Renault Amalfi LB no-charge

[Brodgar]

Hi - I’m a noobie to this forum and motorhomes in general. I acquired my dad’s ‘07 Renault Trafic Amalfi with a Reimo pop top. He’s had it since new but at 90 years of age his somewhat erratic driving left the roof in bits in a field when he forgot to tie it down whilst driving. It was lucky no-one else was involved. So he’s off the road, but the van isn’t or not yet at least. It’s had a new roof fitted but having sat idle for a year it now has various issues and has become my project. It’s a decent van underneath, only 80,000k so I’m keen to get a few more years out of it. 

First problem is the leisure battery. Turns out it’s the original and was basically scrap which is what I’ve done with it, replacing it with same spec. The fuse and fuse block from the starter battery were blown and melted, when this happened I don’t know, so I’ve replaced them too. However when I start the engine the voltage across the lb terminals is battery voltage (12.45v, starter battery is fine 13v+) and from what I believe to be the split charge relay (black cube on a DS 300 circuit board…ubiquitous electronic distribution hardware for motorhomes?) comes an incessant clicking. It’s not exactly constant - I’ve still to determine a pattern to it - but it was audible before I replaced the battery and main fuse and it still is. 

If the relay was a stand alone item I’d replace it and see if that cured the problem but I’m not sure how simple it is to remove it from the circuit board. A gentle tug doesn’t feel like it’s merely connected into a terminal block. 

Any help on this would be appreciated. I’m probably going to be after more in future…😕

[Alanb]

Do not tug at the split charge relay, which you have correctly identified, as it is soldered to the board.

CBE DS300 does not use conventional D+ to operate the split charge relay.  Instead it takes an ignition switched supply, and monitors it electronically for about 13.3V, (alternator charging), after a short time delay one of the two orange coloured relays (upper left in photo) is operated.  This I believe, uses the ignition switched supply to operate the split charge relay. I also believe that the supply is also extended via RH 3A fuse for other purposes at blade terminal FA4. The fridge relay is also operated in parallel with the split charge relay.  This is the relay between FA2 and FA3, which are bridge out the relay when a compreeor fridge is fitted.

More importantly, the ignition switched supply connects to the board via the blue wire close to the B2 marking.  I suggest checking that you have a steady voltage >13.3V at the blue wire input to the board.

You have mentioned one main fuse but there should be two, one for the starter battery (B1), and one for B2.  They should both be close to the respective batteries.

Alan

[onecal]

Hi 

Was the van water damaged ? 

Regards

[Brodgar]

Thank you so much for your very comprehensive reply Alan. I have some good although perhaps confusing news. When I went to the van tonight, I put my multimeter across the starter battery terminals with the engine running - 13+ volts, same as on Friday - but putting the meter across the lb also produced 13+ volts so clearly being charged this time! The lb has been disconnected for several months (in fact it’s been completely absent as I scrapped it) until Friday when I connected the new one with a new 30A fuse and holder to the starter battery (in answer to your question, the 30A lb fuse was present and in good order) and it’s been connected since. Tonight was the first time I started the van since Friday and now the readings seem fine. However, before long the relay started chattering away, constantly this time like a hazard relay, until I disconnected the blue/white wire plug. At this point the clicking stopped. I checked the voltage at the blue wire - 12+ volts - then reconnected the plug. The relay gave one click and fell silent. The voltage readings (which I took this time from the B1 and B2 terminals on the board) remained at 13+ volts at all times when the blue/white plug was connected.

So I’m happier but more confused. 

Onecal, thanks also for your reply. There WAS water damage inside. When the new roof was being installed the fitter complained of a mouldy taste in his mouth (!) which I think came from the plywood bed base in the roof. I’ve replaced these and will soon be doing likewise to the sink unit which has become delaminated. However, there is no evidence of any damage to or nearby the electrical charging or distribution. 

Thanks again guys for the input, it’s really nice when people like yourselves take time out for forums such as these, especially at at this time of year.

