paperwork needed to go to EU

[teccer1234]

thinking about if we decide to stay for up to 6 months, I think we would have to register for residency and deregister before the 6 months are up so we don't get taxed in spain, but what will happen at Calais on returning, just show the residency paperwork to show we/I are not overstayer's

I can understand not stamping the PP in my case but the PP is scanned anyway so on leaving  the eu they know when you entered

[webby1]

My post was also trying to explain why the non EU gets a stamp, whether with their EU spouse or not.

[teccer1234]

just received this. sorry it's a bit small but I think you will be able to read it

++

[Brian Kirby]

So you can stay beyond 90 days if accompanying your wife, but would need a residence card (apparently free, though not issued on demand) to do so - but the cherry on the cake is that your extended stay in Spain then doesn't count against the permitted 90 days you are allowed to spend in other EU member states.

But what isn't clear from their reply is how your entry/departure dates to/from Spain (there being no France/Spain border posts) would be recorded, so that a French border guard would understand why you had apparently overstayed your permitted 90 days when you came to return to UK.

It might be helpful to know what was the question you put to "Your Europe Advice". 

Their reply seems a bit contradictory, since in the paragraph referring to you "merely travelling to an EU member state with your wife" they say you will be subject to the 90 days rule, going on to say that you would need to take both passports plus marriage certificate plus proof that you are travelling together.

All UK nationals are already entitled to travel to Spain (or any other EU member state) for max 90 days, and do not need to be accompanied by their spouses (with or without EU passports) to do so and, even if accompanied by their spouses, certainly do not need their marriage certificate.

For up to 90 days, you have no need of your additional rights as the spouse of an EU citizen.  Those additional rights only apply if you invoke them and, when you do, you should become exempt from the 90 days rule.  That, it seems, is their point. 

They allow you, as spouse, to enjoy the same freedom of movement rights as an EU citizen. Seems a bit of clarification is needed.  At present, it seems Your Europe Advice's knickers are in a bit of a twist!  🙂

[teccer1234]

2 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

But what isn't clear from their reply is how your entry/departure dates to/from Spain (there being no France/Spain border posts) would be recorded, so that a French border guard would understand why you had apparently overstayed your permitted 90 days when you came to return to UK.

My neighbour is the chief of police of Murcia and she suggested that if I apply and get residencia then cancel it before we leave, I show the paperwork showing my temporary  residencia that would be enough to show that I didn't overstay.

My question

[Brian Kirby]

Well, she should be right regarding Spain, although having to cancel your residencia before leaving seems odd.

For how the French would interpret a Brit with an unstamped passport, accompanied by his Irish (EU citizen) spouse, seeking to return to UK at a Channel Port, who proffered a cancelled Spanish residencia as evidence of his entitlement to have stayed in Schengen I can't begin to imagine.

I think you'd be wise to contact the French embassy in UK for definitive (written) guidance on that.  I'm just a bit uneasy about a (presumably) English speaking French border guard's reaction when confronted with a Spanish document as evidence of your entitlement to stay beyond 90 days.

How good is your and your wife's French/Spanish if push comes to shove?  I like "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed when dealing with authority.  🙂 

[webby1]

I'm presuming throughout this that we are referring to overstaying 90 days in one country and thereby needing a residence card.

My concern is about going over 90 days having travelled through various EU countries with an EU spouse.My understanding is proof of marriage and a copy of the Directive 2004/38/EC and a polite smile should be enough.

I'll let you know next week when we travel back from Rotterdam....................I'm sure they allow internet access in Dutch prisons🤣

[teccer1234]

3 hours ago, Brian Kirby said:

Well, she should be right regarding Spain, although having to cancel your residencia before leaving seems odd.

apparently if I don't cancel my residencia before I leave I will have to pay my tax in spain after 6 months

[webby1]

Here's another complication/question that does not seem to be covered by the directive.If I overstay my 90 days I am presuming/hoping that will be OK if I travel with my Irish wife and that we could go out again within the 180 days as we have done.

But I'll bet if i wanted to go out on my own I would have to wait for the balance of the 180 days and my/our previous days would count.What do you think ?

