Sheared bolt problem, engine removal at Fiat professional garage .Advice please.

[Brian Kirby]

But back to what I hope may be helpful, I now have some further comments, in answer to my questions, to relay from my contact. As before, I will highlight these in italics.

 

"The vehicle is out of warranty and beyond any reasonable measure of goodwill, but the pan European phone number in the handbook is for 'Customer relations' and they are based in Italy.

 

I would say that either as a warrantied new vehicle owner or as a user of a Fiat workshop; you are a customer and you need help.

 

I realise that they will at first not understand the reason for the contact but once it dawns on them that one of their dealers in Spain is cocking up in a non-native tongue; they will try and help.

 

Failing that, (the poster) should get in touch with their recovery assistance supplier, such as the AA. They will not want to get involved but may have a translator service for technical problems that members encounter.

 

To change the cam belt, you remove the wing liner, remove any air-con pipes, remove the headlamp, offside engine mount, aux drive belt and move a couple of other things followed by the cam cover. That is enough to remove the belt. Once the belt is off and only if there is a sign of a leak would you next have to take off the fuel pump and then you can just about get to the water pump. It is a considerable extra job even while the belt is being done.

 

I would want to know why the garage decided to replace the pump, and if they had permission!

 

If the block has been damaged it could only be by negligence while removing the stud and I suppose the worst case scenario is that someone has been over-zealous with the drill required for a Helicoil (a threaded insert designed for use where a seized bolt has had to be drilled out. B) and has punctured a water jacket! I personally just cannot imagine a trained mechanic or even a confident DIY mechanic getting it so messed up that it is beyond repair.

 

Shameful stuff.

 

I think if this were a relative or friend of mine, I would be getting the van pulled out of there and transported home. I would expect to be paying nothing for the work that has been done (!) so far.

 

A replacement engine may be the best course of action, but I would want to have the vehicle with a garage that I trust - and speaks English.

 

If the Spanish garage are as distressed about this as the customer is; I think they might rip his arm off at the offer of it just going away quietly. Especially if Fiat Cust Rel have been poking around.... That would be probably the best outcome at this point.

 

Much better than paying a fortune and tentatively driving away in some of their finest work!

 

Fiat supply the replacement cambelt as a kit with the tensioner, idler roller and belt. So do most of the after market suppliers. Even this garage would know that.

 

I don't know what Fiat will do. They may surprise! You can't go around advertising an 00800 number (00800 342 80000) that spells out "CIAO FIAT" without being able to offer at least language support with the dealer network."

 

One further thought (mine! :-)). As you have AA membership, do you not also have access to their legal service? Based on the garage's record with your van to date, I think I too would also want to get the van removed from their premises as quickly as possible, and definitely before any further work has been attempted. This was a working vehicle that has been rendered totally unusable by their actions. This was sheer incompetence, and the removal of the water pump was (expensive) wholly un-necessary work in replacing the cam belt - unless there was good evidence of the pump leaking.

 

Can you post up the photo you took of the damage to the block around the water pump bolt? You will need to reduce the file size to max 100kb and, for simplicity, to attach the file as .jpg (preferable) or .jpeg. This might help the knowledgeable ones in understanding the severity of the damage.

 

Keep all invoices for costs you incur (hotels, transport, other associated charges) in trying to resolve this, as you may eventually feel you want to bring a legal case to recover your costs against the garage.

 

Again, I think it would be wise to enlist the legal service that the AA, or even possibly your van (or other) insurance policy, provides. This has the hall-marks of a garage that has taken advantage of the language barrier to execute additional work that was unnecessary, for which they were demonstrably not competent (or, I assume, authorised by you to undertake), and have consequently caused you considerable loss and stress. Good luck, and do let us know how you get on.

[John52]

Very interesting and useful well informed posts Brian

I stand by what I said about I wouldn't blame the mechanic for snapping a stud when undoing a nut because I have snapped a few myself - with no more than usual torque

But it seems there is a lot more to it than that

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I'm pretty sure the 'contact' is Nick Fisher who was a regular participant on these forums (user name "euroserv") and is currently editor of MMM Magazine's "Tech help!" section.