Andy

[onecal]

Hi

Have you checked all the connections on the board itself , some of the soldering joints maybe broken especially relays for dry joints also some of the push on connections pins may be badly corroded  .You may need a new board or a repaired one if you have all other wiring itself and associate connections including good grounds(earths), fuses,etc' on the vehicle checked fully for damage 

Regards

Edited December 10, 2023 by onecal

[Brodgar]

Slight correction to my last post - voltage at blue wire terminal 13v+ (not 12v) with engine running. 

Onecal, I haven’t checked any of the connections but I’m hoping they’re fine - in lieu of developments since I’m going to wait and see what happens next. 

Andy

[onecal]

Hi

Connections need to be checked and cleaned as the pins corrode from dampness  (make and break a few times)

The back of the board for damage and dry joints 

Regards

[Alanb]

Hi Andy.

I am not happy about your voltage readings of just 13.0V, which is insufficient.

Can you check your multimeter on another vehicle battery?  You should see up to 14.4V with engine running.

With meter checked, I suggest pulling the main B1 fuse for the DS300, and then checking charging voltage directly across the starter battery.  This will check as to how well the alternator is working.

For the present problem, the only connections of importance are those at the three M6 studs, and of course the blue wire connecton (The white wire is the "mains on" signal from the charger. This signal initiates a low rate charge to the starter battery.) As B2 can be charged with the DSxxx switched off, I do not think that even its 16 way connector is pertinant.

The three main battery connections do not show any signs of corrosion, but how is B2 negative linked to B1 negative?  It could be either by a direct cable, or via a chassis connection.  Either would be part of the charging path, and the return for the simulated D+ signal.  I think that this connection(s), should be checked. Continuing my thoughts, is there an absorbtion fridge, and is it selected to 12V?  The 12V element takes in excess of 13A, and could cause significant voltage drop across a poor quality earh connection.

Alan

Edit to add: The fridge 12 element is supplied via pins 2 & 3 of the 6 way whie connector.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Alanb
Minor addition

[onecal]

Hi Andy

Yes I agree with Alan , you really need 13.5 volts supply .You really need to ensure the the pins carefully for corrosion as they do cause some problems as well  Hope this helps .

Regards

Edited December 11, 2023 by onecal

[Alanb]

4 hours ago, Alanb said:

Hi Andy.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 As B2 can be charged with the DSxxx switched off, I do not think that even its 16 way connector is pertinant.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Alan

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

 

I meant to say "......PCxxx switched off", as that is where the on/off switch is located.

Alan

[onecal]

Hi,

These pins and associate wiring and soldering need to be checked very carefully for both dry joints and corrosion Also 3A fuse on your Key ignition sensing line to 18 for poor connection along with your line to the battery charging line for damage 

Regards 

Edited December 11, 2023 by onecal

[Brodgar]

Hi guys. Apologies - it’s my punctuation/shorthand that’s at fault in my last post. When I wrote 13+ volts, I meant I was getting more than 13 volts. In fact I think it was 13.63 volts. So all good there.

Re: the white wire ‘mains on signal from the charger’, and forgive my ignorance, but do you mean the DC516 charger, and is that low rate charge to the starter battery when the van is on electrical hook-up?

Re: the fridge - if it’s switched to 12v, does it draw power when the ignition is switched off? 

The B2 battery is earthed to the chassis by a thick metal braided earth strap. It seems in good condition. There are some other wires connected to the terminals on B2 which I’d like to trace - some of them are for the Webasto heater. 

When I get back (which won’t be until Thursday) I’ll pull the connections off and check them for dryness/corrosion. Doing so to the blue/white wire certainly seems to have had an effect. I never heard the relay at all on the way into work this morning. I’ll also double check the voltage readings. If all is well I think my next job will be to see what state the drinking water pump and heater are in. 

