Warning to prospective Hymer owners

[mikejkay]

Now that warmer weather has arrived I am finaly tackling the corrosion damage to the roof of my 2016 Hymer. Photos attached.

 

Some may recall my previous posts on this subject. To summarise, my flexible solar panels, supplied amd fitted by Travelworld when the van was new, failed. They had been fitted using a few blobs of mastic between 0.5mm and 2mm in thickness. This allowed water to be trapped betweem the panel and the roof of the van. The trapped water caused corrosion of the alluminium roof skin.

 

Travelworld claimed that the panels had been installed correctly and washed their hands of the matter. This despite not following the fitting instruction provided by the manufacturer (a copy of which I have). Similarly Hymer simply claim that their paintwork is perfectly adequate. Presumably, the corrosion is a figment of my imagination.

 

Within the precise area previously covered by the leading panel I have now found, rubbed down and primed 36 separate patches of corrosion ranging in diameter from 2mm to about 20mm. There are no patches of corrosion on any other part of the roof. I rest my case m'lud.

 

This current motorhome was purchased on the basis of reputed Hymer quality. Unfortunately, it has proved to be the worst of my last four motorhomes. I age oorder these are Hobby, Chausson and, would you believe, Swift.

[Ocsid]

I sense from the tone of the posting this is not what might be wanted to be heard but:

 

I wonder if this is simply electro galvanic ?

 

As it has been stated that the issue is unique in location to where the flexible panel was, IMO, that statement alone kills any case against Hymer,.

If the aluminium was substandard the issue would be expected to be distributed panel wide. Plus, more generally there would be other cases where that batch of cladding sheet suffered, where they had used it elsewhere during that production run.

 

[Brian Kirby]

I think that is a bit harsh, Mike. As you say, the roof that was not affected by the solar panels was fine, and I think that is, in reality, all you can expect of Hymer.

 

It seems to me that the fault lies with Travelworld, who fitted the solar panel, either in the choice of adhesive that was used, or possibly in the type of solar panel fitted.

 

What strikes me is the colour of the corrosion, but more that there is corrosion. The aluminium itself if protected, as borne out by the rest of the roof, by the paint used. To cause corrosion of the aluminium, that paint has to have been removed, either by abrading it, or by chemical reaction with the adhesives or the panels.

 

I was also intrigued by the variety of colours visible in your pictures, where some of the spots appear brown, some grey , and some black. This suggests to me that there was either electrolytic, or chemical, corrosion, as aluminium corrodes in much the same way as zinc, which it to say that the oxide forms a slightly granular, greyish, coating that in effect is the protective of the metal beneath. Chemical contamination, even a salty atmosphere, can react with the oxide to negate its protective properties, but otherwise the oxidation does not destroy the metal itself, in the way rust destroys steel.

 

I'm wondering whether the solar panels, their supports, the adhesives, or the wiring connecting from the panel into the van, might have involved dissimilar metals to the roof itself, so that electrolytic corrosion took place. For example, might the wiring, which I assume will have been copper, have been exposed to the elements? Water dripping/running from copper onto aluminium will eat aluminium at an alarming rate.

 

I had experience of a building which has aluminium gutters beneath uninsulated copper telephone wires. Over a few years the water dripping off the copper wires ate through the aluminium guttering. It was clear what happened as the only damage to the guttering was directly beneath, and corresponded with the alignment of, the telephone wires. This was just the drips: there was no direct contact between the copper and the aluminium which, incidentally, was factory coated.

 

Do you know what materials were used in manufacture of the solar panels, or whether anything corrosive might have been used in their installation? All these patches seem to be localised, suggesting something that relates to the panel themselves, or something corrosive running, or dripping, from the panels.

[mikejkay]

Ocsid - 2021-05-07 7:03 PM

 

I sense from the tone of the posting this is not what might be wanted to be heard but:

 

I wonder if this is simply electro galvanic ?

 

As it has been stated that the issue is unique in location to where the flexible panel was, IMO, that statement alone kills any case against Hymer,.

If the aluminium was substandard the issue would be expected to be distributed panel wide. Plus, more generally there would be other cases where that batch of cladding sheet suffered, where they had used it elsewhere during that production run.

As you point out, the corrosion is entirely restricted to the area once covered by a flexible solar panel so it would seem reasonable to conclude that the fitting of the panel is a contributary factor to the corrosion. As the corrosion is in limited areas I would suggest that poor quality paintwork is also a contributory factor. I suspect pinholes in the paint which is extremely thin on the roof. I am not concerned with the reason for the corrosion but am concerned that two allegedly reputable companies have simply disowned any responsibilty for the situation.

