Insulation in Panel vans

[George Collings]

On the principal that a pic is worth a thousand words.

 

This is a 2006 ish IH ( Van Rouge ring a bell)

 

A panel van is much more difficult to insulate than a foam insulated coachbuilt. But in both cases a significant heat loss occurs through the single glazed cab area. If I was building a van to fulltime in or for winter sports it would have the cab totally seperated from the living area.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

With respect the condensation is on the outside,so I'm not sure what the point is really. Mind you by the time you factor in all the drop vents, less than perfect door seals, plastic windows, huge roof-lights, cab draughts, fridge draughts from less than perfect room sealed ones, ( our previous PVC blew a gale around the fridge until a liberal amount of clear silicone sorted it ) but I can honestly say our IH is every bit as good, or bad whichever way you look at it than our last so called "winterised" Elnagh CB. In severe cold weather they can get pretty chilly without some form of background heat in every van I've owned.

 

If I was designing one from scratch the cab area would have the option to be completely closed off at night just behind the cab seats, as in all the 5 vans owned that has always been the Achilles heal, as you rightly say.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting video - shows how much work for the DIY builder trying to cut all the insulation and panels etc to shape. Couldn't see how the floor, and perhaps more important ceiling is insulated, except it appears to be one piece, again very difficult if not impossible for the DIY builder.

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-07 2:20 AM

With respect the condensation is on the outside,so I'm not sure what the point is really.

It shows the heat loss through the door. The amount of moisture air can absorb depends on how warm it is. So when warm air meets a cold surface it cools, and deposits some of its moisture in the form of condensation. In the illustration the inside of the van is warmer than the outside. There is insulation on the flat door panels, so that insulated area is colder on the outside - where the condensation is. But the steel ribs in the door transmit warmth through from the inside to the outside. So where the struts are the door area is warmer on the outside, and there is no condensation.

 

Incidentally, heat loss is made worse by the van being a dark colour. Light colours tend to reflect heat and light, wheras dark colours absorb it. Light colours are also slower to radiate heat away.

So light colours are better for insulation, which is one reason why white is such a popular colour for a motorhome.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Here is another video of a panel van on test in winter. Minus 10 outside and with heating on 32 degC inside

 

thttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtWotbV-oNo

 

Things have moved on...this is a Globecar/Possl test. We have slept in ours when it has been snowing and it was fine......

 

Cab areas in all types of campers are the main areas for losses, but as has been said silver screens seem to do a good job on any camper.....

[crinklystarfish]

No matter how much / quality of / how well done the insulation there will always be a greater potential for thermal bridging with the pressed steel construction of a PV - simple physics. That thoughtful insulation can minimise the problems is clear, but they are always on the back foot compared to foam core laminate panels, or some of the latest poly*** materials. Of course, some budget / poorly designed / constructed CBs aren't anything to write home about.

 

I agree with the separation of cab from living area, to my mind it's essential. Silver screens are not an option for us, I can't be doing with such cumbersome / wet / faffy 'solutions'.

 

[rupert123]

Tony Jones - 2012-12-06 10:12 PM

 

Cab windows in ANY motorhome (CB or PVC) are single-glazed and will suffer internal condensation unless you use EXTERIOR silver screens or similar. (We choose only to carry internal screens for convenience, and put up with the condensation).

 

Some current PVCs (eg some of the posher Autosleepers) look to me as if they retain the tinted SINGLE-GLAZED windows from the minibus variant of the base vehicle. If that's so, I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole for anything other than summer use.

Our old home-converted Transit had single-glazed windows all round, and was impossible to heat. However since we only had it on the road in summer, we weren't too bothered back then!

