"fully winterised" motorhome..........my a*** !

[crinklystarfish]

So it’s double floored, the void of which benefits from some kind of (at least residual) heat, and the pump / pipes sit in a box, in a cupboard? The ‘vans interior was also fully heated the night before the freezing. 

Seems weird to me that in these circumstances there should be a freezing issue on anything other than horribly exposed tanks / pipe work.  

I’m guessing it must have been a really extreme night, possibly lower than -10 with wind chill, in which case it’s unlikely to be the manufacturers fault – or ever happen again; or there’s some other factor at play that’s so far not been obvious to handyman.

I’d be asking myself if it was definitely the pump that had frozen and looking around for any other likely spot where the water supply might be more exposed than the ‘box in a cupboard’. 

If I was absolutely certain the issue was in the pump area, I’d register a complaint with the dealer – who knows what that might bring? – but would then probably just do the job myself to a standard I know I’d be happy with.

[Guest Tracker]

Pump freezing can be an inconvenient disaster with water leaks and split seals etc., and it might be worth contemplating relocating the pump in a heated part of the van if it is unduly exposed?

[handyman]

crinklystarfish - 2007-12-20 9:51 AM

 

So it’s double floored, the void of which benefits from some kind of (at least residual) heat, and the pump / pipes sit in a box, in a cupboard? The ‘vans interior was also fully heated the night before the freezing. 

Seems weird to me that in these circumstances there should be a freezing issue on anything other than horribly exposed tanks / pipe work. 

 

 

It was an extreme night, thats not the point. If you open a locker within the living area, its really cold. Heat within this sealed area will go out the insulated wall, quicker than the heat from the living area would penetrate the door.

 

the point is its easy to have designed this boxed area to be heated..........its a sloppy lazy design, thats it, easily fixed, but most annoying............I never froze, therefore the pump shouldnt have frozen

 

[michele]

I'm so lost past the plot now .

So can anyone tell me do any vans /makes have a minus level quoted or are they all the same eg any van at minus 10 being the factory standard will freeze . Does every van differ ? who quotes these figures or isnt it quoted . Should I be looking in my book to see what the van has been tested at to give it a winterisation sticker .

God I hope that makes sense.

[davenewellhome]

Well Michele the first thing to do is RTFI (read the flippin' instructions) so dig out your owners handbook and read it. "Not enough hours in the day" did I hear you say? Well, with the greatest of respect, you spend lots of time on here that could be used to RTFI :D

 

D.

[michele]

Dave point taken except I would be best leaving him to do it .

I would probably cock it up anyway I know that I am here but I'm in between kids just keep flicking threw in the middle of doing the kids.

 

;-)

[Brian Kirby]

davenewell@home - 2007-12-20 11:15 AM Well Michele the first thing to do is RTFI (read the flippin' instructions) so dig out your owners handbook and read it. "Not enough hours in the day" did I hear you say? Well, with the greatest of respect, you spend lots of time on here that could be used to RTFI :D D.

Ooooooooh!  Naughty Dave!  Ahem, my underline!  :-)

He's right though, not having time to read the instructions is a bit of a thin excuse.  Failure to prioritise boring things over pleasure, more like!  :-)

Incidentally, there are, I think three, standards of "winterisation" laid down in one of the EC standards.  I believe Dethleffs has the best reputation in this area, which seems to be claimed by them as the reason they are popular in Scandinavia.  However, I think these merely record the energy consumed to maintain a set internal temperature (or possibly to reach it from cold) with the vehicle immobilised in a cold chamber at varying specified temperatures.  Thus, trying to establish that the frozen pipes were a significant failure might be just a bit problemmatic.

[michele]

Ok If I'm totally honest it bores me s**tless and i cannot take my eye off the kids .anyway I wont bore you all with the fact of what it takes to do special needs but you really do need eyes in the back of your head .

 

When I get down time the last thing I want to do is RTFI ..

Anyway I dont want you all to do my job for me I wasnt being snidey I just thought that you guys in the know would know if there was a standard - ---Minus set for all vans that are winterised .

;-)

[crinklystarfish]

handyman - 2007-12-20 10:34 AM/> .  It was an extreme night, thats not the point...

Well, it probably is. If indeed it was the pump that froze. 

There are limits beyond which it's unreasonable to expect our vehicles to operate properly. 

Anyway, the solution is obvious, assuming it is the pump's location that is the problem; and you intend to venture into mountains in the winter again. 

I wish you well in your modifications.

[handyman]

its not the point.............it would freeze at anything below zero.......you would expect a winterised van to work at minus 1 for example. If it was designed correctly in the first place, it would have been fine. I would think you could be sitting in the van at minus 20 with a 6kw gas heater, and still be toasty warm.

