Sambol Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 Gday all! I've got a Winnebago and i've upgraded the standard Lead acid system to a Lithium setup. I've got an inverter with built in changeover, new DC-DC charger and Solar charger. However I have left the -B2 connected to ground on the DS-520 as well as the +B2 connected the the positive of the new batteries. I was hoping this would allow the DS520 to continue to supply power via the fuses to the entire van, but I cant seem to get it to turn on. I feel like theres a 12v sense wire or something I must have missed.. Any help would be great! I've been pulling my hair out for weeks over this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 When I fitted a DC-DC charger and lithium batteries I ran 2 x 16mm2 cables pos and neg from starter battery direct to DC-DC charger bypassing the DS-520 altogether. I then pulled the fuse between the starter battery and DS-520. I've lost monitoring of starter battery voltage but otherwise everything functions as it should. I fitted a Battery Master so trickle charging of starter battery could happen from solar/mains charger, and I also have a Victron Shunt which monitors starter battery voltage as well as leisure batteries. I suspect you could fit a normally closed relay in the feed from starter battery to DS-520 activated by D+ and this way you wouldn't need to pull the fuse as I did. But Alanb is THE expert on CBE gear and hopefully he will be along shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 Hi Sambol. The introduction from Arthur49 is sheer flattery, but I do admit to a modicum of experience. See below. Welcome to the forum. Am I correct in thinking that you are located in Oz? I have lived with, and wired around a DS520AN for over 17 years. Other than those for tank levels and temperature sensors, the only sense wires associated with the DS520 are the "S" signal for the charger (mains on), and an ignition switched supply used for the simulated D+. You have not mentioned the control panel PC100, or PC200 etc. I suspect that is where your problem may be. Over the years I have read of several PCxxx failures with some interest. The common factor seems to be that the habitation battery has been allowed to be come completely discharged (flat). Also over the years I have experienced the failure of several electronic timers, which have been due to the failure of the small NiCad backup battery. The DS520xx uses such a battery. I have read of a fix for a similar problem being to replace the NiCad with an external battery, possibly even a lithium coin cell such as a CR2030. If the PCxxx is indeed faulty, repair may be possible by a specialist repairer. Your control panel will probably be a PCxxxxx with the last two characters being letters specific to Winnibago e.g. PC200WA. I have read of and can link to an MH owner rejecting the inflated price of a custom unit and fitted a standard PCxxxAN instead. When I squeezed a small 20A B2B (DC-DC charger) into my PVC, I fitted a simulated D+ operated changeover relay in front of the CBE B1 terminal, with the absorption fridge connected to the NO (87) terminal, and B1 terminal connected to NC (87a). B1 battery voltage can be monitored with engine off, and fridge does not draw from the B2B output. Mains charging of the staarter (B1) battery was retained. The big question is how to prove that your PCxxx is the cause of the problem. Before doing anything it may be worth disconnecting the ribbon cable for several minutes, in an attempt to reset the processor. Please post progress. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted November 27, 2023 Author Share Posted November 27, 2023 (edited) Cheers Alan! Yes I'm located in Australia (Brisbane) All my charging is sorted and the new batteries work great. Except I cant get anything powered via the CBE unit. Perhaps the control panel could be the problem.. It is a winnebago specific unit. Ive attached a pic of one (As well as a photo of the Dist Board).. I've struggled to find a model number, but i'll have another check. When I press the ON button on the control panel, it flashes part of the display for a millisecond... then just stays off.. I'll disconnect the panel for a while and see if that helps. If it is the control panel, am I able to replace it with another type of panel? Really appreciate the help! Edited November 27, 2023 by Sambol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 I'm not sure that it will help, but the control-panel in the photo above is a CBE PC220 unit. The PC220 can have several 'shapes' and may carry the make of the leisure-vehicle in which it has been installed. This link is to a User's Manual for a PC220-KT carrying the name "AVIDA" (an Australian manufacturer of high-end motorhomes and caravans). https://experience.avidarv.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Control-Panel-CBE-Avida-PC220-KT.pdf Some Australian on-line adverts for Avida and Winnebago motorhomes show the same Winnebago-badged PC220 in both makes of motorhome. Adverts for the 'generic' PC220 unit show a control-panel with "PC220" on it, so the Avida/Winnebago panel may be bespoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 (edited) Hi You need to check you have full voltage to the unit and a good earth , under 10v is a problem So check your voltage at the unit especially at start up . All wiring to the unit and connection and earths before condemning the unit The unit may act like that if you have a low voltage and as mentioned by Alanb the backup little battery "if fitted" may be dead They can be replaced by a little lithium cell battery, but yes the timers may be gone as well from same I would check all your wiring first and all connections before replacing any panel first .Replacing the Control Panel may solve your issue . Let us know how you get on Regards Edited November 27, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 On 27/11/2023 at 01:05, Sambol said: Gday all! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ However I have left the -B2 connected to ground on the DS-520 as well as the +B2 connected the the positive of the new batteries. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I've been pulling my hair out for weeks over this! The PC210 is supplied from the DS 520 via a 16 core connecting cable. As the supply to the DS520 is via the connections quoted above, there is no need for any separate earth connection, and I think that it is reasonable to assume that someone who has been pulling their hair for weeks, will at least have checked that the main supply was present at the DS520 terminals. As far as I know, there is no published pinout info for the 16 way connectors. This makes further testing problematic. I can confirm the presence of the backup battery in my PC200, as a made a visual inspection after reading about it, unfortunately I have yet to trace the repair article. One obvious use of the backup battery, is to power the clock on the PC2xx, but it seems that failure of the battery causes other problems. The timers mentioned in my previous post, included two heating programers, which I repaired by replacing the NiCad backup batteries. The timers were subsequently destroyed by a mains power surge, and the replacements of the same make and spec contained lithium coin cells. In the UK, there are companies who will test and repair CBE equipment, perhaps there will be similar services available in Oz? Failing that backup battery replacement could be attempted, on the basis that there would be little to lose. If considering a replacement PC2xx, please note that the only difference that I can see between the PC210, and my PC200 is that the push button switches are in different positions, and restyled. The functions are almost identical. The only detectable difference in function is that my PC200ih has an auxiliary button (which was not connected), instead of one with a music (radio?) symbol. @Sambol, if eventually you need to purchase a replacement PC2xxxx unit, see this Motorhome Fun thread. You may be able to use either a PC210AN, and perhaps the older PC200AN. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 (edited) Hi Just to clarify ,as you may just be still pulling your hair out , it is quite often the wiring connections do not give full voltage due to very high resistance , so on start up check what your voltage drops to. I think a new Control panel may solve your problem still ,but make sure you check all your wiring and you haven't a large voltage drop on same on start up .If you have and do not rectify this fault , even with the new panel fitted you may still be pulling your hair out, hope not Best of luck with it , keep us informed on your outcome Regards Edited November 28, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted November 28, 2023 Author Share Posted November 28, 2023 Just as a side question, Say I didnt care about the control panel. Is there a way to force the Distribution board to output voltage to the loads? (Doing the same as turning it On) Just so the van is usable while I troubleshoot this thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 12 hours ago, Alanb said: The PC210 is supplied from the DS 520 via a 16 core connecting cable... Except the CBE control-panel in Sambol's Winnebago is a PC220. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 I have read of an SOS fuse that could be inserted in the event of control panel failure. Unfortunately this was associated with a DS300, and there was no post in reply when details where requested. As my own DS520 is like me, no longer young, I have considered this possibility, but it would need at least partial pin out information for the 16 way connector. It would require 12V or possibly less, connecting to several of the interconnecting wires via a blocking diode array. These wires would be general ON signal, lights, and pump. Alan Just now, Derek Uzzell said: Except the CBE control-panel in Sambol's Winnebago is a PC220. Thanks Derek, my error, for PC210, read PC220. Alan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 17 hours ago, onecal said: Hi Just to clarify ,as you may just be still pulling your hair out , it is quite often the wiring connections do not give full voltage due to very high resistance , so on start up check what your voltage drops to. I think a new Control panel may solve your problem still ,but make sure you check all your wiring and you haven't a large voltage drop on same on start up .If you have and do not rectify this fault , even with the new panel fitted you may still be pulling your hair out, hope not Best of luck with it , keep us informed on your outcome Regards @onecal, I am concious that the CBE PC200/DS520 installation in my PVC is about 18 years old, and that the design life of these electronics may be 20 years. It seems possible that I could suffer from a similar failure to that experienced by the OP. With this possibility in mind, could you please specify as to where you suggest the the supply voltage should be monitored? The only supply points that are identifiable are the main B2 supply connections, and these are to M6 studs, which are hardly likely to introduce a significant resistance, unless they are loose. As I have previously stated, I am not aware of any published data regarding the 16 way connectors which link the CBE PCxxx, and DSxxx units, however while we are dealing with volts, and not millivolts on the power supply pins, it may be worth reseating the connectors, perhaps with the addition a small quantity of contact cleaner. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) Hi , Yes cleaning sometimes cleaning the pins works , but the cabling itself is also an issue and become's over the years a little fragile The main stud connections themselves may not be an issue but again the wiring may , Almost always replacing the wiring is a safe bet and may solve further issues of voltage drops which causes damage (Assuming batteries are in good condition Etc' ) Hope that helps Regards Edited November 29, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 Grabbed a photo of the control unit taken apart.. Looks to be a pc220-16. But I can't find a battery to replace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 This 2022 forum thread discussed the 'clock back-up' feature of some CBE control panels. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/53738-cbe-pc380-bs-control-panel-clock-setting/ The position (also mentioned on other motorhome forums) seems to be that the clock back-up power-source of earlier panels was an easily identifiable and replaceable 'watch type' battery, whereas the clock back-up of more recent panels (like yours) will be provided via a capacitor soldered on to the panel's PCB. So, no good looking for a battery - there ain't one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 So... Basically I need to buy a new control panel and just hope that fixes it? Dammit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 2 hours ago, Sambol said: So... Basically I need to buy a new control panel and just hope that fixes it? Dammit. Please be careful when handling the PCB. Observe static precautions. If possible earth (ground) yourself to battery -ve, or chassis. Unfortunately possibly yes. It looks like C17 at the lower edge of the PCB could be a high value backup capacitor. One thing that I notice is that there seems to be a loose wire at the RH end of the 16 way connector. This seems wrong, as I would expect the 16 way cable with connectors to be a standard piece of kit with all cores connected. Before purchasing a new unit with no guarantee of success, would it be possible to find a repairer in Oz? Is there any history of the B2 battery going flat, prior to your lithium install? The few failures that I have read about seem to involve a B2 becoming flat. On the technical side, I notice that there are positions on the PCB for additional push button switches, coupled perhaps with a different physical arrangement. From a function list of the cores in the 16 way cable, I believe that two extra switches are possible for customised models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 Hi Again , make sure you check all your wiring for damage and ensure you now have a good voltage ,before replacing the board or you may be replacing it with another in the near future. I assume you have checked the push contact buttons on the card and none are damaged . It happens often and very often overlooked along with damage from low voltage .You got good advice from Alanb and Derek , try and get it repaired or inspected if possible before just replacing it with a new one , hopefully after re checking all your wiring and connections and replacing the board if needed all should be good . Lets us know how you get on Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Alanb said: Is there any history of the B2 battery going flat, prior to your lithium install? The few failures that I have read about seem to involve a B2 becoming flat. Yes the B2 battery was removed while the install was completed. Probably took me a few weeks to get around to installing the new batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted December 2, 2023 Share Posted December 2, 2023 2 hours ago, Sambol said: Yes the B2 battery was removed while the install was completed. Probably took me a few weeks to get around to installing the new batteries. Thanks for the reply. A disconnection seems to be less of a problem than, a slow drop in voltage as a battery gradually discharges. I cannot see why a discharged capacitor should inhibit start up. What about that apparently loose wire that I mentioned? Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambol Posted December 2, 2023 Author Share Posted December 2, 2023 Upon a quick look, I can't see a spare pin on the connector. It looks like it was just an extra core that's not in use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted December 3, 2023 Share Posted December 3, 2023 Again It would be prudent to re check your wiring for damage and voltage drops Have you checked the centre pushbutton to see if it's working as they do fail ,These are the simple checks to make and repair, otherwise I think having it looked at by a professional repairer may be needed Again as I have stated a new board may just solve your problem, especially since you have had low battery issues , but it would be nice to know what caused the problem in the first place to prevent further damage to same again in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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