[mikejkay]

Brian Kirby - 2021-05-07 7:28 PM

 

I think that is a bit harsh, Mike. As you say, the roof that was not affected by the solar panels was fine, and I think that is, in reality, all you can expect of Hymer.

 

It seems to me that the fault lies with Travelworld, who fitted the solar panel, either in the choice of adhesive that was used, or possibly in the type of solar panel fitted.

 

What strikes me is the colour of the corrosion, but more that there is corrosion. The aluminium itself if protected, as borne out by the rest of the roof, by the paint used. To cause corrosion of the aluminium, that paint has to have been removed, either by abrading it, or by chemical reaction with the adhesives or the panels.

 

I was also intrigued by the variety of colours visible in your pictures, where some of the spots appear brown, some grey , and some black. This suggests to me that there was either electrolytic, or chemical, corrosion, as aluminium corrodes in much the same way as zinc, which it to say that the oxide forms a slightly granular, greyish, coating that in effect is the protective of the metal beneath. Chemical contamination, even a salty atmosphere, can react with the oxide to negate its protective properties, but otherwise the oxidation does not destroy the metal itself, in the way rust destroys steel.

 

I'm wondering whether the solar panels, their supports, the adhesives, or the wiring connecting from the panel into the van, might have involved dissimilar metals to the roof itself, so that electrolytic corrosion took place. For example, might the wiring, which I assume will have been copper, have been exposed to the elements? Water dripping/running from copper onto aluminium will eat aluminium at an alarming rate.

 

I had experience of a building which has aluminium gutters beneath uninsulated copper telephone wires. Over a few years the water dripping off the copper wires ate through the aluminium guttering. It was clear what happened as the only damage to the guttering was directly beneath, and corresponded with the alignment of, the telephone wires. This was just the drips: there was no direct contact between the copper and the aluminium which, incidentally, was factory coated.

 

Do you know what materials were used in manufacture of the solar panels, or whether anything corrosive might have been used in their installation? All these patches seem to be localised, suggesting something that relates to the panel themselves, or something corrosive running, or dripping, from the panels.

The colour variation is, I think, mainly due to the effort put into rubbing down the patches while teetering on a ladder! The bigger patches show concentric rings. The patches of corrosion are not where the blobs of mastic were located, indeed I have left a lot of the mastic as it will be covered by the new panels.

 

I attach a close up of a patch of corrosion before sanding down. Some of the photos are of patches after priming.

[Keithl]

Mike,

 

Do you know what 'Mastic' was used to fix the panels?

 

If it was an 'Acetoxy' rather than a neutral cure then these secrete acetic acid as they cure and can cause considerable damage to adjacent metalwork.

 

Keith.

[mikejkay]

Brian

 

You say "I think that is a bit harsh, Mike. As you say, the roof that was not affected by the solar panels was fine, and I think that is, in reality, all you can expect of Hymer.

 

It seems to me that the fault lies with Travelworld, who fitted the solar panel, either in the choice of adhesive that was used, or possibly in the type of solar panel fitted."

 

I agree that the fault largely lies with Travelworld but they are main Hymer dealers and I expected Hymer to work with Travelworld in order to resolve the problem. My experience has shown that neither Hymer nor Travelworld customer services couldn't care less. Hence the warning.

 

P.S. The mastic used appears to be Sikaflex, it was just applied far too thinly and in dabs rather that the recommended strips. Another reason for not removing it is that it is as tough as old boots :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

These will (probably) be the earlier ‘roof corrosion’ forum threads Mike mentioned in his original posting above

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Flexi-solar-panel-removal-/55746/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Roof-corrosion/55498/

 

[Brian Kirby]

Having read both Derek's links, and the added details of water trapped beneath the solar panels plus Travelworld's failure to follow the panel manufacturer's fitting instructions, I'm afraid I am more, rather than less, convinced that the most likely cause of the corrosion is electrolysis, and that the electrolysis was facilitated by Travelworld's poor fitting of the panels.

 

Hymer made the van and, in the absence of Travelworld's interventions, supported by the absence of corrosion elsewhere on the roof of your van, the likelihood is that no such corrosion in the areas affected would have taken place. It is possible to mount solar panels onto motorhome roofs, but that is not the same as motorhome roofs being specifically designed to support solar panels. I really don't think Hymer can be held liable, especially as Travelworld didn't follow the panel manufacturer's fitting instructions. Also, your contract was with Travelworld, not Hymer - who you could only pursue via their warranty - over the interpretation of which which Hymer has the final word.

 

You may find this link helpful: https://tinyurl.com/kc8n2fd5

 

I don't know what solar panels are made from, or whether any of those materials are "passively" electrolytic, but with the panels apparently sitting on a pool of trapped water, as you describe, and generating electricity, the potential for electrolysis seems to me augmented. From the above link, the short life of the panels fitted to your van suggests they were either of an inferior brand, or that the manner in which they were fitted compromised their life, or possibly both.

