2009 Hobby motorhome / Transit

[gassygassy]

........now I'll have to take it all apart again and trace the wiring. When I was grovelling in the under-seat box I was convinced the battery charger was connected to the engine battery, which was next to it, and I assumed it would also be connected to the leisure battery. I can see the logic, that the mains powered battery charger should first be connected to the leisure battery, then the engine battery as well. I would like to think that the designers would incorporate a dual-charging regime with the first burst of charge going to the leisure battery and a smaller charge to the engine battery. Logic to me would be that the place to put a leisure battery charger would be next to the leisure battery. I'll have to investigate. I think I just assumed it was charging the engine battery because the cables from the charger used the same type of thick blue wire as was connected to the adjacent engine battery. Ah well, there is precious little else we can do if we are not allowed out, I may as well take it all apart and draw my own wiring diagram and keep it with the camper for when I forget. Next week.

[Robinhood]

...you're overthinking it!

 

The mains charger "parallel charges" both the vehicle and habitation batteries. It is first connected to the distribution box, (with all the fuses in it) where connections are then made to both batteries, and the charge directed to the vehicle battery is electronically limited to a maximum of 2A (a maintenance trickle-charge).

 

As I understand it you've now:

 

i) confirmed that the vehicle battery is receiving that trickle charge.

ii) confirmed that the vehicle battery wasn't vented, and remedied this.

iii) tightened some of the charger connections.

iv)confirmed that the charger is set to Pb, not Gel.

 

All that's good, but to finish things off, it has been suggested that you also:

 

i) check that the habitation (Duracell) battery is standard lead/acid or EFB. You haven't posted the battery model, but it appears likely that it is so. If so, the charging regime is set correctly. (If not, it would be best to update on here).

ii) If the habitation battery is as above, then it should (probably) be vented. It would be best to check that.

 

And that should be enough.

 

(It is common to see the electrics installed under one or other of the front seats (either in the Transit or the Ducato) as it makes use of the space. Not only that, it ensures short cable runs as it is also then common to install the habitation battery(ies) under the opposite front seat).

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

For leisure-vehicle manufacturers an attraction of CBE’s electrical system ‘kits’ is their modularity and simplicity of installation.

 

In his posting of 26 December 2020 10:03 PM above, Robinhood provided a link to a CBE Instructions Manual for a generic ‘kit’ relating to PC-100 and PC-200 control panels and the DS-300 Distribution Box.

 

This Manual does not provide in-depth advice on CBE battery-chargers (this is given in different documents and the CB-522 charger Manual can be viewed on the following link)

 

https://docplayer.net/22404292-Cb-522-istruzioni-d-uso-instructions-manual-gebrauchsanweisungen-instructions-d-emploi.html

 

but the PC-100/PC-200/DS-300 Manual does include a schematic showing how the 12V batteries, control-panel and fresh/waste water-tank sensors are connected to the DS-300 Distribution Box. It will be apparent that the only piece of equipment not connected to the DS-300 unit is a Circuit Breaker/Consumer Unit

 

https://www.rainbow-conversions.co.uk/cbe-motorhome-caravan/circuit-breaker--consumer-unit-317-p.html

 

that takes input from an external 230V power-supply and outputs 230V power to the battery-charger.

 

(I’ve copied the schematic below, though I’m not sure how readable it will be.)

[Derek Uzzell]

Besides checking whether the "soooperdooper sooper expensive Duracell branded” leisure battery in the Hobby is ordinary wet-acid type or something else, it would be worth establishing exactly which Duracell battery it is.

 

I notice that Banner/Duracell batteries appear in the NCC Verified Battery Scheme tables (Class B)

 

https://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Leisure%20Battery%20Web%20version%20October%202020.pdf

 

and (as there’s a dimensional limit as to what can be fitted into a Transit Mk 7’s cab-seat base) I’m guessing that Andrew bought a pair of DL 100 batteries 18 months ago.

 

https://www.duracell-automotive.com/en/Products/Batteries-for-hobby-and-leisure/63-DL-100

 

(DL batteries should be easily identifiable by their blue top.)

 

As I touched on above, I’m pretty sure the DL 100 battery is a re-labelled Banner “Energy Bull” 95751

 

https://www.bannerbatterien.com/en-gb/Products/Starter-Batteries/Energy-Bull/226-957-51

 

that is NOT a ‘sealed’ battery (and its cell-cap screws can be hellish hard to unscrew) should be vented if under a cab seat, and has something of a reputation for electrolyte loss (ie. the electrolyte-level needs a careful eye kept on it.) However, the Duracell DL 100 is not hyper-expensive (nor is Banner’s 95751) at around £107, so I wasn’t sure what Andrew had bought in 2019.

