Replacing a chassis cowl on an A class motorhome

[Algernon]

A question for the technical bods, please

 

I was wondering if it was possible to change the chassis cowl on a 2002 fiat Ducato A class for a new Euro 6 Ducato

 

Ours is on a tag axle with Alko chassis. The habitation part of the vehicle is perfect an the Alko part is also fine.

 

However there is rust in the top of the strut housing and on the sub-frame mount.

 

A new Ducato chassis cost around 35k. For this sort of money I would end up with a motorhome that is emissions compliant for the foreseeable future and set up for another 200,000 miles.

 

If this is possible or has been done before then where to go, coach builders, converters?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[Will86]

No comment I cannot work out what you are trying to do. And there is a 15 year difference.

[Algernon]

A chassis cowl is basically an engine mounted on the cab platform with only the steering and dash board etc. intact. No doors, windscreen or cab.

 

This is what is used to build an A class motorhome. In the case where the Alko chassie/running gear is used for the back end the chassis cowl is bolted to it, usually a modification (dropper brackets) is need to drop the floor level to suit the Alko

 

So what I want to do is replace the mechanical front end of a 2002 A class with a new one!

 

 

[Keithl]

Algernon,

 

I wouldn't say it was impossible as nothing is ever impossible but to be frankly honest it wouldn't work without massive effort on the part of the person undertaking the task!

 

Fiat completely revised the Ducato for 2006 with the change to the X2/50 model and this would be your biggest stumbling block. It would not be just the physical act of mating one to the other but then all the myriad of electronics and ECU's which would have to be made to talk to each other.

 

You may have more luck finding a good condition pre 2006 model (X2/44 IIRC) and using that as a donor.

 

I honestly think that if you tried moving your A Class body and Al Ko chassis extensions to a 'new' 'front end' chassis/running gear that the project would either get abandoned half-way due to complications or the cost would far exceed the cost to buy a newer vehicle!

 

My opinion!!!

 

Keith.

 

PS I have attached a typical photo of a Fiat Al-Ko chassis cab as used for an A Class MH.

[Algernon]

Hello Keith

 

Thanks for the reply, and hopefully this will lead to further posts

 

With regard to the ECU and the electrics would this not be just the rear and side marker lights that would need to be connected, apart from the connection to the leisure battery. All the other electrics would be connected?

 

A new Frankia of similar size would be in the region of 110k to replace, so I am looking at alternatives. I could of course just weld the strut housing but was thinking also about the longevity of older motorhomes vis a vis emissions. There must be a lot of up market motorhomes that would benefit from a new chassis cowl.

 

 

It is a bit like my old broom, it has had two new heads and two handles, it is about 20 years old now!!

 

Thanks again

 

Algernon

[PJay]

Algernon - 2017-08-14 10:03 PM

 

Hello Keith

 

Thanks for the reply, and hopefully this will lead to further posts

 

With regard to the ECU and the electrics would this not be just the rear and side marker lights that would need to be connected, apart from the connection to the leisure battery. All the other electrics would be connected?

 

A new Frankia of similar size would be in the region of 110k to replace, so I am looking at alternatives. I could of course just weld the strut housing but was thinking also about the longevity of older motorhomes vis a vis emissions. There must be a lot of up market motorhomes that would benefit from a new chassis cowl.

 

 

It is a bit like my old broom, it has had two new heads and two handles, it is about 20 years old now!!

 

Thanks again

 

Algernon

 

Surely if you did this, the "new" van would not be a Frankia? Not easy to sell at the end of the day. Better to part exchange for a newer van.

Re your Broom. Thats not the same one if it has 2 new heads and handles!! I do have brooms that still have the same head/handles, and are 20 years old !

 

PJay

[Derek Uzzell]

Algernon

 

I’m doubtful that Fiat would supply a single Ducato X290 Euro 6 cowl to a non-commercial buyer. They MIGHT supply a chassis-cowl unit (as shown on this webpage)

 

https://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/Models/Ducato_Conversion

 

but presumably you’d be looking to attach the existing AL-KO tandem-axle chassis to the new cowl.

 

I believe there’s not a hope in hell of this idea succeeding - it’s like trying to cross a salmon with a chicken. And even if it were theorectically possible to meld the old body and rear AL-KO chassis to a new cowl, nobody in their right mind would buy the resultant hybrid.

