laimeduck Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Mabel, our 2005 2.8JTD Benimar was due for her MOT on Monday last week, so was duly booked in with our Garage. I had done an oil and filter change a few days before and checked all fluids and lights etc. About a mile short of the garage I got a large loud noise from underneath (I thought I had lost the exhaust) and all lights came on on dash and power lost. Power came back a bit, then intermittent noise for a few seconds, then she died. Called breakdown and waited for 2.5 hours and finally AA van arrived. Excellent chap, went through it with him and we found Auxiliary belt gone, then removed oil filler cap and turned over engine, no movement of camshaft, so Cam belt also gone. Much sucking of teeth! (Cam belt just 2 years old). He (illegally) towed me to the garage (Gross train weight exceeded) and we left it with them expecting a £1000's bill. Phone call on Thursday to say that unbelievably, there was no damage, new belts fitted, and she was ready to go! £690. It appears that the Aux belt broke, which then snarled up on the Cam belt graunching that off. How the valves etc did not get damaged no one is quite sure, but I have had a lucky escape it would seem. The van has about 58,000 miles on it and the base vehicle is about 2003. Apparently it is not a Fiat engine but an Iveco? I am religious at changing the Cambelt in good time, but have never really checked the Aux belt ... if it breaks it's an inconvenience rather than a thing that will cause damage ...or so I thought! So the moral of this story is change the Aux belt when you change the Cam belt! I am still perplexed about how the valves etc were not damaged? Jeremy 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Gosh, a similar situation to me (2.8jtd). Just before Christmas on a run the motive power died off and strange noises emitted from the van’s front. AA got to me in an hour – and yes could see a belt has failed. Van lifted to the only garage in the area (within 30 miles) who would take the van just before Christmas (a non Fiat Dealership). Turns out the auxiliary belt has failed (engine instantly over heats) , destroying the timing belt cover, contaminating the timing belt (but probably not dislodged it), and the coolant pressure increasing has popped the radiator – which was probably due for replacement anyway. The van ended up being with them over two months. They refused to accept liability for a the timing belt change without also changing the water pump – and spent many many hours trying to get the pump off. Non of this helped by the fact that neither of their two commercial vehicle lifts were quite wide enough to lift the van more three quarters of a metre off the ground so the mechanic had to work on his back. And it additionally took three and a half hours just to remove the old radiator. Finding a timing belt cover was a challenge and they had to resort to second hand in the end. I got the van back a week ago and so far appears back to normal and running well. My bill was much much larger than yours. My only consolidation is that the van is due its timing belt change this year – and the damage could have been much much worse. I suspect my usual garage would have cost half as much, but hey ho, its all swings and roundabouts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 This Fiat Forum thread may be of interest. https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/2-8jtd-cam-belt-failure.427588/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globebuster1 Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 It's normal practice to replace the Aux belt when changing the cambelt, and I'd be surprised that it wasn't changed as part of the previous cambelt replacement anyway. Not sure if it applies to the 2.8, but with the 2.3 it has to be removed to access the cambelt AFAIK I know with Alfa Romeo's it's not unusual for the Aux belt and/or tensioner to fail thus taking the cambelt and cover with it - plenty of examples of that known to owners. Most mechanics will tell you the 'stretchy' aux belt is a once only fit anyway, and a thorough check of the aux pulleys being part of the process. Relieved for you both that there was no subsequent damage the the cambelt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Globebuster1 said: It's normal practice to replace the Aux belt when changing the cambelt, and I'd be surprised that it wasn't changed as part of the previous cambelt replacement anyway. At the last cam belt change in 2019 (in a different part of the country) I asked that any auxiliary belts be checked in case they needed replacement. The van came back with the cam belt changed and the existing aux belts re-tensioned - 'apparently' their condition was fine. Lesson learned. Edited March 11 by BruceM clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Globebuster1 said: Not sure if it applies to the 2.8, but with the 2.3 it has to be removed to access the cambelt AFAIK I think that you’re correct. Because they had trouble getting hold of the timing belt cover, they changed the timing belt, water pump and aux belts so that they could start the engine and see if the engine was ok. Apparently they were concerned that the engine overheating might have damaged the cylinder head (new one on me that), and if damaged the bill might be much much larger. Apparently they’d had a motorhome in recently and the damage to that engine cost £7.5k to fix (nope I don’t have any details). My engine was fine though. So when the timing belt cover was finally obtained the aux belt had to come off again to fit the cover – more labour, sigh! Edited March 11 by BruceM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 11 Share Posted March 11 Well, there's (sort of!!! 