[Brian Kirby]

18 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

apparently if I don't cancel my residencia before I leave I will have to pay my tax in spain after 6 months

Ah!  🙂

I wonder what cancelling the residencia actually means. 

If the residencia is dated on issue (presumably showing the date you entered Spain - though I've no idea what you'd need to do to prove that, since I believe you can only apply once in Spain ) and is annulled by adding an exit date, and is then returned to you clearly showing those dates, you should have a pretty bomb-proof document that you could present to any immigration officer in any Schengen state to show the duration of your stay in Spain which (I think whether or not you passport  actually gets stamped! 🙂), should not count against the total time you have spent in Schengen.  I assume your date of entry to Schengen can be readily enough established from your ferry/shuttle tickets, and ditto your wife if necessary to prove you travelled together.

Regarding the fine print of the "accompanying UK spouse" rules, I wonder whether your wife might get a clearer explanation than provided by "Europe Your Way", were she to contact the Irish embassy?  At least there should be no language barriers if you took that route, which should guarantee greater understanding for all concerned.

[Brian Kirby]

4 hours ago, webby1 said:

Here's another complication/question that does not seem to be covered by the directive.If I overstay my 90 days I am presuming/hoping that will be OK if I travel with my Irish wife and that we could go out again within the 180 days as we have done.

But I'll bet if i wanted to go out on my own I would have to wait for the balance of the 180 days and my/our previous days would count.  What do you think ?

Do you mean "go out on your own" while leaving your wife wherever you are both staying, or or "go out alone" to the EU from UK? 

In the former case, your passport will give the necessary identity document, but I've no idea how the duration of your stay to that point might be proved - other than through your travel tickets.  In the latter case, where you and your wife have both returned to the UK from Schengen, but you later go back into Schengen unaccompanied, I imagine all time you then spend in Schengen would be subject to the 90/180 days rule.

But, it's an interesting point.  My impression is that as an accompanying spouse you are entitled to the same rights of entry and stay as your wife, but only when accompanying her.  My further impression is that she is not, as an EU citizen, subject to any time limits within the Schengen area, and that her freedom to reside/travel in Schengen transfers to you, as her spouse, when, and only when, you are physically accompanying her.

That seems to me to imply that you have two distinct identities.  One in your own right as a UK visitor, when you are subject to EU "third country" provisions, and the other when you are with your wife, when you become a sort of "honorary EU citizen", and can do and go whatever/wherever your wife can do/go for as long as the rules allow her to travel within the Schengen area.  There was no limit on stay within the EU when we were members, and we were entitled to freely enter any other EU state for whatever purpose, be that travel, residence, work, or study.

Now, being a third country national, but accompanying a spouse who is an EU citizen (and can prove it!), it seems as though you are, in effect, invisible to to the EU (but only while accompanying your spouse, and subject to you carrying your passport as an identity document at times while out and about).

The question in my mind then, is can you leave you wife at home and go out with your (presumably) unstamped passport, and if you do, how do you establish your "accompanied" status rights if challenged by someone in authority?  Fun, innit!  😄 

[TeamRienza]

Is it not the case that theoretically an EU citizen can visit another EU (Shengen) country, but after ninety days they are supposed to register in that country. This requirement is not enforced in practice, but exists in law. This is my understanding which may be wrong or misinterpreted. So this parallels the scenario of a U.K. citizen accompanied by a spouse. 

Perhaps this muddies the thread, but may be relevant.

Davy

[teccer1234]

1 hour ago, TeamRienza said:

Is it not the case that theoretically an EU citizen can visit another EU (Shengen) country, but after ninety days they are supposed to register in that country. This requirement is not enforced in practice, but exists in law. This is my understanding which may be wrong or misinterpreted. So this parallels the scenario of a U.K. citizen accompanied by a spouse. 

Perhaps this muddies the thread, but may be relevant.