 

Nick's water pump-related opinions were expressed in this 2017 forum discussion

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/cam-belt/48195/

 

but the reality is that a Fiat Professional agency will almost certainly include water pump replacement as part of the timing-belt change task and it will be up to the vehicle's owner to specifically instruct the agency not to replace the pump.

 

(I haven't seen anything in Tringy's postings to suggest that the Spanish garage has diagnosed that a new motor will be required: the garage has just said that the motor will need to be displaced to allow access to be gained to the part of the engine where the broken off bolt is. Assuming that it is not possible to extract the broken part of the bolt as things stand, this action may well be unavoidable and the effort involved will be considerable.)

[tringy]

Up date. Hi all, Fiat customer relations Italy and there Spanish counterparts have excepted the garages comments and a different version to what we was told. The garage told Fiat that there was excessive corrosion on the engine and as it was over 6 years and 3 months old they will NOT under any circumstances look at this case full stop. Yes I know the cambelt is over but this was the first convienant opportunity to do so dew to the covid lockdown and restrictions, Fiat were not interested at all in any Lea way. But this has got nothing to do with corrosion. We are now resigned to the fact that we will have to pay up and bite the bullet, lesson learnt. So 6 years is now the time that the engine will possibly last.

Regards Tringy.

[Brian Kirby]

On the question of the "contact" you are correct Derek. Nick has subsequently confirmed that he had no reservations about his name being used, but in view of the apparent urgency I wanted to post up his reactions before he'd clarified that. So I kept him anonymous - just in case.

 

I agree it is not clear that the dealer was proposing to replace the engine, but the cost, and their line of argument (as relayed by Tringy) suggested that was where they were heading. We do not know whether the garage actually sought permission to add the pump to the job, but Nick is adamant that the pumps are very long lasting, and that their removal is not necessary for cam belt replacement (plus its added cost and risks), so I'll bow to his superior knowledge and experience of these engines.

 

However, Tringy has now lost access to his motorhome so is having to use hotel accommodation instead, and is facing a steep bill for unnecessary work from a garage of questionable competence. So, I'm inclined to agree with Nick that his best route would be to get his van transported to a more competent firm, ideally with assistance from Fiat at least as regards some suggestion as to where next to take the van. After all, Tringy did take the van to what he understood to be a "Fiat Professional" workshop, so was entitled to expect the garage to be fully aware of the risk their (presumed) decision to remove the water pump would present.

 

There is an obvious warning in this as to the wisdom of having any routine maintenance work to a vehicle carried out while abroad, the more so if not familiar with the language or the technical terminology likely to be needed to understand what is actually being proposed.

 

I'm (was! :-)) reasonably fluent in French, and although I do know a few of the technical terms associated with mechanical matters (my ex-school correspondent's dad ran a garage specialising in rebuilding diesel injector pumps and changing brake and clutch linings), I would hesitate to rock up at a French garage with a motorhome requesting an annual service and cam belt change!

 

But, Tringy has passed the point at which that observation might be of any use, and is now where he is. Notwithstanding, the garage seems to have served him appallingly badly, and should be striving to rectify the consequences of its errors at no cost to Tringy. It might be helpful if Tringy (or anyone else, for that matter) can find out or knows whether replacement of the water pump is recommended by Fiat in conjunction with replacing the cam belt, or whether this was just one of those optional items that a garage might add on for the extra business.

 

The reason the cam belt change was necessary was age, not mileage, and motorhomes seldom do the kinds of mileages that might necessitate replacement of a water pump as a result of wear - assuming the coolant has been properly maintained during normal servicing. So poor advice (assuming advice was given) and apparently, poor explanation of the potential risks and cost consequences were this notoriously difficult to remove bolt to shear. There has been no mention of the water pump leaking, so justifying its replacement.