 

 

And it was the pump, the pressure cylinder, and the hoses leading to them, that all froze solid

[crinklystarfish]

The extremity of the weather really is the point.

I hope you get it sorted though, and I'm sure the extra 'warm air feed' will do the trick.

I'm off to bang my head against a wall for a bit now, it'll be a better use of my time.

[handyman]

i will repeat for the third time.............the design means it would freeze at any temp under zero......this isnt an extreme temp

[handyman]

had a further look at the problem, and the waste pipes (3) all exit in this box as well. When you look at them at the angle they have been drilled through to the waste tank, they havent sealed the clearance between the pipe and the hole *-)

 

Mabye 1mm all round at most, but enough for any heat in the box to be lost *-)

 

 

Again, just poor design, but most annoying for a 30K van.

[Brian Kirby]

This may help a bit.  There is a technical leaflet in the non-members part of the Caravan Club website, with a title along the lines of "Insulation problems with caravans", from which I have 'lifted' the following extract - thank you Caravan Club.

"Caravans built to European Standards (ie models from 1999 onwards) are given one of three grades to indicate the effectiveness of their insulation and their heating systems.

• Grade 1 rating specifies a minimum degree of insulation but does not measure the capabilities of the heating system. These caravans should be considered suitable for ‘seasonal’ rather than all year round use.

• Grade 2 rating requires the same level of insulation but adds a requirement for a heating system capable of maintaining the interior at 20 °C when it is 0 °C outside. This grade should be suitable for ‘extended seasonal’ usage, or all year round in reasonably favourable climates like the UK.

• Grade 3 has a higher standard for both insulation and heating, such that the interior can be kept at 20 °C when it is -15 °C outside. It also requires that all water systems will operate when the outside temperature is -15 °C. These caravans should be habitable all year round in almost any weather conditions.

The standard for motorcaravans is somewhat different and has not yet been universally adopted by all manufacturers. There are three grades, but these indicate heating classification, not insulation performance. In fact, there is no specific requirement for motorcaravans to have insulation although clearly most, if not all, will have. Grade 1 means the heating has not been rated. Grade 2 heating will achieve 20 °C inside when it is 0 °C outside. Grade 3 heating will achieve 20 °C inside when it is -5 °C outside and also requires that the fresh (but not waste) water supply must operate when it is -15 °C outside."

The document is dated September 2007. 

The relevant standard is EN1645-1 (In UK: BS EN 1645-1), and the grades are laid down in the standard together, it seems, with the means for testing them.  I say "it seems" because the standard is not, so far as I could tell, available on the web and copies, grace of BSI, cost £138 each.  Sorry folks, but I'm not really that desperate to find out!

What is really daft is the omission of an insulation standard for motorhomes.  I can understand this presents difficulties because the cab area will always be poor in this respect, but what they are doing is simply inviting the manufacturers to install ever larger heaters (Does that hybrid gas/electric Truma make more sense now?) to meet the grade 3 standard.  This merely encourages them to be profligate with our gas and electricity while skimping on the insulation.  Indeed, it seems to me that a grade II van can be re-classified as grade III by merely increasing the heater capacity.  How clever is that? 

Still, as handyman's water froze up and he seems reasonably satisfied the externals were not below -15C (but at altitude in the Alps they quite possibly were at some point in the night), and provided Euramobil have claimed compliance with EN1645-1 Grade III, he would seem to have some grounds for complaint.  Since the Germans seem generally to respect their standards more than we do (It will be DIN-EN1645-1 in Germany), I still think it will be quicker to contact them direct, rather than via the UK dealer, but I'd guess the outcome will be much the same either way.

Hope this helps/is of interest.

[handyman]

superb stuff, very interesting...........

 

 

I have written a quick email to euramobil, just to see what they say. As for the dealer, i will leave all this till new year, as nothing will happen now anyway, so close to christmas/new year. Will await a reply from euramobil (almost certain they will just ignore it, as a lot of companys fall down on customer service when its a email).

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

At the front of the 2006 Eura Mobil UK brochure is a glossary that includes a definition of the two "Suitable for winter use" categories that apply to the company's motorhomes.

 

One category is defined as:

 

"Classification EN-1646 - A high standard that requires heating capacity of the interior to 20°C within 2 hours with an external temperature of -15. An hour after the start of the test, water supply reaches maximum capacity and must stay ice-free and operate fully."