 

You are correct Tony in that the Autosleepers do not have double glazing, at least our does not. However we had a weeknd away two weeks ago, do not know what nightime temperature was but windscreen was frozen in the morning so pretty cold. The heating was plenty good enough to keep things warm and at night I left the heating on low setting, electric, and all was fine. I guess from this things would be ok down to a few degrees below freezing so double glazing not required. Most panel vans do not have double glazing in the big sliding door anyway and none in the large windscreen area so fail to see it would make much differance in the couple of small remaining windows.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Really? Any van I have considered has been fully double glazed with the obvious exception of cab, mine is....so yet another USP of UK vans I guess along with the poor (carpet again) insulation pictured earlier. Jeez if they can't be assed to change the windows what happens in parts you can't see *-)

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I too am astonished at a converter who would leave single glazed windows on a conversion rather than convert a standard van, perhaps they only sell to first time buyers in the main who do not really know the implications. But with the trend to utilise the uninsulated space with acres of glass in the cab area as living space ( a daft idea in my view ) probably helps to spread the condensation around, perhaps that's their logic, ;-) ;-) :D

 

I know I might sound like an advert for IH, but their vans with the fixed GRP insulated rear panel, and all windows dg, largely illuminates problems with cold and condensation, now if only they could sort out the cab area ! !.

[Mike88]

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-07 10:38 AM

 

I too am astonished at a converter who would leave single glazed windows on a conversion rather than convert a standard van, perhaps they only sell to first time buyers in the main who do not really know the implications. But with the trend to utilise the uninsulated space with acres of glass in the cab area as living space ( a daft idea in my view ) probably helps to spread the condensation around, perhaps that's their logic, ;-) ;-) :D

 

I know I might sound like an advert for IH, but their vans with the fixed GRP insulated rear panel, and all windows dg, largely illuminates problems with cold and condensation, now if only they could sort out the cab area ! !.

 

This is what Autosleepers say about their single glazed athermic glass:

 

"In reply to your enquiry regarding the windows fitted to the Warwick, these are single glazed athermic glass, the properties of the athermic glass means that they act in a similar way to double glazing, in other words warm air from inside the vehicle is kept away from the cooler external air temperature. We have been manufacturing with the athermic glass for over 5 years with no complaints of condensation. When the Warwick was first launch the perception was that these windows would cause condensation issues, however this was soon dismissed when on test with the press.

 

Also added is the privacy tint to allow greater privacy when moving around the internal of the vehicle, as the tint is designed to be clearer when looking out rather than when looking inside the vehicle.

 

Also the use of the window van with the factory fitted bonded windows offer's greater security over the standard double glazed acrylic windows offered by our competitors, whilst also giving you a greater amount of vision throughout the length of the vehicle from inside.

Externally these windows offer a more aesthetically pleasing view of the vehicle, making this model look sleeker and longer than a standard panel van. "

 

I am not saying Autosleepers are right or wrong but merely reporting what they have said.

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Hmmmm..Spin me thinks. I will stick with double glazing thanks :-D

 

My windows are blacked out as well so that you can see out clearly and not look in *-)

 

here is an example:

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I think it very unfair to black out your windows, if that's the company you keep in your Avatar picture. :D

[Guest JudgeMental]

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-07 12:52 PM

 

I think it very unfair to black out your windows, if that's the company you keep in your Avatar picture. :D

 

Oh! please dont draw attention to that again or the self righteous brigade will be out..It was part of a running gag and had meant to change back to original hanging Judgeliness, but never got round to it. I see some typical uncalled for comments made you remove yours..mind you it was a bit scary:D .. a bit odd that pair of tiny nipples can cause consternation while a noose fine...funny old world!

 

black windows nice, you can sit up in bed in privacy, with a cup of tea watching the comings and goings outside....

[Guest JudgeMental]

found the photo of close cell insulation...its on a Possl van i am considering if I do change.

 

well I cant seem to copy picture but if you click on file of photos in this link it is at the end

 

http://tinyurl.com/crf2k89

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Mike88 - 2012-12-07 11:38 AM

 

1footinthegrave - 2012-12-07 10:38 AM

 

I too am astonished at a converter who would leave single glazed windows on a conversion rather than convert a standard van, perhaps they only sell to first time buyers in the main who do not really know the implications. But with the trend to utilise the uninsulated space with acres of glass in the cab area as living space ( a daft idea in my view ) probably helps to spread the condensation around, perhaps that's their logic, ;-) ;-) :D

 

I know I might sound like an advert for IH, but their vans with the fixed GRP insulated rear panel, and all windows dg, largely illuminates problems with cold and condensation, now if only they could sort out the cab area ! !.