Davy

after being in spain for the last 26 years for 6 months at a time that has always been the case even before Br++++ but as you say it has never been enforced but since Br++++ they are now enforcing it where/if they can (find you !!)

that is why we might consider registering this year, that includes my Irish wife because I know she has to register as well even being an EU citizen. on the other hand we might decide that it's all too much trouble and say sod it and just stick to the 90 days.

another benifit of B+++++😩

[Brian Kirby]

16 hours ago, TeamRienza said:

Is it not the case that theoretically an EU citizen can visit another EU (Shengen) country, but after ninety days they are supposed to register in that country. This requirement is not enforced in practice, but exists in law. This is my understanding which may be wrong or misinterpreted. So this parallels the scenario of a U.K. citizen accompanied by a spouse. 

Perhaps this muddies the thread, but may be relevant.

Davy

I think this:

"DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

of 29 April 2004

on the right of citizens of the EU and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC"

 is what you need, here: https://tinyurl.com/22q24hcr 

With particular reference to, but not limited to, Chapter III, Article 7, 1. (b) and (c) and 2. which collectively seem to me to be clear that, subject to having suitable health insurance, and funds sufficient to sustain themselves during their stay, EU citizens, and any third country family member accompanying, or visiting, them, are not subject to the 90 days in 180 days rule.

This issue doesn't apply to me, so I have no vested interest in the outcomes, but it does seem that clear, authoritative, guidance from the "horses mouth" is readily enough available.

It is to be expected that staff at any individual border post, and every police officer who may stop you and ask for your identification papers, may not be fully conversant with all of the above, so it would be wise to mug up fully on the rules in advance, and possibly print off copies of the Directive in both English and the language of your intended host country/ies, to aid understanding is/when necessary.

They would then have to tell you why you are wrong, but at least you can then demonstrate that you have sought to comply.

It would also be wise to refer the Directive to the embassy/ies of any countries you intend to visit before you depart, and seek their (written) guidance on whether what you intend doing meets corresponds with their understanding of what you are entitled to do.

[webby1]

As I said we are jumping between two issues.One is staying in one country for over 90 days and then perhaps needing some form of residence card,which I also believe has technically always been the case.The other issue is moving around the EU for over 90 days for which the residence issue is not relevant.

Here's something else to perhaps muddy the waters.When we leave next week (Inshallah) after 98 days, perhaps I could be asked to prove we had actually travelled together throughout that time. I could have been floating around Shengen for months on my own(working?) and my wife just flies over for the last week to join me in the motorhome as we cross back to UK. What do you think.

[Brian Kirby]

Your first point is not, as I read the directive, relevant where a third country national is accompanying their EU citizen spouse.  In that case, again as I read the directive,  neither the Schengen 90/180 days rule, nor the need for a residence permit, should apply to either party.

However, as has been pointed out above, this is a Directive, and not EU statute law, so may be subject to national interpretation (or derogation) with any EU state.  That is something to check with the relevant national authority.

On your second point: leave where?  After 98 days where?  Your right to share your (EU citizen) spouse's rights of  freedom of movement and residence in EU states other than her home state, is conditional upon you accompanying her.  To establish your entitlement to use that right, you need to take your marriage certificate with you to be able prove you are legally married.

If your spouse were then to leave whichever state, leaving you unaccompanied in that state, you would have lost your entitlement to remain.  If your passport was not stamped when you entered Schengen, you could not prove your date of entry so would probably be in some difficulty if later challenged, either during your stay, or when trying to leave Schengen to return home.  You might be able to rely on your travel ticket to show an entry date, but whether that would be accepted goes back to Dirty Harry - are you feeling lucky?  🙂  If you stayed undetected for the duration of your stay and your spouse later flew back to accompany you home, it seems you might get lucky.  Who knows?

OTOH, if your passport had been stamped when you entered with your spouse, and she later left, you would at least have documentary evidence of your entry date but, in her absence, would become liable to the Schengen 90/180 days rule.  So if you had then stayed in Schengen for 98 days, you would demonstrably have overstayed, with the inevitable consequences.

The above should all become clear if you download and read the Directive.

However, even then, if you want/need guidance on the fine print, and how it is being interpreted by individual EU states, the only way to gain authoritative information is directly from those individual states.