[gassygassy]

Thank you both Derek and Robinhood. That's very useful and helpful. The CBE522 is indeed next to the fused distribution box under the driver's seat. I'll have to drink a few whiskys tomorrow to antifreeze my blood so it doesn't freeze, and go and get the details of the Duracell. I've left the camper on EHU so I'll see what the engine battery voltage is.

By the way, when removing the drivers seat I found a red plastic capped thing that looks like some sort of terminal block at the outside the drivers seat base, on the left hand side right at the back of the base of the seat. It has a flip-off cap, is a sizeable red plastic 'box' with three unused studs inside it. Do you know what that is for? The studs may well be connected to some wiring inside the engine battery compartment but I didn't know it was there when I removed the seat otherwise I would have investigated it.

 

Thinks: if one of those fuses goes, it will be a bit of an operation to change it, won't it? Forceps? Extra long nosed pliers?

[Derek Uzzell]

I think the “red plastic capped thing” at the outside of the driver’s seat base is probably a “customer connection points” unit. This was primarily intended for when the Ford Transit was factory-fitted with twin batteries beneath the driver’s seat - one battery dedicated to engine starting and the other to power ‘auxiliary’ services (See attached image below).

 

Although the Transit Mk 7 chassis that Hobby chose to build on did not have the twin-battery set-up, this 2016 Ford Transit Forum discussion

 

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=168399

 

suggests that all Transit Mk 7 vehicles (2006-2014) may have had this terminal-block connector unit fitted as standard, even when there was only a starter-battery beneath the driver’s seat. This would also explain why, on your Hobby, the unit’s three studs apparently have no cables connected to them.

 

(Although the image indicates that the Customer Connection Points feature does not apply to “Camper Vehicles”, the Transit front-wheel-drive platform-cab chassis used by Hobby isn’t a ‘proper’ camper chassis, just a panel-van with its sides, top and rear doors sawn off.)

[gassygassy]

I am truly in awe of your expertise at digging out information, Derek. If that customer connection point is connected to the engine battery it would make a very easy and out-of-the-way connecting and mounting point for a simple LED voltmeter in case you want to take an occasional glance at the battery voltage. I wouldn't want one on the dashboard, you don't need to have it thrust in your face all the time but for example in the winter if you didn't want to keep the battery/ies on constant charge you could just occasionally take a looksee. I think that tbe best way to treat an unused battery is to allow it to discharge to say 12.5v and once a month boost it back up. The base vehicle will of course be draining it slowly.

 

I know about the chassis bit. My last motorhome was a Nuevo which has the whole chassis, which makes the whole thing significantly higher. Presumably stronger as well, if you are Top Gear thrashing it across the Sahara but I don't think that matters in Europe. In my motorhoming life I have often wondered if somewhere there is a big pile of chopped-off roofs and doors and bodies. However, since I worked on a computer cabling installation at Vauxhall Motors in Luton I would now think that the motorhome converters order a run of platform cabs, or chassis cabs, or vans-with-no-roof, or vans-with-no-rear-doors to order. They can make each vehicle coming down the line individual, different to the previous one and different to the next one. Once in Luton a fork-lift truck drove over some co-ax cable (what it was doing on the ground, I don't know! Nothing to do with me.). The cable was carrying data to the production line that sent components to the right fitment point. Crushing the cable distorted the data so that diesel engines started arriving at SRi bodies, estate lids to saloon cars and so on. Panic broke out. I expect though that the small van converters have to take whole vans and chop the roofs off, and presumably fill skips to take to scrap yards. I don't know why A/S use chassis cabs, I would have thought that a strong floor on a panel van base would be stiff enough.

[Derek Uzzell]

I’m not sure when the Transit part of your 2009 Hobby was manufactured in Ford’s Turkish factory, but Page 111 of this Transit Owner’s Manual (Vehicles built from 06/10/2008 to 19/07/2009)

 

https://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/ENUSA_CG3527_TRN_og_200807.pdf

 

shows the 'pre-fuse box' that’s inside the driver-seat base and carries three 60A fuses for the external Customer Connection points. I don’t think there’s anything in the Manual (though I haven’t looked too hard) describing what’s on the outside of the seat-base opposite the internal connection points, nor do I know whether the connection points become ‘live’ if a Transit does not have the twin-batteries arrangement.

 

Auto-Sleepers never built on FWD Transits - hence all A-S Transit-based coachbuilt motorhomes have a ’traditional’ RWD light-truck ladder-frame chassis. In 2004 Ford made available to motorhome converters a FWD platform-cab chassis that (as I said above) was essentially a Transit FWD panel-van with most of its steel bodywork missing. This wasn’t the greatest of chassis for coachbult motorhome production in my opinion and was eventually succeeded by a purpose-designed ‘camping-car’ chassis (FWD-only) similar in principle to the Boxer/Ducato/Relays specialised chassis that had been available to converters since 2006. But Hobby never built on the later Transit chassis.

