jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-03-01 10:03 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-01 8:30 AM CurtainRaiser - 2021-03-01 8:24 AM Whole life environmental costs https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel-cars-make-hundreds-of-times-more-waste-than-electric-cars?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other Ah yes but blue gas can be used in domestic boilers as well as cars trucks busses motorhomes, without scrapping every single boiler in the country and all the radiators. Blue gas is hydrogen? No it can't be used dometic boilers, we would also need all the gas distribution networks replaced. Blue gas is when you split natural gas into Hydrogen and H2O. Aa i understand it boilers can be converted and same gas lines used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/hydrogen-boilers-alternative-gas-central-heating Existing systems can be used so less wastage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 With adaption even existing cars can run on it except Diesels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-01 10:20 AM https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/hydrogen-boilers-alternative-gas-central-heating Existing systems can be used so less wastage. A bit of a less biased view. https://great-home.co.uk/the-future-of-gas-boilers-natural-gas-to-hydrogen-conversion/ You need a total conversion of a regional network - you cannot have a combined system. And no you cant convert an existing boiler easily, that is why manufacturers are designing new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-03-01 10:57 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-01 10:20 AM https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/articles/hydrogen-boilers-alternative-gas-central-heating Existing systems can be used so less wastage. A bit of a less biased view. https://great-home.co.uk/the-future-of-gas-boilers-natural-gas-to-hydrogen-conversion/ You need a total conversion of a regional network - you cannot have a combined system. And no you cant convert an existing boiler easily, that is why manufacturers are designing new ones. From your link.... The Future Of Gas Boilers: Natural Gas To Hydrogen Conversion February 5, 2020 by Jon Davies 2 Comments Recent talk of a net zero target for UK carbon emissions by 2050 has put domestic space and water heating back in the spotlight. Gas boilers are likely to be banned in new homes built after 2025, with a combination of heat pumps, better insulation and ventilation reducing the demand for heating energy. However, the gas industry is now responding to the threat to their business with innovative technology and proposals to use 100% hydrogen gas boilers. This provides an alternative zero carbon solution for both new homes and the millions of existing homes that currently use a gas boiler for heating (85% of UK households). Older homes are a challenge to decarbonise as many are not suitable for heat pump technology without significant spend, of the order of £20,000 – £30,000 per home. worcester bosch hydrogen boiler prototype Prototype Hydrogen Boiler from Worcester Bosch Image courtesy of Worcester Bosch As a result of manufacturers efforts, a new generation of gas boilers could soon be with us that can be used both with 100% hydrogen and natural gas (which is primarily methane, CH4). Assuming the natural gas network switches over to pure hydrogen in the 2030s and 2040s then potentially most gas boilers could be switched to using the new fuel with a simple adjustment to reconfigure it (maybe even automatically in some cases). One of the UK’s leading boiler manufacturers. Worcester Bosch, has recently presented a prototype hydrogen boiler which could be used with existing central heating systems to heat homes whenever the switch to hydrogen occurs (See press release 14 Jan 2020: https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/about/news/making-essential-steps-towards-a-hydrogen-fuelled-future). BDR Thermea hydrogen boiler Image courtesy of BDR Thermea BDR Thermea, owners of Baxi boilers have also been active in developing a hydrogen boiler solution (See press release 25 June 2019: https://www.bdrthermeagroup.com/en/news/hydrogen). They also mention one of the other attractions of converting the gas network to hydrogen: the ability to operate small scale hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity for use in the home. With access to a hydrogen supply there is potentially no need to have an electricity grid connection. One to watch in coming decades. There are several technical challenges that manufacturers will need to overcome over the next few years. These include: Gas tightness: Hydrogen is a smaller molecule than natural gas (methane) so small changes to the way pipes are manufactured and sealed may be needed to maintain current gas leakage rates. Flame detection: Hydrogen burns with a near invisible flame so boilers designs will need other ways of detecting that the flame is actually burning. That could be by detecting its ultra-violet (UV) emissions. Condensate: Modern condensing boilers already produce condensate (water) but hydrogen boilers produce a greater volume, and this will need to be allowed for within new designs. There will no doubt be other minor design tweaks to allow effective and efficient use of both natural gas and hydrogen, but boiler manufacturers sound increasingly confident that they can deliver the required products. In the meantime, work is going on within the gas grid to replace old cast iron gas mains with polythene pipe. This would allow every single one of the country’s gas pipes to carry hydrogen rather than natural gas. So all doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Yes, but its a new boiler to work with your existing CH system, you cannot convert the boiler to run on hydrogen. And by the sounds of it the pipes will need redoing for the smaller molecule. All doable - you probably went through the switch from town gas to natural gas? But that was all in the days of nationalised infrastructure and it was more easily coordinated, now thanks to Maggie and Sid it is a fragmented supply. This is a interesting overview https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/760508/hydrogen-logistics.