 

Do you know why they failed? Is there a warranty on the panels themselves and, if the failure was within the warranty period, were they returned to the manufacturer for diagnosis? Have you contacted the panel maker and specifically asked them why they recommend continuous beads of adhesive all around their perimeter, and what would be the consequences of not sealing the perimeter? If not, I would suggest doing so, as the answer may be helpful to you.

 

If you are able to find out, and obtain authoritative confirmation of: 1, why the panels failed; 2, whether fitting them as Travelworld fitted them might have compromised their life, and especially; 3, whether, when fitted as they were, there was a likelihood of electrolytic action between the panel and the aluminium roof, you would seem to have grounds to bring a claim through the small claims procedure against Travelworld for full repair of the roof, plus replacement with new and proper fitting of, the solar panels. But, as the circumstances are complex, you will first have to assemble the evidence and necessary expert opinions to provide proof that Travelworld were negligent in the panels they fitted and/or in the manner in which they fitted them.

[Deffheads]

I am sorry this has happened to your Hymer, but did you previously fit solar panels in the same way to your earlier vans without any damage? Can I ask why flexible panels were fitted? They obviously are not as durable as solid ones that are normally guaranteed for 5 years minimum. I feel it's a bit unfair to question Hymers quality after you had the modification done to the roof!

[mikejkay]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I still feel that Hymer are at least partly culpable. The corrosion would not have started had there not been flaws in the paintwork even if these were microscopic pinholes. Whatever the cause it is clear that the corrosion has occurred in very specificied locations. The paintwork between these locations is fine, despite these areas it having been subjected to the same conditions.

 

I had hoped that Hymer and Travelworld, as a Hymer main agent, would, in the interest of customer relations, have accepted some responsibility for a problem with a van which, at the time, was four years old. In any event I have too few years left to get involved in litigation.

 

Moral(s) of the saga:

1) Do not fit flexible solar panels. Forum dicussions elsewhere suggest that I was kucky to get 4yrs.

2) Have solar panels fitted by a specialist not a dealer, or DIY.

3) Don't expect a dealer, however big, to be interested in problems even if they are due to their shoddy workmanship.

4) Don't rely on Hymer for assistance with a problem with one of their main dealers.

 

The irony of the situation is that I paid for Travelworld to supply and fit solar panels in order to have an easy life. I fitted the panels to my two previous vans myself. with no problems I might add. Now, five years down the line, and five years older, I am once again scrabbling about on the van roof.

 

[Ocsid]

mikejkay - 2021-05-08 1:46 PM

 

I still feel that Hymer are at least partly culpable. The corrosion would not have started had there not been flaws in the paintwork even if these were microscopic pinholes. Whatever the cause it is clear that the corrosion has occurred in very specificied locations.

The micro porosity of paint actually will concentrate the galvanic corrosion attack.

The difference in the electro potential between dissimilar metals is not at all dependant on exposed area, simply on the potential difference in the metals or any carbon involved.

So micro porosity concentrates it at these pinholes.

[BruceM]

Ocsid - 2021-05-08 3:41 PM

 

mikejkay - 2021-05-08 1:46 PM

 

I still feel that Hymer are at least partly culpable. The corrosion would not have started had there not been flaws in the paintwork even if these were microscopic pinholes. Whatever the cause it is clear that the corrosion has occurred in very specificied locations.

Unfortunately, IMO your understanding expressed here of electro galvanic corrosion is flawed. The micro porosity of paint actually will concentrate the galvanic corrosion attack.

The difference in the electro potential between dissimilar metals is not at all dependant on exposed area, simply on the potential difference in the metals or any carbon involved.

So far from micro porosity diminishing the attack, it does just the opposite as you have found, concentrate it at these pinholes.

I think that what the op is saying is that if Hymer had ‘correctly’ painted the vehicle then the dissimilar metals would have been insulated by the paint and galvanic action would not have taken place. The problem here I think is that there are a number of possible causes so that without a professional investigation the true cause of the problem is difficult to pin down.

 

Where the op does appear to have a valid complaint however is that the apparently Hymer authorised dealership that carried out the work is unwilling to accept responsibility and that Hymer them selves are apparently unwilling to put some pressure on the dealership on the op’s behalf. It’s as if reputational damage is not an issue that concerns this dealer/manufacturer combo or, from what I’ve observed from various forum comments, a surprising number of motorhome dealerships. Hymer have, as we know, changed ownership. I’m always wary of anecdotal experiences but I wonder if anyone has any recent experience that would shed light on whether Hymer’s customer service has changed for better or worse as a consequence of the ownership change?