 

If your 2009 Hobby is like my 2005 HobbyT-600FC equivalent and has a spare-wheel mounted underneath, I strongly suggest you check how easy it is to lower/raise that wheel. It was impossible on my Hobby until I fabricated a tool and, even then, it was a challenge.

[gassygassy]

I have now almost thawed out from investigating the leisure battery. It is a PB (presumably lead acid) Duracell Advanced DA100 mfd by Banner. " Extend life and performance" 12v 100 AH, cranking power 820A (EN) 860A (SAE). It has a vent spridget (What's the name of the vent hole bit of plastic?) but no tube, and no hole in the floor for one to go through, so it must have been like that from the factory. I'll have to dig around and drill a hole to the outside air, i.e. not drill a hole only for it to go ito a chassis box section!

 

Voltages: I disconnected it from EHU and after 5 minutes I pressed the buttons on the control panel. You will recall there are four LEDs corresponding to voltages, water levels etc. The engine battery registered two green ones (the bottom LED is red I think, to indicate no reading) and the leisure battery showed three, i.e. 'full'. I measured the voltages as 12.53 for the engine and 12.86 for the leisure battery.

 

I have just noticed that your 640F is the same as one we had. When I got rid of the hardly-ever-working 600F I swapped it for a 640. A useful mod I did to that was to re-plumb the kitchen sink drain. Do you find it slow to drain? They only use I think 25 mm drain pipe but I removed some of the galley woodwork and found it goes through about seven 90 degree bends, each of which not only slows down the water flow but eases the trapping of bits of food etc. I re-plumbed it with regualr domestic 32mm pipe which reduced the 90 degree bends to 3 or 4 and it drained faster than a fast thing, with a lovely schluuurrrp. I couldn't figure out why the manufacturer would use more components than were necessary and bend it round the houses when it could go in a straight line from under the sink floor directly to the waste tank. One difficulty of course is that there isn't much fall because of the distance, which makes it all the more important to have as straight a run as possible. In resistance terms, a 90 degree plumbing joint has the same flow resistance as a metre of straight pipe. If you are interested I can try and recall exactly how I did it. I nearly wrote an article on how to do it for MMM but I thought they wouldn't like an article criticising one of their major advertisers - but that goes for every make I have modified!

Out of interest does your 640 have a window next to the bed that comes all the way down to the mattress? That was one thing that irritated us, it would be easy when moving about in bed to crunch the concertina blind with a knee. I got quite adept at undoing the window frame and folding the blind back into shape and feeding it into its channel. I have seen 640s for sale with a smaller window higher up which would prevent this happenning.

 

Spare wheel: My Hobby didn't come with a spare wheel so I got a rubbish one, just legal, off ebay and it is kept under the bed inside. However there is a spare wheel cradle attaching point under the chassis. I removed the spare wheel kit from a Fiat chassis I had (I can't remember which one! because I thought it might come in useful. I'll see if I can fit it to the Transit. The Fiat kit has a plate that fits through the wheel centre, a chain running from the plate up to a pivot / pulley point and a windy mechanism to retract the chain into a holder. Or it might be a wire cable, I can't remember. It will be a project for me once the ice melts. I think the SEVEL chassis had a very similar slotted bracket fixed to the chassis as the Transit does. The extra room under the bed will come in handy.

I got two new headlights for the Hobby because the originals were getting cloudy. The new ones are made in BongoBongo land somewhere and only one of them operates the levelling motor correctly. That is to say the motors from the original lights are fine, but something in the headlamp isn't working properly. After I fitted them I machine-polished the original cloudy ones and they have come up like new, so that was a waste of money buying new ones. Grrr. Now I have done an oil-and-filter service I have got new alternator and steering pump belts, only to find that Ford save 0.000000000001p on each one they build by not providing any tensioning pulley. They are called stretchy belts, you just cut / force the belt off and force the new ones over the pulleys. This must put an enormous strain on the bearings but I guess that is all part of the strategy to sell more ancilliaries.

[Robinhood]

gassygassy - 2020-12-31 1:39 PM

 

I have now almost thawed out from investigating the leisure battery. It is a PB (presumably lead acid) Duracell Advanced DA100 mfd by Banner. " Extend life and performance" 12v 100 AH, cranking power 820A (EN) 860A (SAE). It has a vent spridget (What's the name of the vent hole bit of plastic?) but no tube, and no hole in the floor for one to go through, so it must have been like that from the factory. I'll have to dig around and drill a hole to the outside air, i.e. not drill a hole only for it to go ito a chassis box section!

I'm not convinced that that is an ideal leisure battery (though, if it is new(ish) neither would I choose to change it until/unless there are issues)

 

It is unlikely that there will be a vent hole in the floor in the leisure battery location; Hobby fitted that series with gel batteries from the factory, and no venting was required.

