Barryd999 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-20 3:48 PM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 3:42 PM malc d - 2020-12-20 3:28 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 9:33 AM Given that both we and the EU are struggling with coronavirus and that there is no agreement for a non-turbulent end to the Transition Period, would it make sense to extend transition terms (i.e. preseve the status quo) for a period long enough for both sides to have got the virus under proper control? I was thinking of another twelve months. If another transition period is arranged, with Johnsons u-turn record - he may well apply to rejoin the EU by the end of it. ;-) LOL! That would be feckin funny! Imagine if that happened. Pelmet would simply explode. Mind you with a clear majority now in favour of remaining? (lol) Seems to me when Malc got off the fence ;-) ......... He arrived in Narnia aka Barryland :D ....... LOL! It would be funny though if you had to change your signature for the 42nd time. Just one question if we dont leave on the 31 December will there then be a transition period for you leaving the forum or will you be too busy still in your Garden or whatever the excuse was? (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtravel Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-12-20 4:07 PM ...You're accountable for the mess......not the EU, not Covid.... 110% agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 4:00 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 3:48 PM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 3:42 PM malc d - 2020-12-20 3:28 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 9:33 AM Given that both we and the EU are struggling with coronavirus and that there is no agreement for a non-turbulent end to the Transition Period, would it make sense to extend transition terms (i.e. preseve the status quo) for a period long enough for both sides to have got the virus under proper control? I was thinking of another twelve months. If another transition period is arranged, with Johnsons u-turn record - he may well apply to rejoin the EU by the end of it. ;-) LOL! That would be feckin funny! Imagine if that happened. Pelmet would simply explode. Mind you with a clear majority now in favour of remaining? (lol) Seems to me when Malc got off the fence ;-) ......... He arrived in Narnia aka Barryland :D ....... Just one question if we dont leave on the 31 December will there then be a transition period for you leaving the forum...... Absolutely NOT.......there is NO "extension" for the hypocrite as he's already stated more than once come 31st December and he's leaving the forum. pelmetman - 2020-11-23 8:29 AM I'm only hanging around on here for another 38 days......Then I'll be off B-) ........ Lets see how long the liar keeps to his word before he's back on again either as Pelmetman or under another fm name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 3:42 PM malc d - 2020-12-20 3:28 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 9:33 AM Given that both we and the EU are struggling with coronavirus and that there is no agreement for a non-turbulent end to the Transition Period, would it make sense to extend transition terms (i.e. preseve the status quo) for a period long enough for both sides to have got the virus under proper control? I was thinking of another twelve months. If another transition period is arranged, with Johnsons u-turn record - he may well apply to rejoin the EU by the end of it. ;-) LOL! That would be feckin funny! Imagine if that happened. Pelmet would simply explode. Mind you with a clear majority now in favour of remaining? (lol) Maybe Barry Fake News needs to have a word with that Labour rag The Mirror ... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-referendum-rerun-today-leave-23193684 ... Lordy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-12-20 3:07 PM jumpstart - 2020-12-20 1:54 PM mtravel - 2020-12-20 10:44 AM Growing fear ? At least for those with a few neurons left. It depended on me I would say: for too long you have been a pain in the ass for all of Europe. No gentlemen, too late, even if you wish you cannot. Europe’s ass needs a good kicking as many in it are not happy with how it is going. This is not true at all J/start and you've been completely misled possibly from reading views of some anti-EU (generally far right) opinions. Support has grown stronger. But why would you concern yourself over the EU after voting to leave it? You no longer have any say in what they do and you need to pay attention to sorting the mess Brexiteers have created in this country rather than mithering over what any other country/s is/are doing. You're accountable for the mess......not the EU, not Covid. Get a move on. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html Aren’t anti- eu far fight part of the eu or are you suggesting they be ignored. Hasn’t support grown with the pro- eu groups.. Why should i not concern myself ,we still will be trading with europe. I dont see it as a mess just difficult. Distrust of eu ... https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/eu-uk-brexit-europe-what-next-b1776524.html Not all is well in the House of Cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-12-20 4:49 PM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 3:42 PM malc d - 2020-12-20 3:28 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 9:33 AM Given that both we and the EU are struggling with coronavirus and that there is no agreement for a non-turbulent end to the Transition Period, would it make sense to extend transition terms (i.e. preseve the status quo) for a period long enough for both sides to have got the virus under proper control? I was thinking of another twelve months. If another transition period is arranged, with Johnsons u-turn record - he may well apply to rejoin the EU by the end of it. ;-) LOL! That would be feckin funny! Imagine if that happened. Pelmet would simply explode. Mind you with a clear majority now in favour of remaining? (lol) Maybe Barry Fake News needs to have a word with that Labour rag The Mirror ... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-referendum-rerun-today-leave-23193684 ... Lordy The last major yougov tracker poll had the majority in favour of remaining by 56% to 44% leave and the December what the UK thinks poll 49% remain, 39% leave, 13% dont know. Where is the poll? Where is the data? who took part? Newspaper polls are often inaccurate because they are not secure. Its quite likely this poll was targeted by Brexiteers although to be fair they are not usually that well organised. Still, any of them do not show much of a change. I would have expected the UK to have massively changed its mind by now but it seems many are still prepared to fall for the guff or maybe as it gets nearer the deadline they are desperately clinging to Johnsons coat tails praying that they made the right decision all those years ago I dunno. Either way its kind of immaterial now. I guess they will find out soon enough if they made the right decision or not eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 StuartO - 2020-12-20 1:32 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-20 12:53 PM StuartO - 2020-12-20 12:26 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-20 12:11 PM ............................................. Treaties are merely glorified contracts between consenting legal entities. If both parties are in agreement, the terms can be varied at any time that the treaty is in force, including changing the contractual end-date. And presumably UK Government and the EU can agree to do something mutually beneficial anytime they like, even if it is something that might be otherwise have been somehow illegal. I was just wondering whether there would still be enough willingness on the EU side (because of the impending fishing rights losses for example and the gain in revenue from the UK) by extending rather than going off a cliff on January 1st. Anyway I hope Boris knows what he's doing. I don't see how the bold above might arise. Breaking the terms unilaterally would be illegal in international law (just as it is in the case of a breach of a civil contract in national law). If both sides agree (providing in so doing no other international undertakings are breached) they can do pretty much whatever they choose. All they need do is jointly agree to vary the terms of the original agreement, and then sign on the dotted line. If I understand you correctly you are agreeing with me. Sovereign governments can make agreements about anything, overriding any pre-existing laws of their own or previous agreements between them, as long as they don't agree to conflict with fundamental international obligations, for example as they would if they decided to re-introduce slavery. If you agree with me why can't you just say so? I can Stuart, when I have no reservations. :-) But your bit in bold above referenced illegality, and, as I said, I don't see how the illegality might arise - so for clarity, I thought it worth saying so. That was all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 If we extend then the arguments just continue longer, both sides know their red lines, get it sorted now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-20 1:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-20 12:11 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 9:53 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 9:48 AM It would have made sense back in July Stuart when we had that option and knew just how bad Covid was going to be come the winter but we are truly through the looking glass now. Yes it would still make sense but since when was making sense something that this government or Brexiteers subscribed to. Its them that will suffer the most so lets rip that plaster right off and get it over with. Sadly it's against EU law (lol) (lol) (lol) ............ Oooh the delicious irony >:-) ........ Treaties are merely glorified contracts between consenting legal entities. If both parties are in agreement, the terms can be varied at any time that the treaty is in force, including changing the contractual end-date. Do you really think the EU could renegotiate a contract in just 11 days? 8-) ....... They cant even approve a vaccine in weeks during a Pandemic *-) ........ What a strange question. Who said they had to " renegotiate a contract in just 11 days"? First, we are talking of treaties ("contracts" between countries) and not contracts (civil agreements between private individuals or companies). Second, all they need to do is adjust the expiry date of the treaty to accommodate additional discussion. The talking, and the possible detailed amendments would come later, within the revised expiry date. Why should that be hard? I've extended contracts in less that 30 minutes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 My Government insider says ... https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1374845/Brexit-news-no-deal-uk-eu-trade-talks-david-frost-michel-barnier-boris-johnson ... Just do it FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Just for fun, have a listen to this: https://tinyurl.com/y8ygoosj It is from the World This Weekend, introduced by Johnny Diamond. It is an interview with the assistant high priest of the Conservative Party (AKA Vice Chairman of the 1922 Committee, and Party Board Member) Sir Charles Walker KBE, MP. Go to 19:37 on the time bar. It ends at 23:06. Just listen to what he says, and see what you think. The more I heard, the more I got the giggles. This is his party he is trashing, and his leader (for our sins, our PM) he is accusing of calculatingly allowing parliament to rise before introducing anti-Covid measures - to prevent parliament subjecting the measures to scrutiny. I.e. an undemocratic executive fix. Who does he think chooses the candidates to stand as Conservative MPs? Who does he think chooses the leader of the Conservative party - who if successful in an election, become our PM? Who does he think chooses his cabinet (including his health secretary, who Walker wants to jump under a bus)? Couldn't possibly be the Conservative Party, could it? :-D Despite all that blatant and obvious party responsibility, he wants Hancock to resign to atone for Johnson's errors. No wonder we're in a shambles. Ye Gods!! If you still have the will to live, go on to 23:43 where Diamond begins an interview with the rather unfairly maligned Gordon Brown, and hear him out (ends @ 28:49). He is of course no longer constrained by office, but then, neither is Walker. But what a contrast!! One the one hand calm, reasoned, thoughtful, commentary, on the other a damaging kamikaze rant. What is that saying about engaging brain before opening mouth? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Birdbrain - 2020-12-20 6:58 PM My Government insider says ... https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1374845/Brexit-news-no-deal-uk-eu-trade-talks-david-frost-michel-barnier-boris-johnson ... Just do it FFS https://j.gifs.com/9rvM8Y.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-12-20 6:35 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 1:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-20 12:11 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-20 9:53 AM Barryd999 - 2020-12-20 9:48 AM It would have made sense back in July Stuart when we had that option and knew just how bad Covid was going to be come the winter but we are truly through the looking glass now. Yes it would still make sense but since when was making sense something that this government or Brexiteers subscribed to. Its them that will suffer the most so lets rip that plaster right off and get it over with. Sadly it's against EU law (lol) (lol) (lol) ............ Oooh the delicious irony >:-) ........ Treaties are merely glorified contracts between consenting legal entities. If both parties are in agreement, the terms can be varied at any time that the treaty is in force, including changing the contractual end-date. Do you really think the EU could renegotiate a contract in just 11 days? 8-) ....... They cant even approve a vaccine in weeks during a Pandemic *-) ........ What a strange question. Who said they had to " renegotiate a contract in just 11 days"? First, we are talking of treaties ("contracts" between countries) and not contracts (civil agreements between private individuals or companies). Second, all they need to do is adjust the expiry date of the treaty to accommodate additional discussion. The talking, and the possible detailed amendments would come later, within the revised expiry date. Why should that be hard? I've extended contracts in less that 30 minutes! So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) .......... https://daystobrexit.co.uk/ (lol) (lol) (lol) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:52 AM........................So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) ................... Dave, as I already said, they don't need to. All they need to do is agree to change the closing date. Then they can continue negotiating in the additional time gained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 10:22 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:52 AM........................So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) ................... Dave, as I already said, they don't need to. All they need to do is agree to change the closing date. Then they can continue negotiating in the additional time gained. Nope...........They need to change EU law to stop the transition period from ending in 10 days time >:-) ........ I now expect the Yackity Yacking to carry on even after the transition period has ended :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-21 11:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 10:22 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:52 AM........................So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) ................... Dave, as I already said, they don't need to. All they need to do is agree to change the closing date. Then they can continue negotiating in the additional time gained. Nope...........They need to change EU law to stop the transition period from ending in 10 days time >:-) ........ I now expect the Yackity Yacking to carry on even after the transition period has ended :D ........ But that is exactly what I said. They just need to change the date. The law says the agreement expires at a particular date. The law doesn't need changing, just the date the law points to. It needs agreement of the 27, which may be difficult, but the negotiations could then continue within the extended transition period. You are probably right that discussions will continue after transition ends, but those will be discussions with UK as a "third country", not as a transitional member. There are pros and cons to both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 2:18 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 11:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 10:22 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:52 AM........................So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) ................... Dave, as I already said, they don't need to. All they need to do is agree to change the closing date. Then they can continue negotiating in the additional time gained. Nope...........They need to change EU law to stop the transition period from ending in 10 days time >:-) ........ I now expect the Yackity Yacking to carry on even after the transition period has ended :D ........ But that is exactly what I said. They just need to change the date. The law says the agreement expires at a particular date. The law doesn't need changing, just the date the law points to. It needs agreement of the 27, which may be difficult, but the negotiations could then continue within the extended transition period. You are probably right that discussions will continue after transition ends, but those will be discussions with UK as a "third country", not as a transitional member. There are pros and cons to both. So do you think the 27 will agree to change the date within the next 10 days? ;-) ........ Or are you just grasping at Loser straws? :D .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-12-21 2:40 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 2:18 PM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 11:38 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-12-21 10:22 AM pelmetman - 2020-12-21 8:52 AM........................So do you think the 27 EU contries can renegotiate a contract in just 10 days? >:-) ................... Dave, as I already said, they don't need to. All they need to do is agree to change the closing date. Then they can continue negotiating in the additional time gained. Nope...........They need to change EU law to stop the transition period from ending in 10 days time >:-) ........ I now expect the Yackity Yacking to carry on even after the transition period has ended :D ........ But that is exactly what I said. They just need to change the date. The law says the agreement expires at a particular date. The law doesn't need changing, just the date the law points to. It needs agreement of the 27, which may be difficult, but the negotiations could then continue within the extended transition period. You are probably right that discussions will continue after transition ends, but those will be discussions with UK as a "third country", not as a transitional member. There are pros and cons to both. So do you think the 27 will agree to change the date within the next 10 days? ;-) ........ Or are you just grasping at Loser straws? :D .......... I have no idea, as I have no idea whether the UK government will ask them to do so. I would not expect the EU to publicly volunteer to do so. My point is that if asked, they would not have to renegotiate anything, or to change laws, to enable the discussions to continue: only to agree to a change of date - which is hardly complicated - though getting all 27 to agree to that change might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/eu-brexit-transition-period-boris-johnson They have discussed it. Boris doesn't want it extended which given the current circumstances is a bit nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 They blocked the UK now because they where honest about the mutation first. And well comunicated. And of course is it in any EU country. And the mutation is minimum compared to the flu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Not sure what the panic about a virus mutation is...it’s what virus’s do. Over population of hospitals is the biggest problem. Several countries in Europe have had mutations of covid throughout the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 jumpstart - 2020-12-21 4:55 PM Not sure what the panic about a virus mutation is...it’s what virus’s do. Over population of hospitals is the biggest problem. Several countries in Europe have had mutations of covid throughout the year. Because its 70% more infectious apparently. January is the worse month for the NHS anyway so a Covid strain thats 70% more infectious running rife in the most densely populated region of the UK is not good news for the NHS, peoples lives and the economy. Its a perfect storm when you add in the chaos at our ports and the big one on January the 1st, BREXIT! Some of us predicted this perfect storm when many were suggesting a transition period extension many months ago when one was offered to us but the Brexiteers just cried Project fear again and that we were just trying to stop Brexit etc. One things for sure if I was a Brexiteer living in piss soaked Kent right now I would be saying to myself "WTF have I done?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Sky News: COVID-19: New strain found in Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Australia and Gibraltar. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-new-strain-found-in-denmark-netherlands-and-australia-says-who-12169262 Ooops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 As regards extending the transition period that was just asked to Johnson at his briefing and he just told the entire nation that we will be absolutely fine on WTO rules, no problem at all apparently. He couldnt use the term Australian Rules to disguise "no deal" as Peston beat him to it and rubbished it before he could use it. Thats all Dandy then. After nearly five years of being told leaving without a deal would be a disaster apparently it wont be at all even now, right in the middle of the worst wave of a pandemic in living memory. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 The earliest examples of the new strain were apparently picked up in late September, but it was not then clear whether the variant had gained any worrying characteristics as a consequence. Only later, after the incidence of the variant began to expand, was it suspected of having become more virulent than others. This is the central problem that the government seems reluctant to face up to. All indicators are trailing indicators, which means that the genie is out of the bottle before it is identified. They seem to reject acting on intelligent forecasts, which would allow them to get ahead of the curve, in case the forecast event doesn't materialise. This is justified on the ground that acting in anticipation could mean committing to unnecessary expenditure, and they prefer "evidence-based" decision making. That may be fine when the danger is real and present, but when the indications lag the events themselves, the proverbial horse is three counties away and still galloping before the open stable door is spotted. This trait is dangerously coupled with false optimism, so that the outcomes for actions they do take are invariably over claimed to justify the action, but the eventual outcomes achieve far less than claimed. This is corrosive for public confidence, leading to diminishing compliance. The net result is that when the problem is finally recognised it is far greater and more difficult to control, leading to the eventual controls being more costly, and disruptive, than early and firm intervention. It is government by cognitive dissonance, where the incumbents reject reason in favour of instinct, because their libertarian instincts tell them that accepting reason and acting early is not what libertarians do, and the idea of acting on reason brings into question their libertarian credentials. It exemplifies that definition of madness that carries on repeating the same action in the hope of a different outcome. They are a collective of similar character, which is, I assume why Jonson chose them. Because they wouldn't argue with him over what to do which, when the chose his cabinet, was to "get Brexit done". What he needs to do is to replace a few of the weaker members with people who are of a different mindset, who will argue for alternative strategies, and argue hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.