[stevec176]

The op needs to get in touch with the CEOs of Hymer and Travelworld directly. My friend needed the roof of his van repairing / replacing under warranty and has been waiting nearly a year without much progressing. After a recent article in MMM about Adria I got him the email for their CEO and he sent her an email. Although he didn't hear from her the garage he was dealing with did and suddenly everything is progressing and his van is booked in for repair. So, contact Hymers CEO, Martin Brandt, and Travelworld CEO, Jorg Reith Meier, nothing to lose everything to gain.

[Brian Kirby]

I'm afraid I still think the defective paint argument is a dead duck. What evidence there is points to the paint being perfectly adequate or otherwise there should be similar outbreaks of corrosion all across the roof. The location of the corrosion in areas apparently beneath the solar panels points to the panels themselves (or their composition) and/or the manner in which they were fixed, as the cause of the corrosion, which I still think cannot be the fault of Hymer. However, I would have hoped that Hymer would have pressed Travelworld to be more constructive in their response to their liabilities. As already said, there is a reputational element in this. But now?

 

But, the problem now is that, apart from the part repaired corrosion pits on the roof, all the evidence has been removed. The panels have gone, and the evidence of way they were fixed has now been removed. The solar panel supplier has apparently replaced the panels under warranty, so presumably the original panels are no longer available for inspection and in so doing, as I understand it, the dealer has been denied the opportunity to see for himself. So neither Travelworld (AKA The Erwin Hymer Centre) nor Hymer themselves can view the actual fault to be able to investigate how it might have been caused and or propose remedy.

 

I sympathise with the Mike, but if only he'd taken the van back to Travelworld when he first discovered the failed panels, and asked them to sort the problem for him, he would have had a far better case than he now has. That, as I understand it, was largely because doing so would have involved a return trip from Torbay to Stafford. Sadly, it seems to be a classic example of why one shouldn't buy from far-away dealers.

 

In short, all the evidence has gone, so in making a case it will be Mike's word against Travelworld's word and, with no evidence to show, Mike is in a weak position, exacerbated by the passage of a year or so since the problem was first detected, apparently some four years after he bought the van.

 

An etch primer should be applied to the exposed aluminium surface to remove the existing oxide surface. I found the description on the web that Mike may find helpful:

 

The trick to painting the material is to apply an etching primer first to remove the aluminium’s natural oxidisation layer and help the paint adhere to the surface. Failure to do this correctly may result in the paint peeling or chipping off the aluminium shortly after its application.

 

Painting Aluminium – The Step by Step Guide.

 

Step 1 – Ensure that the surface you intend to paint has been thoroughly cleaned and is completely free from dirt, grease, oil, or anything that could potentially interfere with your paint’s adherence during and after application. Aluminium is a strong material, so don’t be afraid to use a coarse scrubbing brush, but refrain from using steel wool or scouring pads, as they could have a potentially damage the aesthetics of your aluminium.

 

Step 2 – Once the material has been thoroughly cleaned, you can proceed to apply the etching primer. The smooth surface of your aluminium has to be properly abraded to allow the paint to have somewhere to get in and adhere to. With most other materials, this is usually accomplished with sandpaper, but with aluminium it is highly recommended that you use an etching primer and leave it on for 4 to 6 hours before painting.

 

Step 3 – Once the aluminium has been properly cleaned and etched, you are able to use almost any kind of paint to colour your aluminium. It is important to consider whether the final product will be used in or outdoors, and what weather conditions it will be exposed to when selecting paint. Like most painting applications, it is advised to apply a white base-coat before applying 2 to 3 coats of your desired paint. This will ensure the best possible results for your newly painted material.

[mikejkay]

Brian,

I think we will have to agree to disagree. In my view the very localised and circular areas of corrosion point towards defects in the paint, in my view pinholes. Comparing the areas affected with the rest of the roof is misleading. The solar panels provided a separate enviroment for the corrosion to develop as they trapped water against the roof for long periods. There was a lot of water under the panels when I removed them after about four weeks of hot weather. The gap between the panels and the roof was about 2-3mm.

 

The situation is reminiscent of boat pox. In the long distant past I revealed a perfect circle of blister in the gelcoat on the coachroof of my old boat when I took the life belt off!

 

Fyi I still have the panels, deciding to keep them in case I needed evidence. Most of the dabs of mastic remain on the roof so it would be possible to measure the their thickness.

 

Currently, the corrosion has been sanded back to bare metal, given two coats of aluminium etching primer and painted with Hammerite. When it stops raining I will fit the second 80w panel to prove the lie that there is not enough space to fit 150 w of solar panels!

 

Thanks again, Brian et al, for your interest and comments.