 

This is what Autosleepers say about their single glazed athermic glass:

 

"In reply to your enquiry regarding the windows fitted to the Warwick, these are single glazed athermic glass, the properties of the athermic glass means that they act in a similar way to double glazing, in other words warm air from inside the vehicle is kept away from the cooler external air temperature. We have been manufacturing with the athermic glass for over 5 years with no complaints of condensation. When the Warwick was first launch the perception was that these windows would cause condensation issues, however this was soon dismissed when on test with the press.

 

Also added is the privacy tint to allow greater privacy when moving around the internal of the vehicle, as the tint is designed to be clearer when looking out rather than when looking inside the vehicle.

 

Also the use of the window van with the factory fitted bonded windows offer's greater security over the standard double glazed acrylic windows offered by our competitors, whilst also giving you a greater amount of vision throughout the length of the vehicle from inside.

Externally these windows offer a more aesthetically pleasing view of the vehicle, making this model look sleeker and longer than a standard panel van. "

 

I am not saying Autosleepers are right or wrong but merely reporting what they have said.

 

[maggyd]

JudgeMental - 2012-12-07 9:56 AM

 

Really? Any van I have considered has been fully double glazed with the obvious exception of cab, mine is....so yet another USP of UK vans I guess along with the poor (carpet again) insulation pictured earlier. Jeez if they can't be assed to change the windows what happens in parts you can't see *-)

 

 

 

Actually JM ALL our windows except the cab windows are double glazed, and our removable carpet is as thick as any we have seen on any van.

[Guest JudgeMental]

maggyd - 2012-12-07 3:14 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2012-12-07 9:56 AM

 

Really? Any van I have considered has been fully double glazed with the obvious exception of cab, mine is....so yet another USP of UK vans I guess along with the poor (carpet again) insulation pictured earlier. Jeez if they can't be assed to change the windows what happens in parts you can't see *-)

 

 

 

Actually JM ALL our windows except the cab windows are double glazed, and our removable carpet is as thick as any we have seen on any van.

 

lucky you it seems :-D you can get all sorts of thermal stuff to insulate PV's. Reimo.de They do silver screen type kit: insulated floor underlay, and a insulated hanging curtain for rear doors, I chatted to some Germans on a stellplatz last year, they had all the kit and went camping year round

 

 

whats has happened to Brian.....hope he has not fallen of his perch mid post*-) .... hopefully just nodded oft (its an age thing :D)

[goldi]

Afternoon all,

 

I f I was doing a conversion I would get the spray on type which has the potential to get behind al the stelwork.

 

 

norm

[Brian Kirby]

Mike88 - 2012-12-07 11:38 AM.....................................

This is what Autosleepers say about their single glazed athermic glass:

 

"In reply to your enquiry regarding the windows fitted to the Warwick, these are single glazed athermic glass, the properties of the athermic glass means that they act in a similar way to double glazing, in other words warm air from inside the vehicle is kept away from the cooler external air temperature. We have been manufacturing with the athermic glass for over 5 years with no complaints of condensation. When the Warwick was first launch the perception was that these windows would cause condensation issues, however this was soon dismissed when on test with the press.

 

Also added is the privacy tint to allow greater privacy when moving around the internal of the vehicle, as the tint is designed to be clearer when looking out rather than when looking inside the vehicle.

 

Also the use of the window van with the factory fitted bonded windows offer's greater security over the standard double glazed acrylic windows offered by our competitors, whilst also giving you a greater amount of vision throughout the length of the vehicle from inside.

Externally these windows offer a more aesthetically pleasing view of the vehicle, making this model look sleeker and longer than a standard panel van. "

 

I am not saying Autosleepers are right or wrong but merely reporting what they have said.

Sorry about the original attempt, pressed submit in error, then edited it to say what I meant to say, and then discovered the edit window had expired before I had finished saying what I wanted.