 

A word of warning; if the battery is of Banner manufacture, it may have a proprietary-sized vent outlet, which needs a less than common vent adapter. Don't assume this is the case, but this (for reference only) provides some background.

 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/battery-leads-terminals/vent-pipes/vent-tube/

 

On the good news front, it looks like your charger is set to the correct regime.

[gassygassy]

I got the battery from Mullacott caravan and motorhome centre / RV Installations in Somerset. I had a panel van and ordered an awning from them at the NEC. Then before they got it in, I changed the campervan and asked if they could credit me instead of asking for a refund. After all I had ordered it, and it wasn't their fault that I didn't want it any more. I went for a 100W solar panel, the Victron Controller and two of these Duracell batteries which they said are the best leisure batteries you can get short of having a lithium battery. This battery does come with its vent spigot so I will only have to add a tube down through the floor.

When I saw the 'cranking voltage' wording on the batteries I did wonder if they were a specific leisure battery but it does say engine or leisure battery and RV Installations sounded as if they know what they are talking about, and seeing their workshop and some jobs they were doing on campers I was confident they are competent. When I said I was a gas man they showed me an under-floor gas tank installation that someone had done. Not them, they assured me. The fitter had put it in a place which required the exhaust pipe to be deformed by the use of a big hammer to provide any clearance between it and the tank, also the high pressure fill pipe was touching the exhaust, insulated by some wrapping round of silver insulating material. They were in the process of removing the tank, they make up mounting frames for these tanks, and were going to fit it properly.

Anyway that's where the battery came from and although it might not be a dedicated leisure battery I am confident it will do. By the way when the sun was shining this morning the Victron was flashing its blue LED so that is what makes me think it is delivering a charge even under the motorhome cover.

 

[Keithl]

gassygassy - 2020-12-31 2:57 PM

By the way when the sun was shining this morning the Victron was flashing its blue LED so that is what makes me think it is delivering a charge even under the motorhome cover.

From a previous post...

mikefitz - 2020-12-29 10:02 AM

The blue flash indicates no solar input to the controller, steady blue indicates bulk charge. A solar panel with a semi transparent cover is not going to deliver any meaningful energy.

Mike

[gassygassy]

I've drilled a hole and fitted the vent tube for the leisure battery. RV Insatllations did fit the battery properly and when I removed it from the van I kept the spigot and tube so its all installed properly now. With EHU the LB voltage was 13.5.

[gassygassy]

Keithl - 2020-12-31 3:11 PM

 

gassygassy - 2020-12-31 2:57 PM

By the way when the sun was shining this morning the Victron was flashing its blue LED so that is what makes me think it is delivering a charge even under the motorhome cover.

From a previous post...

mikefitz - 2020-12-29 10:02 AM

The blue flash indicates no solar input to the controller, steady blue indicates bulk charge. A solar panel with a semi transparent cover is not going to deliver any meaningful energy.

Mike

OOPS sorry. I'll download the instructions and read them. :$

[Derek Uzzell]

I can’t find anything to suggest that Duracell’s DA100 battery is intended for other than engine-starting duties as indicated on the Technical Data Sheet and Type List Starter Batteries files that can be downloaded from this link.

 

https://www.duracell-automotive.com/en/Products/Car-batteries/Duracell-Advanced/40-DA-100

 

It’s sometimes been suggested on this forum that the same dual-purpose (marine & leisure) battery be chosen for starter and leisure purposes for Boxer/Ducato/Relay X250/X290 motorhomes built from mid 2006 onwards. The thinking was that this would permit the batteries to be ‘rotated’ (as histotically was done with wheels to even out tyre wear) or to be swapped if the starter-battery failed. But that idea is only valid if the dimensions of the batteries permit them to be interchanged and that’s not really a realistic option for a Transit Mk 6 or Mk 7 that needs a short, low starter battery. Anyway, the DA100 is a ‘non-maintanable’ (fit and forget until it dies) battery, so you won’t need to be concerned about checking the electrolyte-level as that’s not possible.

 

When the Rapido 640F/B models were introduced in late-2013 they were built on a Fiat Ducato X250 base and had the massive ‘exhibitionist’ window alongside the rear bed., and the windows themselves were caravan-style Polyplastic units. When the Ducato X290 ‘facelift’ became available in 2014, the Polyplastic windows were dropped and much more upmarket Dometic units used instead. I wouldn’t have bought the X250 640F version and, if I lived in France, I would have chosen the Florium 640 equivalent rather than the Rapido X290 640F.

 

My 640F’s sink, washbasin and shower drain adequately, but there were interior design differences between the X250 and X290 Rapido 640s and those changes might have improved matters.