the very least they are more likely, as they have to do some times, to be non-commital or evasive because a blunt and honest answer will do unnecessary damage, including quite frequently to the national interest. I happen to think that Matt Hancock is a good man, trying to his best in very difficult circumstances. I doubt that anyone who has become a senior politician has a completely squeaky clean record if it examined in sufficient detail but Matt Hancock deserves credit and credibility for what he has clearly been busting a gut to try to do all year. So let's stop calling him a bare faced liar just because your attitudes drive you in that direction, because you have absolutely fixed ideas about Boris because of his past failings. We live in a democracy so you need to be willing to persuade others of your views with factual information and reasoned agument, not lambast them, which will cause them to stop listening. Stuart, I could if I could be remotely bothered show you evidence of a raft of lies from all of them throughout this entire tragic debacle including Hancock. I dont think they care if they are found out by the press. Their supporters desperately want to believe them so even when the truth is exposed they simply ignore it. Take the whopping great lie that Hancock and others fed us all that the reason we got the vaccine first was because of Brexit. Absolutely bollox yet people still believe it now, even though its been clearly shown as a bare faced lie. Up thread Dave is wanting me to prove that the Tories kept the data to themselves. Its well documented that is exactly what they have done by respected journalists all over the country and I could if I wished prove it to him but whats the point? He will just ignore it. The Tories are on to a winner really as they have brainwashed their voters into just believing what they say even when its been proved as lies. I respect your opinions and views on here and always read them but I think you are being somewhat Naive when it comes to Hancock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-21 11:26 AM StuartO - 2020-12-21 8:40 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 10:31 PM Actually I said he could be lying and my argument was that they are now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not. Like I said they certainly knew it was rising rapidly well before they said they did as the evidence has been posted tonight so as I also said the delay in announcing Tier 4 and cancelling Christmas has been blamed on this sudden official announcement of the 70% figure but they knew full well long before then what was happening and by the looks of it Johnson decided to hang on until anyone that could have made him look bad by kicking off had buggered off home. Shocking stuff. There's a big difference between alleging that someone "could" have been lying and ranting, as you do, that Government Ministers are "now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not" without clear evidence. You don't trust Boris or his team so you instinctively resort to accusations of bare faced lying and I think this approach is so blatantly instinctive to you and unsupported by evidence that in my eyes you are the one who is being conspicuously dishonest. Just as you no longer give any credence to Boris and his team I find that your rants rob you personally of any credibility. If only you weren't so extreme I would find it easier to give your opinions a hearing. Ministers will know these days that if they tell lies they are likely to be found out and shamed by the press so at the very least they are more likely, as they have to do some times, to be non-commital or evasive because a blunt and honest answer will do unnecessary damage, including quite frequently to the national interest. I happen to think that Matt Hancock is a good man, trying to his best in very difficult circumstances. I doubt that anyone who has become a senior politician has a completely squeaky clean record if it examined in sufficient detail but Matt Hancock deserves credit and credibility for what he has clearly been busting a gut to try to do all year. So let's stop calling him a bare faced liar just because your attitudes drive you in that direction, because you have absolutely fixed ideas about Boris because of his past failings. We live in a democracy so you need to be willing to persuade others of your views with factual information and reasoned agument, not lambast them, which will cause them to stop listening. Stuart, I could if I could be remotely bothered show you evidence of a raft of lies from all of them throughout this entire tragic debacle including Hancock. I dont think they care if they are found out by the press. Their supporters desperately want to believe them so even when the truth is exposed they simply ignore it. Take the whopping great lie that Hancock and others fed us all that the reason we got the vaccine first was because of Brexit. Absolutely bollox yet people still believe it now, even though its been clearly shown as a bare faced lie. Up thread Dave is wanting me to prove that the Tories kept the data to themselves. Its well documented that is exactly what they have done by respected journalists all over the country and I could if I wished prove it to him but whats the point? He will just ignore it. The Tories are on to a winner really as they have brainwashed their voters into just believing what they say even when its been proved as lies. I respect your opinions and views on here and always read them but I think you are being somewhat Naive when it comes to Hancock. So still no evidence? *-) ........... Just the opinions of other scientists Loser Hacks and our resident Fake News merchant :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-21 11:33 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-21 11:26 AM StuartO - 2020-12-21 8:40 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 10:31 PM