 

So, now in brief, I think AS claim about athermic glass is mostly gobbledygook. Double glazed units with even a 6mm air gap have a 65% lower thermal transmittance than single glass. Such units can just match building regulations requirements, while no kind of single glazing can. If it could, it would put the DG fabricators out of business almost over-night. The athermic glass part reflects back, and part absorbs, solar radiation, which is its primary function. It will therefore reflect back, and absorb, some radiant heat from within a warm van in cold weather. In so doing, it will become slightly warmer, so reducing its tendency to promote condensation. However, the glazed area will be substantially larger than with acrylic double glazed units. So larger area of poorer thermal performance glazing, plays smaller area of higher thermal performance glazing. Result: higher heat loss overall through the single glazing, more condensation than with double glazed units, but less than with conventional glazing. "No complaint" is also no proof! I am unconvinced by the security claim - unless the athermic units are laminated. However, I believe they are merely toughened, so in my book marginally less secure than acrylic DG units. Overall, IMO, fairy dust! :-)

[rupert123]

JudgeMental - 2012-12-07 9:56 AM

 

Really? Any van I have considered has been fully double glazed with the obvious exception of cab, mine is....so yet another USP of UK vans I guess along with the poor (carpet again) insulation pictured earlier. Jeez if they can't be assed to change the windows what happens in parts you can't see *-)

 

 

Eddie, Mike has beat me to it, did not want to go into full explanation but he kindly did it for me. I can confirm it seems to work and looks good as well. This is just one more example how some UK built vans have caught and past most mainland europe makers by using up to date technology instead of some old plastic windows in vans like yours. These plastic DB units are pretty hopeless by the way, probably not much better than the original glass. I will not comment on your obsesion about carpet on walls I just know the quality of insulation used by autosleeper is also first class. Still do not like panel vans though so it makes no differance to me, just like being smug now and again.

[rupert123]

Sorry Brian mostly wrong. The units cover the whole side of van, but this is mostly for looks, the actual windows are much smaller, you can only see this from inside. We get no condensation at all except on the windscreen. No idea why all this works but it does, van very warm inside down to a couple of degrees below zero, this would be good enough for us as we rarely use in winter anyway. I could type a load of technical stuff but anyone who is interested can look themselves, all the 'we must buy German' brigade will be very reluctant to admit they are being left behind anyway.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Ha ha ha.......fancy that....the mind boggles. Anyway impossible to reason with someone clearly of their trolly :D

 

Best humour him Brian ;-)

[Guest peter]

I thought about silver screens to stop condensation in the cab of our van, but at £350+ I had second thoughts. Plus you have to store the things somewhere, and they might be wet.

A friend told me about a vaccuum device from Karcher that sucks up window moisture. I was sceptical at first, but now I've bought one I've changed my mind, it's brilliant, you can use it in the house as well, as you still get moisture build up with double glazing. Link below.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/K%C3%A4rcher-WV-Window-Cleaning-Vacuum/dp/B004E9QSO0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354902210&sr=8-1

Might be a solution for someone.

[Guest pelmetman]

peter - 2012-12-07 5:49 PM

 

I thought about silver screens to stop condensation in the cab of our van, but at £350+ I had second thoughts. Plus you have to store the things somewhere, and they might be wet.

 

How much? 8-).....................I was thinking of replacing ours as after 22 years they're getting a bit tatty :-S.....................think I'll wait another 20 years :D

[Mike88]

There was a recent discussion on Swift-Talk about external silver screens. My comments about messing about with wet, mucky material that needed to be stored left me in a minority of one as everyone bar me seemed to swear by them.

 

The response on here to silver screens seems to be very different. Either way I have used them and gave them away. They are not the answer to condensation or insulation in my view. I just use a towel as I can't be bothered with the latest must have gadget even though the Karcher has excellent reviews.

[Guest peter]

pelmetman - 2012-12-07 5:53 PM

 

peter - 2012-12-07 5:49 PM

 

I thought about silver screens to stop condensation in the cab of our van, but at £350+ I had second thoughts. Plus you have to store the things somewhere, and they might be wet.

 

How much? 8-).....................I was thinking of replacing ours as after 22 years they're getting a bit tatty :-S.....................think I'll wait another 20 years :D

That's the price for A Class vans. Coachbuilts are about £85'ish.