Thanks again guys  

[Brodgar]

…Re: my ignorance - presumably no the fridge does not draw power with the ignition off because as you said its relay is wired in parallel with the split charge relay. Hi-hum, I’ll get there, every day’s a school day..!

One other thing though - if FA4 is a tapped supply for accessories, what is blade terminal FA5 for? The same..?

Andy

[Alanb]

1 hour ago, Brodgar said:

Hi guys. Apologies - it’s my punctuation/shorthand that’s at fault in my last post. When I wrote 13+ volts, I meant I was getting more than 13 volts. In fact I think it was 13.63 volts. So all good there.

I would still like to see over 14.0V.  13.6V is not much more that a float voltage.

Re: the white wire ‘mains on signal from the charger’, and forgive my ignorance, but do you mean the DC516 charger, and is that low rate charge to the starter battery when the van is on electrical hook-up?

White wire is the"S" signal rated at 50mA. It is used to operate one of the Tyco relays. I think probably the one above the split carge relay.  Contacts of said relay connect blocking diode and current limiting thermistor between B1 and B2 Thermistor is blue disc, and diode is adjacent. On EHU B1 will be about 0.5V lower than B2, due to diode forward voltage drop. Current limited to about 2A maximum.

Re: the fridge - if it’s switched to 12v, does it draw power when the ignition is switched off? 

A 3 way  fridge should not draw 12V power with ignition off.  Not sure about AES fridges, as they can draw 12V power with other distribution systems i.e Schaudt Electroblok.

The B2 battery is earthed to the chassis by a thick metal braided earth strap. It seems in good condition. There are some other wires connected to the terminals on B2 which I’d like to trace - some of them are for the Webasto heater. 

When I get back (which won’t be until Thursday) I’ll pull the connections off and check them for dryness/corrosion. Doing so to the blue/white wire certainly seems to have had an effect. I never heard the relay at all on the way into work this morning. I’ll also double check the voltage readings. If all is well I think my next job will be to see what state the drinking water pump and heater are in. 

Thanks again guys  

 

[Alanb]

1 hour ago, Brodgar said:

…Re: my ignorance - presumably no the fridge does not draw power with the ignition off because as you said its relay is wired in parallel with the split charge relay. Hi-hum, I’ll get there, every day’s a school day..!

One other thing though - if FA4 is a tapped supply for accessories, what is blade terminal FA5 for? The same..?

Yes according to the manual.

Andy

[Brodgar]

Re: I would still like to see over 14.0V.  13.6V is not much more that a float voltage.

I’ll check this on Thursday and report. 

Andy

[Brodgar]

A little later in following up (and perhaps closing this thread) because I was temporarily BANNED from the site! Not quite sure why since I didn’t believe my charging problem to be in any way controversial but after contacting the moderator the ban seemed just as mysteriously to lift. 

I pulled all the connections off the DS300 board, took an ‘unplugged’ photograph (this for clarity so I could study the layout and ask questions in a later post) and reconnected everything. Then I started the engine and took voltage readings at the board terminals. First of all they were -

B1 - 14.2v (yahoo!); B2 - 12.5v (boohoo 😢)

But then I pulled the blue/white wire connector off and on. There was an audible click and…

B1 - 13.8v; B2 - 13.8v…encouraging 

So I then checked voltages elsewhere…

Across starter battery 14.1v; readout on PC200 B1 - 14.2v; B2 13.6v

I’ve other issues to resolve (no interior lights), tidy up and clean/lubricate wiring and connections, plus some I might have though haven’t yet found out I do, but in the meantime it would seem, if those readings are correct, that I don’t have a charging problem..? 

Andy

[arthur49]

"There was an audible click and…"

That to me sounds like a relay operating.  Maybe contacts stuck and now OK?  Relay contacts can 'burn' over time I believe and prevent good electrical contact

[Alanb]

5 hours ago, Brodgar said:

A little later in following up (and perhaps closing this thread) because I was temporarily BANNED from the site! Not quite sure why since I didn’t believe my charging problem to be in any way controversial but after contacting the moderator the ban seemed just as mysteriously to lift. 