 

Better just to get the rust sorted out

[StuartO]

I agree with Derek about the value/unsaleability of the resulting mixed era MH but the question was would it be possible the put an old body on a new chassis cowl?  It might be possible to buy an insurance write-off (due to body damage) to source a suitable newish vehicle, even if you cannot buy one from Fiat.  The basic of the chassis might be entirely compatible.

 

I suppose it would depend how the original MH body was built and attched to the chassis.  As I understand it most MHs are built on to the floor platform, which is mounted on the chassis first. The floor panel on some MHs is a complex double skin structure rather than a flat piece of plywood.  All the wiring and pipe runs go into place first, then the furniture units, then the walls and finally the roof.  It might be possible to simple lift the original floor (and attached superstructure) off the original chassis in one go but it doesn't seem very likely.

 

Possible but not likely to be easy or cost-effective is perhaps the answer to the OP's question.

 

[Brock]

The vintage commercial vehicle scene has plenty of bodgers and fixer-uppers who go about rebuilding vehicles from donor parts. They make a very good job of it but it often takes years because of the need to obtain donor parts.

 

However, if you are serious and want to have a stab in the dark, then Cobus [near Filey] is a leader in renovating old buses/coaches. Crossleys [at Leyland] has a good reputation for renovating/repairing motorhomes. Have a look for a local commercial vehicle rally and attend, asking those with vehicles what they think of your idea. I doubt any of them will have a clue but if you are looking for a needle in a haystack, you have to go to the haystack. Machzone used to make A-classes until most retired. Some ex-staff may still be about. The firm now sells motorhomes as Glenns Motohomes in Bulwell, Nottingham.

 

Not sure how the DVLA will react to what you are planning to do but I doubt it will be straight forward. Again, the vintage commercial renovators sometimes have to overcome such difficulties.

 

I hope you continue to wonder rather than implement although buying a Fiat chassis cab, taking off the bits you don't want, adding the bits you'll need and overcoming all the other problems you will encounter may prove possible if you have deep pockets and the necessary determination/time to see it through.

 

Finger in the air, I reckon allow £60k [including the Fiat bit] based on the costings for commercial vintage vehicles I see, appreciate your motorhome will devalue quicker than the Venezuelan bolivar, allow 3 years - one of which your vehicle may be off the road, and recognise a very high risk you will not be satisfied with the final outcome unless you completely renovate the interior.

[Brian Kirby]

To all of the above I would just add that you'll need a large enough workshop in which to keep the vehicle while work progresses, ideally with a pit or lift for good access underneath, and a hoist (can't imagine how this could otherwise be done) plus, I suspect, access to a Fiat electronics station for initial set-up, and also an AlKo jig to align the chassis to the cowl.

 

I think you'd have to lift the whole body free of the chassis/cowl unit initially (a few interesting bits to untangle in the dashboard area!) and park it to one side while tackling the removal of the old cowl and attachment of the new from/to the AlKo chassis, adapt the front end of the body to fit the new cowl, and then winch the body onto the combined chassis/cowl.

 

If paying someone else to do it, I think it would probably end up costing more than buying a direct replacement new! If DIY, I think you'd spend so long at the task you'd probably send so long without a functional motorhome that the moment would have passed, and your only recourse then would be to sell it. Getting the resulting chimera past DVLA and DVSA would also be great fun!

 

Overall, I think either get the rust sorted, or source a newer van and trade the existing one! My apologies for the negative reaction. :-)

[Algernon]

Many thanks for the replies.

 

I like the ‘can do’ approach albeit with certain caveats! It’s the caveats I am looking for!!

 

With no intention to sell, the resale value is immaterial. So many great times and memories with this vehicle, will probably drive it off of Beachy Head if I ever have to go into a care home.

 

As previously stated the aim is to increase the longevity of the vehicle, I know I could weld it up and install a particulate filter and see it good for another five/ ten /fifteen years or so?

 

To weld the strut housing I would need to strip out dash board and remove lots of bits, If I am doing the off side then I probably should do the nearside and hopefully not set fire to the front end! This is what got me thinking about changing the cowl. As an ex engineer/ fitter I would be quite happy to do the work myself, but now lack a dry space and the lifting gear? Although I do like a project!!

