kevandali Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 This time I will not drag things out but get professional help earlier, but just in case you lot can help. Went in the van and the rear habitation lights did not work, found a blown fuse, changed and all fine..... except that the rear lights are on permanently. Only just found out, removed the fuse and it was a little warm but rear lights went off. Obviously there is a short somehwere, my simple question is:- Anyone have any ideas on whereabouts to look? I will take all the light covers off tomorrow and check for water but not really sure what to do other than check all visible wiring. Thanks in advance Kev :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 .....well, we didn't really believe you'd fixed the brake-light issue at the end of the last installment. ;-) I assume that the fuse replaced was the one at position 2 on the PSU? As you've had you rear lights "played with" already (If I recall correctly), then there is a chance that whoever ran the new wire also connected up to the rear lights (or has put a screw through a wire to the same). John (Brambles) gave a good overview in the previous thread, which I repeat here: Whilst the brake light circuit , in the main, is Fiat wiring and should be separate the high level light is not. It will be wired down to the main brake lights and the wiring quite possibly mixed in with Swift fitted harnesses. What is also not clear is if Swift extended the original Fiat harness or started again tapping into it at the front of the chassis and ran them together. This would be unusual unless an Alko Chassis. Even then it does not make sense to bundle the Fiat harness with the motorhome builders harness because of EMC issues. So the common link here is possibly and probably the high level brake light wiring. Tie this in with the problems you have had with interior lights and sounds very much like you have serious damage to a harness somewhere...and probably in the roof or rear. Have you had any additional equipment fitted at any time where a screw might have been put into a harness. A solar panel, TV antenna, roof box, rear cycle carrier ...anything. What about any smopke alarmsinside..could a screw innocently have punctured a harness. Whatever, something is shorting to the brake light feed and sound like it derives from the lighting circuit or power supply output. I think if it was an earthing problem like Brian sugggested there would be other rear cluster lamps coming on. I think my caution of good practice to always fitting a fuse in series with a bridging wire makes real sense now, and as Robin suggested the old broken harness must be cut at either end. This wiring really does sound quite a mess, but if only the brake light is a problelm now, it may not be far away from total fix. I would certainly try to trace the wiring back from the high-level brake light, and check whether the previous work erroneously added this into the rear-lighting circuit, or a screw has penetrated the wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Fuse is gettinmg warm but not blowing, so is probbaly just got an extra load on it rather than a dead short. Fuses run at or close to capciy wil run warm. Its how they work,m and then overheat with too great a load. About 1 and 1/2 times the rating. So warming of fuse may or may not be OK. You need to measure teh current through teh fuse and chekit matches lihts whoch are on. So why can lights not be turmed off? This has to be something to do with the control panel, or something making the control panel turn on the lights. I shall now search back for other thread and links to cct diagrams. On the other hand -- can I just go and hide in the small room upstairs. Just kidding. or maybe not kidding as I could go and have a think about this rather than thinking aloud as am just now. Jon. edit - found the diagrams. http://www.sargentltd.co.uk/Swift_Motorhome_schematics_2006.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Thanks for the diagram, Brambles, the rear habitation lights can be turned off normally using the on/off switch and all work fine, its just that with the habitation lights on or off, the rear lights outside the van are on, the only time the rear lights go off is when I pull the habitation lights fuse (2nd fuse down) Will try and take a better look tomorrow as hope to use the van at the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Kev, I may have jumped to conclusions from the previous thread. Is it now simply your rear habitation lighting at fault, or does it still involve the rear brake lights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 The rear habitation lights all work ok but at the same time the brake lights are on permanently, the break lights only go off when the fuse for the habitation lights is removed. Have emailed the chap who sorted the habitation lights the last time they didn't work as I know he ran in a new supply to the habitation lights but waiting to hear back from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ignore my initial ramblings above ... reread initial post and understand better symptoms of problem. So it really appears ther is a shot somwhere between teh lighting circuit and rear brake lights. Is ther anyway a short could have devekoped agian in the section ypu repaired under the battery tray - i.e. to put ot bluntly you have botched it. Just want to eliminate this as a possibility. Then its back to previous suggestions highlighted by Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 kevandali - 2012-01-23 8:29 PM The rear habitation lights all work ok but at the same time the brake lights are on permanently, the break lights only go off when the fuse for the habitation lights is removed. Have emailed the chap who sorted the habitation lights the last time they didn't work as I know he ran in a new supply to the habitation lights but waiting to hear back from him. In which case, my restatement of Johns post on the previous thread (as above) still stands. My suspicion is that he has run a new wire, and wired all the stuff he can find in the back to it (and included the HL brake light). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So the question now is...Do your habitation lights come on with the brake lights? A good starting point would probably be the rear high level brake light and follow the wiring from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Kev, re your request for wiring charts, I have access to wiring charts. Will see what I can do to copy wiring info. I have access to wiring charts and to be honest not sure how much they will help you. They are all in bits and you need to cross reference all the time. However I will see if I can copy and post relevant diagrams and info. Will be in drips and drabs as I find info. What I can tell you is the brake light circuit is coloured red/black cables. Code R/N which I imagine is Rouge/Noir. Just thought of something. The thebrake lights are wired separately from the cab at front. This means you can isolate each side by unplugging a connector. Ths could be a start to determining which loom, left or right, is being shorted to. Now I am assuming if the brake lights turn on the interior lights come on. If you remove the small panel far right and low down on dashboard. It has two screws with plastic shrouds round them. Behind against the side of the wheel arch bitty is a white 8 way connector ( it might be 10 way ( need to check) . It connects the rear light cluster on offside to the main wiring at front. If you unplug the two halves then the rear offside light cluster will stop working. You can now check if brake lights still put interior lights on. (alternatively see if interior lights puts what brake lights on) You can repeat this on the equivalent connector on the left side of dash behind the fuse panel cover. The reason I went to right 1st is because there is no fuse box to confuse and easier to locate the connector. Now you know what it looks like you can find the equivalent on left. If you can find which side is shorted to the interior lights you can then go to the appropriate rear light cluster and start tracing for the cable which goes up to the high level brake light. Do not worry, you do not need to remove lower dash, just the only pic I have showing rear light connector for offside.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 kevandali - 2012-01-23 8:29 PM The rear habitation lights all work ok but at the same time the brake lights are on permanently, the break lights only go off when the fuse for the habitation lights is removed. Have emailed the chap who sorted the habitation lights the last time they didn't work as I know he ran in a new supply to the habitation lights but waiting to hear back from him. Kev, further clarification. Do the rear habitation lights switch on/off with the lightswitch, and if so, does this also switch on/off the brake lights, or is the only way you can switch the brake lights off (with the habitation lights functioning) to remove the fuse? If there is a short or rogue connection, it will give us a clue on its location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Thanks for all the replies, the brake lights only go off when the fuse is removed, habitation lights work ok, won't have time to take a look at the moment as have just ripped off the gas storage door, wasn't fastened and wind blew it open as pulling off drive and caught on a post!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 going to have a go tomorrow and try and work out what is happening. At the moment the brake lights come on if the control switch on the panel is habitation or vehicle position, when the control panel switch is in the middle position then the brake lights don't come on and they work correctly when the brake pedal is pressed. When the control switch is not in the middle position, it doesn't matter wether or not the habitation light switch is on or off, the brake lights are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just come in for a warm, have been crawling under the van and can't see anything obvious. Took the high level light off and disconnected the wires to it but the two lower brake lights remained on. Going to now check the engine compartment area just in case I have bodged something during my last repair of the step. (ignore the above, just going to look under the van again, couldn't delete the post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Took Brambles advice and took both sides of the dash apart to find the connectors that had the red and black wire connected. Unplugged the right hand side one and re connected and then unplugged the left hand one and then re connected and all that happened on both occasions was the back drivers side brake light went out and the passenger side break light and the high level light remained on. Not sure if this helps me in any way, just wish I could just take it into an electrical place and get it sorted but wallet won't allow that to happen. Going to re check all the wiring again now. Any ideas? have added pictures of the connectors just to make sure I have the right ones. (the habitation lights do not come on with the break lights when the break is pressed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes, it is sigtnificant. If the rear brake lside light went on pn both occassions respectively, it means the short is not to the wiring loom under the vehicle at rear. It also means the high level brake light is not wired to the the rear looms but all the way to the loom at the cab end, forward of these two connectors. Let me think about this again and look at ciruit diagrams and loom locations. Feeling is the brake light circuit does not go under the bonnet but remains in cab under dash. So, somewhere the high level brake light is wired into this loom, possibly at the brake light switch, but whatever you need to find the cable from the high level brake light and the route it runs. It is unlikely to be in the roof and more likely along with cables from cab to the main control box., then to rear and up the rear wall somewhere or somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Kev, What was the 'repair' the auto-electrican made to fix your hab lights a while ago and can you try removing it? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Drat, I may habve made an assumption I shoudl not have done. Groundimng for the rrar lights may also be through teh two connectors diconnected. Is there a black cable on teh connectors - I cannot see in your pics. The cct diagrams do not show an ground cable in connector, but location diagrams show the grounding for the lights is fprward of teh connector so is confusing. So now what you need to do is go back to the connectors and disconnect again and measure volts on the Black/red cable from rear harness with high level light illuminated. In fact measure both harnesses when disconnected and see which side is carrying 12 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 keith, sounds like a good idea, as maybe he was fixing something associated with the damaged harness at battery tray, and now it is the fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Have retired from fault finding for the day but found the following:- Disconnected the wiring repair that the auto electric had made and made no difference to the brake lights being on permanently. The disconnected wire provided power to the bathroom light and reading lights in the rear lounge, the roof lights still worked ok without the repair in place. (the repair was supplying power to the bathroom and reading lights from a ten amp fuse in the wardrobe) The cables from the high brake light are red/black and black and disappear to the right inside the rear wall with another two cables, black and yellow. Not a clue where these go yet but don't appear to be under the van. Not checked any voltages as had to put everything back together as will be using the van tomorrow/Friday and when driving everything works ok. Thanks for all the help, battle will resume after the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 kevandali - 2012-01-25 2:53 PM...and disappear to the right inside the rear wall with another two cables, black and yellow. Not a clue where these go yet but don't appear to be under the van...Kev,As these wire colours do not appear on the Swift wiring diagram and without knowing Fiat wiring colours I'd guess these could be a feed dropping down to the number plate light.Perhaps Brambles could confirm what a Yellow wire does as we already know Black is negative/ground.It sounds as though you have a short between the high level brake light feed and the wire from the power supply unit to the rear lights switch. I suggest you carry on chasing the high level brake light wires when you resume.Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Number plate light, if Fiat, I think would be a green cable. However you are probably not far off as I think it is the wires for the high up side markers at rear. This is clearly Swift wiring so why the heck have they missed this and the high level brake light off their circuit diagrams? One can only scratch ones head but maybe because not directly related to habitation wiring they have ommitted even though they fit. edit - a few typos!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Keithl - 2012-01-25 3:16 PM Kev, As these wire colours do not appear on the Swift wiring diagram and without knowing Fiat wiring colours I'd guess these could be a feed dropping down to the number plate light. Perhaps Brambles could confirm what a Yellow wire does as we already know Black is negative/ground. Keith. My suspicion is that they ARE shown, but that the wiring digram is both incomplete, and in error for the high-level running lights and brake light. The thing that has confused me from scratch in the area of the rear lighting circuit is that marked "EMC lights", the circuit for which is shown combined with the rear habitation light circuit, and thus implicitly fed down two legs, one through the EMC-relay, and one bypassing it! This doesn't make any sense to me. If you reference the other digrams in the same set (Kontiki, etc), the similar lights are labelled "EMC Running Lights", and are not connected in circuit with the rear habitation lights. I would surmise that a joint in the circuit is erroneously being shown at the point I've identified below. In addition, for the Sundance, the wire to the "EMC lights" is slate and yellow, quite possibly the "black and yellow" wire Kev has found. The main problem I have is that there are no switching arrangements shown at all for these "EMC lights" (which presumably should be integrated into the vehicle electrics). Whatever, given the description of the symptoms, the "repair" that was made to the rear lights, and assuming there is really a gap in the circuit where I've indicated, my best guess is that there is a short in the OLD branch on the pink feed to the switch that controls the circuit that has been replaced, and the slate/yellow wire, or an additional (different) wire for the HL brake light alone. It still confuses me, however, how that slate/yellow wire is switched (especially if it is used to feed both the running lights and the HL brake light). Is the symptom of the problem only the brake lights coming on, or do the two HL running lights at the back illuminate as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Just a thought. Is there not a separation in the way the H/L markers are switched? That is to say, if the road lights are switched on via the light switch, the H/L lights should all illuminate. However, if the parking lights are switched on (if I remember, by turning the ignition key back counterclockwise against a lock) only the front and rear sidelights come on, and the H/L lights do not. Might that explain the by-pass wiring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevandali Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Just got in, then nipped out to check which lights came on at the back. Turned the panel switch to the habitation position, no brake lights came on. Turned the habitation roof light switch on, habitation lights came on but still no brake lights. Realised that the mains breaker was off so turned that on, brake lights came on, no other lights just the two low level lights and the single high level brake light. Turned the mains breaker off and the brake lights remained on, turned main control panel switch from the habitation position to the middle position and back several times and each time the habitation position was selected the brake lights came on, going to try it again in a minute and will edit this post if something changes. God knows why selecting the mains power should start the problem off again?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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