Actually I said he could be lying and my argument was that they are now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not. Like I said they certainly knew it was rising rapidly well before they said they did as the evidence has been posted tonight so as I also said the delay in announcing Tier 4 and cancelling Christmas has been blamed on this sudden official announcement of the 70% figure but they knew full well long before then what was happening and by the looks of it Johnson decided to hang on until anyone that could have made him look bad by kicking off had buggered off home. Shocking stuff. There's a big difference between alleging that someone "could" have been lying and ranting, as you do, that Government Ministers are "now used to telling that many bare faced lies its impossible to say whether they are lying or not" without clear evidence. You don't trust Boris or his team so you instinctively resort to accusations of bare faced lying and I think this approach is so blatantly instinctive to you and unsupported by evidence that in my eyes you are the one who is being conspicuously dishonest. Just as you no longer give any credence to Boris and his team I find that your rants rob you personally of any credibility. If only you weren't so extreme I would find it easier to give your opinions a hearing. Ministers will know these days that if they tell lies they are likely to be found out and shamed by the press so at the very least they are more likely, as they have to do some times, to be non-commital or evasive because a blunt and honest answer will do unnecessary damage, including quite frequently to the national interest. I happen to think that Matt Hancock is a good man, trying to his best in very difficult circumstances. I doubt that anyone who has become a senior politician has a completely squeaky clean record if it examined in sufficient detail but Matt Hancock deserves credit and credibility for what he has clearly been busting a gut to try to do all year. So let's stop calling him a bare faced liar just because your attitudes drive you in that direction, because you have absolutely fixed ideas about Boris because of his past failings. We live in a democracy so you need to be willing to persuade others of your views with factual information and reasoned agument, not lambast them, which will cause them to stop listening. Stuart, I could if I could be remotely bothered show you evidence of a raft of lies from all of them throughout this entire tragic debacle including Hancock. I dont think they care if they are found out by the press. Their supporters desperately want to believe them so even when the truth is exposed they simply ignore it. Take the whopping great lie that Hancock and others fed us all that the reason we got the vaccine first was because of Brexit. Absolutely bollox yet people still believe it now, even though its been clearly shown as a bare faced lie. Up thread Dave is wanting me to prove that the Tories kept the data to themselves. Its well documented that is exactly what they have done by respected journalists all over the country and I could if I wished prove it to him but whats the point? He will just ignore it. The Tories are on to a winner really as they have brainwashed their voters into just believing what they say even when its been proved as lies. I respect your opinions and views on here and always read them but I think you are being somewhat Naive when it comes to Hancock. So still no evidence? *-) ........... Just the opinions of other scientists Loser Hacks and our resident Fake News merchant :D .......... His 'government insider' told him ... Chuckle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-21 11:26 AM Stuart, I could if I could be remotely bothered show you evidence of a raft of lies from all of them throughout this entire tragic debacle including Hancock. I dont think they care if they are found out by the press. Their supporters desperately want to believe them so even when the truth is exposed they simply ignore it. Take the whopping great lie that Hancock and others fed us all that the reason we got the vaccine first was because of Brexit. Absolutely bollox yet people still believe it now, even though its been clearly shown as a bare faced lie. Up thread Dave is wanting me to prove that the Tories kept the data to themselves. Its well documented that is exactly what they have done by respected journalists all over the country and I could if I wished prove it to him but whats the point? He will just ignore it. The Tories are on to a winner really as they have brainwashed their voters into just believing what they say even when its been proved as lies. I respect your opinions and views on here and always read them but I think you are being somewhat Naive when it comes to Hancock. And I think you are beig over-critical without good enough reason. For example Hancock "lied" because he claimed that we got a vaccine quickly because of Brexit. He was perhaps making a fanciful claim and you might think it (because you are so inclined) that it was outrageous and/or baseless. But it isn't entirely unreasonable for him to regard the independent energy and spirit with which UK resources got stuck into developing and preparing vaccine options which the EU have been much slower to achieve - and therefore had we not left the EU, our contribution would not have happened as quickly, even if the Pfizer vaccine was not a British-only vaccine? He makes his own interpretation and forms his own opinion and it's different from yours. He wants to give credit for British effort and achievement which you would deny. Maybe he was wanting to take some personal credit too, as politicians do, although I didn't take it that way. But what is it that turns his opinion, which is merely different from yours, into a bare faced lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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