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 Is it any harder than a new electrical grid and all the distribution. At least vehicles can use Hydrogen as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 Reuters UK: Britain's National Grid warns of tight electricity supply this week. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-electricity/britains-national-grid-warns-of-tight-electricity-supply-this-week-idUSKBN2AT2JW?feedType=mktg&feedName=ukDomestic&WT.mc_id=Partner-Google Pheu...thank goodness we dont have too many electric cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 A few years ago when Vauxhall was GM they brought out the Vauxhall Ampera / Chevrolet (I think) Volt which was battery/electric powered but had a small engine tuned solely to recharge the batteries. It didn't catch on, maybe it was ahead of it's time, and was axed but maybe now might be the right time for a PHEV / range extender? There maybe a few - BMW i3 for one - but maybe the price of all that techno gubbins is an issue, not that I personally would evrr buy another BMW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-01 4:31 PM Reuters UK: Britain's National Grid warns of tight electricity supply this week. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-electricity/britains-national-grid-warns-of-tight-electricity-supply-this-week-idUSKBN2AT2JW?feedType=mktg&feedName=ukDomestic&WT.mc_id=Partner-Google Pheu...thank goodness we dont have too many electric cars. Well at least we are not yet totally reliant on paying for everything, and banking, electronically. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-01 4:31 PM Reuters UK: Britain's National Grid warns of tight electricity supply this week. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-electricity/britains-national-grid-warns-of-tight-electricity-supply-this-week-idUSKBN2AT2JW?feedType=mktg&feedName=ukDomestic&WT.mc_id=Partner-Google Pheu...thank goodness we dont have too many electric cars. For the few that have V2G, that's not a problem at all, this is what we need to be considering, not a car that spends 95% of it's time doing SFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-01 4:31 PM Reuters UK: Britain's National Grid warns of tight electricity supply this week. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-electricity/britains-national-grid-warns-of-tight-electricity-supply-this-week-idUSKBN2AT2JW?feedType=mktg&feedName=ukDomestic&WT.mc_id=Partner-Google Pheu...thank goodness we dont have too many electric cars. Not affect those with a Tesla, plugged into the Powerwall in the house gives another few hours electric in the event of a power cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. That's why I'm ensuring our house is not solely dependent on lecci when we do our renovations ;-) ........ By making sure that we have fossil fuel backups for cooking and heating B-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/are-fuel-cell-generators-the-future-for-rvs/8540128/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-03-03 8:33 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. That's why I'm ensuring our house is not solely dependent on lecci when we do our renovations ;-) ........ By making sure that we have fossil fuel backups for cooking and heating B-) ......... When BEV's sort their act out, it's not a problem, as I've posted before, a car spends 95% of it's time doing SFA, plug it in to your house and it becomes a back up if there's a power cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. Here's the interesting thing, Most of the stuff used in batteries is mined in Australia, now go and ask an Ozzy where they have most problems with polution, nope it's not the mines, it oil and coal. Now lets consider that patch of flowers, this is what 'we' condone so that we can drive around to our hearts content, in Canada hundreds of square miles of forest has been cut down and strip mined for tar extraction, the environmental damage of that one operation alone outstrips every mining operation to do with BEV's. Then lets look at Deepwater Horizon, that one incident outstrips all the polution from mining for BEV's. Did you know in the US alone the electricity used just to pump up oil with 'nodding donkey's' , is enough to run 19m BEV's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-03-03 8:33 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. That's why I'm ensuring our house is not solely dependent on lecci when we do our renovations ;-) ........ By making sure that we have fossil fuel backups for cooking and heating B-) ......... Gas, oil, wood or coal? Or just your own hot air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 colin - 2021-03-03 11:26 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. Here's the interesting thing, Most of the stuff used in batteries is mined in Australia, now go and ask an Ozzy where they have most problems with polution, nope it's not the mines, it oil and coal. Now lets consider that patch of flowers, this is what 'we' condone so that we can drive around to our hearts content, in Canada hundreds of square miles of forest has been cut down and strip mined for tar extraction, the environmental damage of that one operation alone outstrips every mining operation to do with BEV's. Then lets look at Deepwater Horizon, that one incident outstrips all the polution from mining for BEV's. Did you know in the US alone the electricity used just to pump up oil with 'nodding donkey's' , is enough to run 19m BEV's! So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-03 12:38 PM colin - 2021-03-03 11:26 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. Here's the interesting thing, Most of the stuff used in batteries is mined in Australia, now go and ask an Ozzy where they have most problems with polution, nope it's not the mines, it oil and coal. Now lets consider that patch of flowers, this is what 'we' condone so that we can drive around to our hearts content, in Canada hundreds of square miles of forest has been cut down and strip mined for tar extraction, the environmental damage of that one operation alone outstrips every mining operation to do with BEV's. Then lets look at Deepwater Horizon, that one incident outstrips all the polution from mining for BEV's. Did you know in the US alone the electricity used just to pump up oil with 'nodding donkey's' , is enough to run 19m BEV's! So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. And how are you going to separate out the hydrogen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 jumpstart - 2021-03-03 12:38 PM So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. They mine it, and at the moment they have masses of it that the Chinese are refusing to take, IIRC some ships have been sitting off the Chinese coast for months. I bet they are taking the Lithium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/holyhead-hydrogen-hub-near-5m-19943505 Hydrogen investment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 colin - 2021-03-03 12:50 PM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 12:38 PM So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. They mine it, and at the moment they have masses of it that the Chinese are refusing to take, IIRC some ships have been sitting off the Chinese coast for months. I bet they are taking the Lithium. It's oil. https://shippingwatch.com/carriers/Tanker/article12183174.ece https://safety4sea.com/oil-tankers-line-up-off-china-amid-rebound-in-fuel-demand/ We do the same https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/reason-flotilla-huge-tankers-can-18160434 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Bulletguy - 2021-03-03 1:43 PM colin - 2021-03-03 12:50 PM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 12:38 PM So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. They mine it, and at the moment they have masses of it that the Chinese are refusing to take, IIRC some ships have been sitting off the Chinese coast for months. I bet they are taking the Lithium. It's oil. https://shippingwatch.com/carriers/Tanker/article12183174.ece https://safety4sea.com/oil-tankers-line-up-off-china-amid-rebound-in-fuel-demand/ We do the same https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/reason-flotilla-huge-tankers-can-18160434 Whilst it may be oil as well, one of the biggest problems has been coal, https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jan/07/australian-coal-shipments-to-china-at-standstill-amid-unresolved-trade-tensions And that's because Australia criticised the Chinese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 3, 2021 Author Share Posted March 3, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-03-03 12:48 PM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 12:38 PM colin - 2021-03-03 11:26 AM jumpstart - 2021-03-03 8:23 AM Al Jazeera English: Race for EV batteries pits conservationists against green energy. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/3/3/race-for-ev-batteries-pits-conservationists-against-green-energy This will be the problem with mining , everywhere. Here's the interesting thing, Most of the stuff used in batteries is mined in Australia, now go and ask an Ozzy where they have most problems with polution, nope it's not the mines, it oil and coal. Now lets consider that patch of flowers, this is what 'we' condone so that we can drive around to our hearts content, in Canada hundreds of square miles of forest has been cut down and strip mined for tar extraction, the environmental damage of that one operation alone outstrips every mining operation to do with BEV's. Then lets look at Deepwater Horizon, that one incident outstrips all the polution from mining for BEV's. Did you know in the US alone the electricity used just to pump up oil with 'nodding donkey's' , is enough to run 19m BEV's! So how do the Aussie’s get their coal. Hydrogen is a good alternative to more and more mining of lithium. And how are you going to separate out the hydrogen? https://www.power-technology.com/features/out-of-the-blue-making-fuel-from-air-and-sunlight/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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