[Brian Kirby]

tringy - 2021-09-22 1:14 PM

Up date. Hi all, Fiat customer relations Italy and there Spanish counterparts have excepted the garages comments and a different version to what we was told. The garage told Fiat that there was excessive corrosion on the engine and as it was over 6 years and 3 months old they will NOT under any circumstances look at this case full stop. Yes I know the cambelt is over but this was the first convienant opportunity to do so dew to the covid lockdown and restrictions, Fiat were not interested at all in any Lea way. But this has got nothing to do with corrosion. We are now resigned to the fact that we will have to pay up and bite the bullet, lesson learnt. So 6 years is now the time that the engine will possibly last.

Regards Tringy.

But has anyone confirmed why the water pump was removed in the first place? Can you post your picture of the engine block showing the damage? That should allow the amount of corrosion to be seen.

[tringy]

Pictures hopefully attached

[Bulletguy]

tringy - 2021-09-22 1:14 PM

 

Up date. Hi all, Fiat customer relations Italy and there Spanish counterparts have excepted the garages comments and a different version to what we was told. The garage told Fiat that there was excessive corrosion on the engine and as it was over 6 years and 3 months old they will NOT under any circumstances look at this case full stop.

"Excessive corrosion"?? It's only just over 6 years old so Fiat stating that is not a very good "advert" for their "quality"!!

 

You need the AA to repatriate your van back to UK pronto, then find a local independent who will sort that problem out at a fraction of the price.

[Bulletguy]

 

That looks pretty clean to me. Ok steel and aluminum don't like each other (chemical reaction) and it's not unusual to get a stud stuck.

 

Have you asked the AA if they will repatriate or are you letting the work go ahead there?

[euroserv]

Hi everyone. I am here! I hope that my past friends and acquaintances are well.

 

I was asked to have a look at this by Brian and i asked him to be an intermediary because i rarely come here these days and could not keep coming back to assist as this progresses. Today he sent me a note that there were some pictures and i have a few minutes.....

 

I can confirm that Fiat Professional workshops are required only to inspect the pump for signs of leaking and that the water pump is never replaced as a matter of course. I ran hundreds of these engines, many up to 250,000 miles and only replaced one leaking pump. Many of our cam belts were replaced at one of two Fiat workshops that we used and neither of them ever mentioned the pump being replaced. I hope that clears that up.

 

The images are not very clear, and i understand because it will have been difficult to take them but the damage looks far less serious than i had imagined. I am completely confident that with care the stud can be drilled out and if the thread cannot be cleaned up, a helicoil type threaded insert could be used.

 

If the engine cannot be tipped up one way or another to allow reasonable access for what is a delicate procedure; the engine may have to come out.

The problem with drilling a steel stud out of aluminium is that if you veer off centre, the drill bit will 'hog' into the soft aluminium of the block. Even highly skilled engineers will be very wary of this. Sometimes a small pilot hole followed by a die grinder bit is the best choice and once the hole is big enough there are many good extractor tools that can remove the remaining part.

 

This type of thing happens all the time and is not the preserve of Fiat! Studs break and workshops have the tools to hand or a specialist that can be called in. The problem here is access and whoever is going to execute the repair will need to be confident that they have adequate room to work. You would not ask a surgeon to carry out a heart transplant in a phone box!

 

I now have a different view and would allow them to do the repair and if they need to remove the engine to do so i would say it is justifiable. Work carried out by an official Fiat service agent carries a warranty valid throughout Europe. Or at least it did.... Check with Fiat Customer Relations first to make sure that this is the case. If not, i would recommend plan A and get it home as soon as you can.

 

I think that they were completely wrong to remove the pump unless there was evidence of a leak and i am concerned that the mechanic was a bit ham-fisted with the bolts but these things do happen. I would hope that there would be a very visible reduction in the final cost that reflects the errors that have been made.

 

I won't be able to check back here until Friday evening. My work commitments along with my work for MMM are quite demanding these days. Nothing new there then!