 

To respond to some of the questions raised_

 

Would it be a Frankia, yes of course as the only part being changed is the fiat part.

 

DVLA – The way forward would be to register the new base vehicle as PHGV. Once the work is completed change the body type to motor caravan on the V5. The motorhome would have a new reg no, although this is immaterial.

 

The intention would be to use the existing Alko chassis, and therefore would not need to remove the habitation box or any of the interior.

 

The furniture, fixtures and fittings along with the GRP skin is in first class condition no leaks. Frankia were building motorhomes without wood in the framing long before others even thought it was a good idea.

 

Used most of the year the rusting is probably due to spending most of its time parked on beaches or on salt laden roads

 

Since I started this reply other posts have come in, so my response might not seem logical.

 

Interestingly, I would never sell on a vehicle to some unsuspecting custiomer, anyway the rust is flagged as an advisory on the MOT report so would be noticed.

 

I will keep doing the research and make a few phone calls before I make the decision. Who knows? Not all daft ideas are bad ideas, bag less vacuum cleaners come to mind. I did work with Dyson on a project once, long before he created the ball barrow. He had a can do attitude to everything!

 

Any further input would be appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Algernon

 

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s “possible” and “realistically practicable” and what Algenon is suggesting does not fall into the latter category.

 

Even if a Ducato Euro 6 cowl unit (as currently provided to a motorhome converter on which to build an A-class motorhome) were to replace Algernon’s 2002 Frankia’s existing cowl, there’s no guarantee that the result would be accepted by the relevant authorities as a vehicle complying with the Euro 6 emissions standard.

 

The bloodline of Euro 6 Ducatos goes back to the Euro 4 models introduced in mid-2006. Assuming that the engine compartment’s dimensions have remained unaltered (and I wouldn’t bet that’s so) it might be feasible to transfer a 2017 2.3litre Euro 6 motor (and all its essential bits and pieces) to a 2006 Euro 4 Ducato, but what effect would that have on the recipient vehicle’s Type Approval status and (as Brock and Brian have mentioned) what would the DVLA/VCA's response be when the vehicle’s owner asked for the vehicle to be recognised as Euro 6 compliant?

 

I’ve re-engined vehicles in my kit-car owning days and, even when it was believed that the replacement powerplant/transmission should fit, there were always problems. It’s one thing to renovate a vehicle (even something as large as a bus): it’s quite another matter to consider mating the cowl of a 2107 Ducato to the body and AL-KO chassis of a 2002 A-Class Frankia motorhome.

 

[Brock]

This thread reminds me of the Bedford OB bus that was converted to a motorhome with new underpinning.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/retro-1950s-bedford-bus-transformed-8551081

 

Maybe Algernon would be better keeping what he has and fettling it to bring it up to the standard he wants.

 

I'd love to know what happened to the old Bedford and whether Walter Bell started on another project.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Next steps, I suggest, are

1 Enquire of Fiat about supplying the required cowl only truncated chassis and motive power unit.

2 Ask Fiat about possible changes in the cowl profile, with particular regard to points of attachment for the coachbuilt body.

3 Speak to AlKo about possible changes to the chassis, and especially the cowl attachment points, that might prevent a 2017 X290 cowl mating to the existing chassis.

4 Confirm with AlKo what alignment jigs are required/available to ensure accurate mating of the chassis to the cowl.

5 Come back to tell us what they say. After all, we're just guessing, while they are the people qualified to give definitive answers. :-)

[Will86]

Kit Cars ... Kit Trucks ... Kit Gliders ... Kit Sailing craft ... Kit Aircraft ... (have been involved in one)

 

And of course Kit Motorhomes so why not start a trend. all that's needed is space and time. Nothing is impossible.

[Algernon]

As you probably realise I am at the feasibility study stage. In my experience with any project one should always start with the premise that a project is doable, cost should only be considered towards the end of the study.

 

So yes I am gathering information and Brian’s suggestions are on my feasibility list. Many experts (specialists) will have different opinions based on their levels of experience and approach and these will all go into the ‘pot’ I don’t underestimate the shortcomings, in fact the more issue that are flagged at this stage is a good thing, hence the post. I am not expecting a great deal of enthusiasm from manufacturers, after all what’s in it for them?