I pulled all the connections off the DS300 board, took an ‘unplugged’ photograph (this for clarity so I could study the layout and ask questions in a later post) and reconnected everything. Then I started the engine and took voltage readings at the board terminals. First of all they were -

B1 - 14.2v (yahoo!); B2 - 12.5v (boohoo 😢)

But then I pulled the blue/white wire connector off and on. There was an audible click and…

B1 - 13.8v; B2 - 13.8v…encouraging 

So I then checked voltages elsewhere…

Across starter battery 14.1v; readout on PC200 B1 - 14.2v; B2 13.6v

I’ve other issues to resolve (no interior lights), tidy up and clean/lubricate wiring and connections, plus some I might have though haven’t yet found out I do, but in the meantime it would seem, if those readings are correct, that I don’t have a charging problem..? 

Andy

That's more like what I would expect, but judging from the drop in B1 voltage after the "click", it seems as though B2 was receiving a respectable charging current.

The readouts on the PC200 can be calibrated to match meter readings, but this is best done when B2 is fully charged after a journey.  B1 has 0.2V, and B2 has 0.1V increments.

If you do not have a CBE system manual, giving procedure for the above adjustments and others, I could supply a downloaded copy.

Alan

[Alanb]

2 hours ago, arthur49 said:

"There was an audible click and…"

That to me sounds like a relay operating.  Maybe contacts stuck and now OK?  Relay contacts can 'burn' over time I believe and prevent good electrical contact

Arthur,

I hope that you will not take offence, but while relays can fail, I tend to be sceptical when the are suspected.  More frequently it is the connections to the relay that are the problem.  In this case I suspect a high resistance at the connector.

Yes contacts can be burnt, but usually when breaking the supply to inductive loads is involved.  This is not the case with split charge relay.  It will obviously carry some current when operating, but on being released by the simulated D+ going low, there should be minimal current flowing, as both batteries will have similar voltages.

Alan

[onecal]

Hi 

I really think you have all the answers you need to solve the problem or problems 

You quote you were Banned from the site , Maybe you would inform us why, surly the moderator in question gave you an answer as to why?

Posted 5 hours ago

A little later in following up (and perhaps closing this thread) because I was temporarily BANNED from the site! 

[Brodgar]

Hi Alan

Thanks for the offer. I’ve a very tattered copy of a not particularly detailed wiring diagram for the DS300 and also for the vans habitation electrics - they’re not nearly as useful as the information I’ve learned on this website from before I joined (there was a very informative post from which I learned a lot involving a guy who had a fault which turned out to be an erroneous bridge across his fridge relay) and also since. 

I’ll post a picture of my unplugged distribution board and also a schematic of a more detailed diagram I found on the web because I’d like to know which items are which on my board but annoyingly the diagram has numbers but no explanation. You’ll see what I mean. 

Cheers, Andy

[Brodgar]

On 19/12/2023 at 19:34, onecal said:

Hi 

I really think you have all the answers you need to solve the problem or problems 

You quote you were Banned from the site , Maybe you would inform us why, surly the moderator in question gave you an answer as to why?

Posted 5 hours ago

A little later in following up (and perhaps closing this thread) because I was temporarily BANNED from the site! 

Onecal

I never heard from the moderator. What appeared was some sort of generic message saying ’BANNED - you do not have permission to view this site’.

I’m assuming some sort of technical glitch perhaps because I had a thread from the site opened in my reading history on my browser from some time ago (where I was not signed in) and my own thread opened on Google (where I was signed in)

I hadn’t and still haven’t posted anything other than what you’ve now read and after I contacted ‘Contact Us’ link on the website and explained my issue the problem disappeared. 

Sorry I can’t be more sensational!

[onecal]

Hi Andy

Thanks for your reply , I think you have found your fault and hope all goes well for you re same 

May I wish you and yours a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 

Brendan