 

Nick

[tringy]

Sorry folks but I don’t know how to post photos on here, my other half tried but it looks like it was unsuccessful. I have several photos and a 30 second video clip . A step-by-step guide might help if anyone has the time. Thanks.

Regards as always. Tringy.

I have just seen the photos have appeared ?? but the bolt was cleanly sheared when I first saw it , but I didn’t get a photo of it., my mistake as it turns out.

[simian]

Based on viewing the pics ;

 

I think I'd chance a reassemble without doing anything other than new gasket and perhaps an adhesive sealant. Carry out a practice run around the block, if Ok then take the chance. Keeping a supply of top up water handy and an eye on the temperature gauge. Fix when home.

[Derek Uzzell]

tringy - 2021-09-22 7:27 PM

 

Sorry folks but I don’t know how to post photos on here, my other half tried but it looks like it was unsuccessful. I have several photos and a 30 second video clip . A step-by-step guide might help if anyone has the time. Thanks.

Regards as always. Tringy.

I have just seen the photos have appeared ?? but the bolt was cleanly sheared when I first saw it , but I didn’t get a photo of it., my mistake as it turns out.

 

Advice on attaching files to a forum posting is provided in the Forum User Guide at the top of the forum homepage and the relevant guidance is as follows:

 

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If a file has a .jpeg extension (eg. photo.jpeg) just the name of the file will be shown at the foot of the posting. If a forum-member then clicks on the file-name, the member’s own device (PC, Mac, tablet, etc.) will attempt to handle it and the image will normally become visible.

 

It is possible to attach other file-types provided that the file-size is no larger than 100KB. However, there is no certainty how the forums’ software will react.

 

Your photos were under 100KB in size, so they did successfully attach to your posting. However, as your photos had a (nowadays normal for phones) .jpeg file-extension, they did not automatically display.

 

The reason the photos appeared later is because I copied your photos, changed the file-extension from .jpeg to .jpg (that the forum’s ancient software demands if a photo is to be diplayed automatically) and added the amended files to your posting that now has four attachments rather than the original two. While I was at it I increased the size of your photos and tweaked their colour and definition so that the broken-bolt damage became more evident. (The original photos are the 22KB and 18KB files that can still be viewed if downloaded; my ‘enhanced’ versions are the 66KB and 107KB files.)

 

I don’t think you’d be able to add a video clip to a posting due to file-size limitations (at least I’ve never seem anybody do this in the past) though you could put the clip on (say) YouTube and provide a link to it in a posting.

[Derek Uzzell]

Just in case anyone wonders what changng the timing-belt and water-pump entails, there’s a YouTube video showing the task being performed on an Iveco Daily that has a similar 2.3-litre motor (and water-pump) to the Ducato's.

 

 

It will be seen that the water-pump unit is a substantial component held against the engine-block by a number of bolts. This retention method means that the pump can easily be positioned against the engine block and the bolts then be inserted (rather than using studs and nuts). The Daily’s longitudinal engine allows good access to the front of the motor, but accees is much more restricted for Ducato that has a transverse powerplant.

 

In this late-2017 forum discussion

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/cam-belt/48195/

 

Nick Fisher (euroserv) said

 

The water pump on the 2.3JTD is designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle and unless there are obvious signs that something is amiss, it should be left well alone. It is a much bigger job than you might think and access is extremely difficult. The fuel pump has to be removed and if any of the bolts are problematic it will require the engine to be removed to remedy. I have only ever changed one and it was because the engine was already out.

 

There is plenty of online ’stuff’ about bolts/studs breaking off when a water-pump is replaced, but no evidence to suggest that bolt failure is a recognised problem when replacing the pump of a Ducato X250/X290. Nor - when a Ducato bolt does shear - that this is statistically a common occurrence. However (as Nick highlighted in 2017) there is an ever-present risk that, if a Ducato X250/X290 water-pump retention bolt does shear, removing the broken-off piece from the block may well prove to be a major task.