🙂) lucky, Jeremy. It could so easily have been much worse! A very timely warning re having belts replaced regularly. I gather low mileage is a greater enemy than high mileages where belts are concerned, so your Benimar's average of only 2,800 odd MPA may have had a hand in that. I gather the belts "set" when static, and become a bit brittle when asked to bend where straight, and straighten when bent. I wonder if replacing belts earlier than scheduled where below average mileages are concerned might be a wise precaution? Be interesting to hear others' views on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 21 hours ago, laimeduck said: Apparently it is not a Fiat engine but an Iveco? The 2.8 and 2.3 engines historically used in Ducatos were all "Sofim" engines. Sofim has had a history of being joint-ventured with Fiat, owned by Iveco, and various other states inbetween. The engines were mounted N-S and RWD in the Iveco, and E-W and FWD in the Ducato, but were essentially the same engines. The difference in mounting accounts for some of the "difficulties" of access when working on Ducatos. The (2.8 and 2.2) engines in Peugeots and Citroens were different, PSA or PSA/Ford based (though this engine was used in the rarer 2.2 Ducato). The current 2.2 Ducato engine, despite being described by various outlets that should know better as the same as that in the current Boxer and Relay is still Fiat specific (rumour has it that it is based on the 2.2 litre Jeep engine). 18 hours ago, Globebuster1 said: It's normal practice to replace the Aux belt when changing the cambelt, and I'd be surprised that it wasn't changed as part of the previous cambelt replacement anyway. Not sure if it applies to the 2.8, but with the 2.3 it has to be removed to access the cambelt AFAIK I think you're probably correct, but it is odd that the specified replacement interval for the cambelt is 5 years, and for the auxiliary belt(s) 6 years. One would have thought, given the above, they would be the same. I had my cambelt replaced at 5 years last year, and requested that the auxiliary belts be replaced at the same time. That was done for just the cost of the parts, "because we're already in there". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 17 hours ago, Brian Kirby said: Well, there's (sort of!!! 🙂) lucky, Jeremy. It could so easily have been much worse! A very timely warning re having belts replaced regularly. I gather low mileage is a greater enemy than high mileages where belts are concerned, so your Benimar's average of only 2,800 odd MPA may have had a hand in that. I gather the belts "set" when static, and become a bit brittle when asked to bend where straight, and straighten when bent. I wonder if replacing belts earlier than scheduled where below average mileages are concerned might be a wise precaution? Be interesting to hear others' views on that. Brian In the past I have used two separate garages to replace the timing belts and if I remember correctly both commented that the Aux belt was OK on inspection. They are both trustworthy individuals with good knowledge. But for a few extra £'s that point is now made! Mabel may not do huge annual mileages but I do run her up regularly as I have to move her to mow the lawn, so maybe weekly during the summer months, less so in winter. Whenever I start her I always get her up to working temperature. But yes it could have been so much worse! I still simply do not understand how nothing got bent or broken? Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globebuster1 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 2 hours ago, Robinhood said: The 2.8 and 2.3 engines historically used in Ducatos were all "Sofim" engines. Sofim has had a history of being joint-ventured with Fiat, owned by Iveco, and various other states inbetween. The engines were mounted N-S and RWD in the Iveco, and E-W and FWD in the Ducato, but were essentially the same engines. The difference in mounting accounts for some of the "difficulties" of access when working on Ducatos. The (2.8 and 2.2) engines in Peugeots and Citroens were different, PSA or PSA/Ford based (though this engine was used in the rarer 2.2 Ducato). The current 2.2 Ducato engine, despite being described by various outlets that should know better as the same as that in the current Boxer and Relay is still Fiat specific (rumour has it that it is based on the 2.2 litre Jeep engine). I think you're probably correct, but it is odd that the specified replacement interval for the cambelt is 5 years, and for the auxiliary belt(s) 6 years. One would have thought, given the above, they would be the same. I had my cambelt replaced at 5 years last year, and requested that the auxiliary belts be replaced at the same time. That was done for just the cost of the parts, "because we're already in there". I didn't realise there was a different time-scale on the aux belt. I use two different local independent garages for all my quite varied range of vehicles, both always replace what they refer to as the 'stretchy' belts, and both would always check the tensioners/pulleys as a matter of course - in fact they insist on it! Still, it's good news that neither Jeremy or Bruce have suffered any long-term damage👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Hi It's good practice to always replace anything that touches the cambelt and of course any auxiliary belts/belts at the time of replacement at the same time . Why take a chance when doing the job and do it right Yes many will say ah I got away with it and the water pumps and Aux belts are ok and don't need to be changed. Just too difficult for some , again where are these people when it goes wrong? . All grand until one fails and it all goes wrong You were lucky Jeremy , it did not wreck engine. Glad it turned out OK Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted April 1 Author Share Posted April 1 Cautionary tale part 2 ......... We survived the belts (Aux and Cambelt) breaking on our 2.8JTD 2005 Benimar but since then have an additional problem. The electric radiator fan is running more or less continuously sometime from a cold start, other times from when the engine gets up to temperature. On stopping the engine the fan runs on for up to 30 secs before turning off. It never did this before the belts breaking. For the 14 years we have owed the van ... the fan used to only cut in after a long climb in the Alps. On a normal journey the engine temperature never went past half way. Now the engine temperature doesn't even get up to halfway (on the instrument cluster gauge). So my thoughts are that the belts breaking have caused this problem. I returned the van back to the garage who did the belts .... they have checked the fan connectors and replaced the coolant temp sensor that feeds the CPU but that has not solved the problem. They are going to recheck various things on Thursday. I have asked them to check if the broken belts flailing around have damaged the wiring? Does anyone have any suggestions or experience as to why this is happening and/or what I should ask them to look at? Thanks Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 Very long shot, but Bruce said his engine overheated, if yours did the same maybe this dislodged some dirt in the cooling system and this is now restricting and/or redirecting flow, maybe it needs a flush. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) I’m not able to offer any definitive advice as I don’t know enough about the engine to know whether the coolant sensor controls the fans or whether there’s an engine oil sensor (?) maybe that the cpu monitors and then the cpu controls the fans – but . . . when I first got this van the temp dial on the dash never sat at the mid point when the engine appeared to be up to temperature (a known issue on this engine apparently). The sensor and thermostat were changed with no effect. However, putting an analyser on the engine indicated that as far as the cpu was concerned, the engine was up to temperature. So, as I’m now aware that the cpu is responsible for operating the fans then in the first instance I think I’d put an analyser on your engine and read what temperature the cpu is reading. If it’s not reading high and the fans are coming on I’d suspect an electrical short of some kind. If it is reading high (and hence turning on the fans) then the garage can compare it to the actual engine temperature taken with an external probe and reach a conclusion of what to investigate next from there – ie a coolant blockage or an electrical short. Incidentally, I never did discover how to get my dash temperature gauge to display correctly. Edited April 2 by BruceM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandJP Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 I am having my 2018 registered Ford Transit based Chausson done in May as they now say 6 years or 60,000 miles. I aked what the job entailed and this is the reply along with the quote by Allen Ford of Swindon. "I have spoken to my parts team and we can confirm your vehicle is eligable for the timing belt replacement which would include: Renew Fuel Injection Pump Drive Belt Where Appropriate. Includes: Time To Renew Tensioner And Idler Pulleys £1060.04 including vat and fitting time". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted April 2 Author Share Posted April 2 Colin & Bruce thanks for your comments. My engine did not overheat, it stopped about 20-30 seconds after the belt broke and the temperature gauge was "in the middle" ...quite normal after it stopped. As I understand it there are two fans ..... one works off the temperature gauge, the other off the temperature sensor via the CPU. I would imagine these are activated by relays, so I will get the garage to check those. The most logical answer I think is that a wire was damaged when the belt was flailing, so it will be a case of finding that? So at the moment I am going to ask the garage to check the : wire connections for breaks/shorts/continuity Relays Water system for blockages See what temperature the CPU is reading If they have no luck finding the cause, as a last resort I will probably install or suggest that they install a manual switch so that I can turn the fan off or on. I am happy to monitor the temperature gauge and flick the switch if it is needed. (I know that the instrument temperature gauge worked .... when going down long hills I usually slip into neutral and drift down at around 60-65mph on tickover. Sometimes for a few minutes. The gauge drops one or two needle widths when I do this. I know this may be frowned upon by some but I have always done it whether in car or motorhome ... a hangover from student days when I had no money for petrol!) Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 The other thing which causes fan to switch on is A/C, and it is usually as you describe, i.e. from a low engine temp, and with a overrun after engine is switched off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted April 5 Author Share Posted April 5 Cautionary Tale Part 3 ..... and finally..... I am pleased to report that the problem has finally been resolved. The garage were running all sorts of tests today and obviously had to get engine up to temperature and while "idling" at 2000 rpm there was a bang followed by a cloud of smoke from engine. Turns out an air conditioning pipe had burst .... and then the cooling fan was operating properly as it should. The theory is that the pressure in the Aircon system rose, and the CPU thought that the van was overheating so switched on the elctric fan which stayed on. The pipe rupturing reduced the pressure so CPU said not overheating and I don't need to turn fan on. Maybe a blockage in the AirCon system somewhere? The Garage (who run and maintain a fleet of coaches and minibuses) have never seen the like before. I told them not to bother repairing the AirCon .... we never use it anyway .... except for me running it briefly each time I drive just to keep the coolant cycling. So Colin you guessed right in your last post ... thanks! (We will never know if the belts breaking up caused this .... two of the AirCon pipes run very close to the belts under the battery tray and may have been hit dislodging some crud in the pipes, but there are no obvious signs that they were?) Thank heavens the AirCon pipe burst otherwise we would still be looking at the fan. Now to find and pull the fuse for the AirCon so I don't accidentally put it on ........ Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 1 hour ago, laimeduck said: So Colin you guessed right in your last post ... thanks! It took a while to register that we have a similar problem on one of our Suzi's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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