 

While the other's definition is:

 

"The test consists in heating the interior using the standard equipment heating with an external temperature of 0°C. Within 2 hours the inside temperature must register at least 20°C, measured at 1m above floor-level in the centre of the interior. At a distance of 20cm from the walls and the hood the temperature must not be below 13°C."

 

There are also explanations of the meaning of 'double floor' (".....Makes the vehicle 100% frost-free, especially the plumbing....") and 'functional flooring' ("Sandwich construction with insulation up to 110mm. All the gas, water and electric pipes and cables are housed in this insulating layer.")

 

The glossary definitions/explanations identify the Eura Mobil model-ranges to which they apply. Winter use certification to EN-1646 applies to Sport, Activa, Contura, Integra and Profila Alcove ranges, all of which (unsurprisingly) have double-floors that can be heated by the motorhome's on-board heating system. Only the Profila range (of which handyman's P-622SB is a member) has 'functional flooring' (that can't be heated by the on-board heating system) and is stated as meeting the "external temperature of 0°C" test but is not certified to EN-1646.

 

Although the 2006 glossy brochure makes the above plain, there is some potential for confusion where the related Technical Data leaflet is concerned, as the "Body" description for Profila Alcove has been copied word-for-word to the Profila section giving the impression that the latter range also has an insulated double floor. Being very familiar with Profila (as I had once contemplated buying one) I noticed this error immediately on reading the leaflet, but I didn't think it mattered much as it's pretty obvious Profila has a single floor .

 

[michele]

Handyman ,

Looks like you have been had over then Its not a fully winterised one .

 

Good write up Derek made things clearer for me anyway thanks.

[handyman]

Mmmmmm, it even said it was a winterised van on the advert, that i printed out at the time, and when i looked online at the time, most, but not all, of the same van adverts had winterised on the description.

 

O well, as i said, it all worked fine at this very low temp, except for this 'box' which can easily be heated, meaning then everything will work fine down to minus 10 in a gale.

[Brian Kirby]

That bit of information from Derek seems pretty conclusive.  So, we now get to the interesting bit!  How/why did handyman get the impression his was to EN 1645-1 Grade 3, as opposed to what appears to be Grade 2? 

If he misread the brochure, poor chap, he has no argument with anyone.  On the other hand, if the dealer sold it as being to the higher spec, and that was a factor that persuaded him to buy, he has an argument with the dealer.  Problem is, I bet the wily old dealer never put that bit of good news in writing, so proof will be difficult in the extreme!  I'll also be bold enough to suggest the dealer (salesman) probably didn't, and still doesn't, understand the difference, so would have caused confusion whatever he said!  Funny old world, isn't it?

[handyman]

i've got a print out of their advert, and it says its winterised

[Brian Kirby]

Yes, but that is a non-specific term without a defined meaning.  So far as I've been able to find out, it is not a word used in any of the relevant standards.  Unfortunately, your van could easily be claimed to be winterised, simply by having an inboard fresh water tank.  Besides, I think it is probably to EN 1645-1 Grade 2, which implies a degree of winterisation, although I note from Derek's reading of the brochure that Euramobil don't seem to specifically claim that. 

However, even if you had the whole brochure, if you turn to the back page, or thereabouts, there is almost bound to be a statement, in small print, that says "nothing contained herein is intended to be contractual" or similar.  Some are more straightforward than others, but I've not seen one yet without something along those lines.

If the rest of the van is good, and you seem generally pleased, and as you were warm up the Alps in December, I think your van is, actually, pretty good.  I still think your plan of a neat DIY fix is the best way out here - life's just too short!

[handyman]

Brian, your a very level headed man

 

Other members on here have already PMed me saying they can arrange a 'torching' of the dealers premises (lol)

[michele]

:D

[Brian Kirby]

handyman - 2007-12-20 9:10 PM Brian, your a very level headed man Other members on here have already PMed me saying they can arrange a 'torching' of the dealers premises (lol)

I have to be - insufficient hair to cover any other shape :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

As far as I'm concerned Eura Mobil's 2006 brochure made apparent the Profila range's winter use suitability.

 

What definitely wasn't mentioned in the brochure (though the photos provide visual clues) is how difficult it may be to remove/replace a rear wheel on a Mk 6 Transit-based Profila or Profila Alcove. The design of the rear wheel-arch clearly causes about one third of the wheel to be 'masked' and I understand that the effect of this obstruction is that rear-wheel changing can prove a major challenge even for professionals. A Profila Alcove owner told me recently it had taken around an hour per rear wheel when he had the tyre-valves replaced on his motorhome.

 

It's very noticeable on current model Profila and Profila Alcove motorhomes built on the Mk 7 Transit chassis that the wheel-arch shape has been totally revised to fully expose the rear wheel.