 

Anybody taking on a project of this kind, or even a campervan conversion, needs to do their homework BEFORE they start. I have a new MOT so I have twelve months before I need to make my final decision.

 

One thing I do need to check is the physical size of the engine bay, if the new one is larger than the old one then a modified GRP front may be required. Not impossible but something else to put in the mix!!

 

I did say I like (need) a project!!

 

Thanks

 

Algernon

 

 

[bounty hunter]

Not as daft a suggestion as some are saying

 

A long time ago Niesman Bischoff used to suggest this for a coachbuit van in there brochures. Their idea was that as the habitation body would outlast the mechanical part just unscrew from Alko Chassis, remove, refit new Fiat cab and engine complete and off you go.

Now whether it's possible on an A Class I'm not sure but good luck and keep us informed

John

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Mission Impossible. Fiat-AL-Ko- Frankia will not provide the data to a possible converter to get a new COC.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

The picture is a high- frame alko chassis and not typical as the most common is the low frame. In fact i have this chassis in high version on my motorhome.

[Tracker]

It's a very interesting idea and I suspect that it is theoretically possible?

 

You will of course need a lot of space, a lot of time, a lot of patience, and some hefty lifting gear and I suspect that the known issues before you start will be as nothing compared to the list of new issues that will appear as you progress, issues that nobody can tell you about because nobody else has done it!

 

And then there is the time that you are without your holiday home which may well be a lot longer than anyone can predict, it might even be forever if it all goes pear shaped?

 

Given the way various governments are now viewing all diesels with disgust can anyone be sure that today's state of the art Euro 6 diesels with all their energy sapping anti pollution gubbins will be looked upon with favour in say five years time?

 

As an experienced bodger and money saver from an earlier generation where cash was always tight, my inclination would probably be to deal with the welding and re-spraying on an 'as required' basis rather than shell out a fortune having the whole thing 'done up'?

 

Then when whatever state of government or Europe we are in makes it's mind up about diesels in general and oldies in particular you will be better placed.

 

I was always a 'can do' geezer and never one to be fazed by a big job but that was in the days before government regulations, restrictions and their inability to cope with anything that does not fit neatly into one of their pigeon holes and that aspect would trouble me far more than the engineering side.

[Will86]

I don't see any reason to ask Fiat or any manufacturer about sizes etc they are probably patented anyway.

Buy an engine and make it fit. Its something we did as youngsters with motorcycles. Are all modern electronics necessary to make an engine function ... perhaps not? They are surely just modern applications to sell as a package.

 

It will be classed as a Kit Motorhome I presume. Go and visit Kit Car makers and pose your idea to them, they've had many years in the Kit building business.This would be my first task. The more I delve into this the simpler it becomes. (One of my lives was car repairs and mods)

[colin]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-08-15 5:44 PM

 

Mission Impossible. Fiat-AL-Ko- Frankia will not provide the data to a possible converter to get a new COC.

 

In the UK we don't kowtow to pointless regulations, which is why so many from other EU countries come to the UK to buy 'specials'.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval

[Tracker]

I am no expert and my knowledge is years out of date but I seem to recall a mate telling me of the complications and safety rules of 'type approval' for kit cars and even more so for 'one off' vehicles and conversions being an absolute nightmare?

[globebuster]

So is this rust an MOT failure or an advisory?

 

I'm assuming you've seen real the extent of the rust, because often an advisory for corrosion is over-egged in my opinion.

 

You will find each tester will have a different opinion, that's been my experience with several classic cars that vary in age between the early 60's right up until the late 90's.

 

Obviously this 'van is precious to you - a transplant could very well end in tears, or at least unseen complications, which would defeat the whole object of the exercise.

Just find a good body shop, and seek an honest appraisal.

 

 

[colin]

as above, mating up a new cowl unit to a 15 yo van does seem pointless to me, the work and cost will be high, but saying that I do a lot of 'pointless' work for people.

Mating the parts together mechanically will probably be possible, although it may mean a new front body as well, I've not read above about brakes, i've no idea if the older alko will integrate with the newer brake system, so that may be another mod to fit newer rear brakes. and no doubt the list of problems will grow.