Buying a motorhome then taking it to a weighbridge later - don't make the mistake we did

[domf]

Back at the beginning of August my wife and I made a rather uninformed decision (with hindsight) to buy a 2016 Swift Bolero 744 without having fully researched all the issues. With hindsight things I missed were:

 

1) Impact of >3.5T on Speed limits in Europe (was aware of UK)

2) Impact of >3.5T on Tolls

3) Issues with lack of payload on many modern motorhomes

 

Having spent a bunch of time in the UK, as well as several weeks in Germany & Italy we finally took it to the weighbridge yesterday. In preparation, we fully loaded the 110L Freshwater tank (grey was maybe 20%), diesel was 2/3rds and two full 11KG gas cylinders as well as my wife, the dog and me.

 

We also loaded weight well in excess of everything we travelled with on the 3 week Germany/Italy trip and distributed as closely as we could to simulate this.

 

We then held our collective breath waiting for the results from the weighbridge results.

 

The good news was we were >300kg under our 4.25T limit with >300kg available on both the front and rear axels, despite 2 x 24KG ebikes hung off a 16kg bike carrier on the tow bar which is at the end of a long overhang from the rear wheels.

 

Put another way we were lucky, as with the knowledge we have now I would still buy the same van, though I do resent the €20c/km toll charge in Austria with a minimum prepay of €100 which I shall do my best to avoid in future!

 

The reason I am typing this is hoping that someone else new to motorhomes will see it and not make the same mistake we made - as they may not be as lucky as we were.

 

 

Lessons learned:

 

1) Payload matters! Both total and per axel. Do not buy a van you have not personally taken to a weighbridge and carefully researched this area.

 

2) Research the pros and cons of getting <3.5 T or > 3.5T. These not only include the points above but also requirements for medicals at age 70 and above (which we did know about!).

 

3) Almost every country seems to have different speed limits depending on whether you are over 3.5T or not! There is a great reference for this at https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/overseas-holidays/planning-your-route/european-speed-limits/. The Netherlands is a surprisingly large country when your motorway speed limit is 50MPH! We may or may not have had to temporarily become <3.5T not to miss our return Eurotunnel. Not a mistake I'm making again.

 

Hope this is useful to someone.

 

Dom

[Keithl]

domf - 2020-10-16 7:34 PM

...With hindsight things I missed were:

 

1) Impact of >3.5T on Speed limits in Europe (was aware of UK)...

 

 

Lessons learned:

 

3) Almost every country seems to have different speed limits depending on whether you are over 3.5T or not!...

You seem to imply that the UK lower speed limit threshold is 3.5 T as in Europe but this is actually incorrect.

 

If your MH has an UNLADEN weight over 3,050 kg (actually 3 IMPERIAL Tons) then speed limits on single and dual carriageway roads are 10 mph lower than the national speed limit.

 

See https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits and https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained for clarification.

 

Keith.

[domf]

 

Thanks Keith - my text probably does imply that but something I was aware of and did not express properly so thanks for calling out!

 

 

Dom

 

[crocs]

Welcome, Dom.

 

One of the best pieces of advice to prospective owners is to join this forum and read past posts avidly. Great points you make which regularly pop up here.

[Nicepix]

Could someone please explain how you would get a seller to allow you to load up his van with your possessions, water, fuel, gas, dog, wife, etc and take it to a weighbridge before you have paid for it?

 

I think the chances would be very slim indeed.

[Keithl]

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 6:29 PM

 

Could someone please explain how you would get a seller to allow you to load up his van with your possessions, water, fuel, gas, dog, wife, etc and take it to a weighbridge before you have paid for it?

 

I think the chances would be very slim indeed.

You would have to weigh it 'as is' then estimate the weight of everything you where going to add on board.

 

eg Water at 1 kg per litre, gas bottles, fuel if the tank is only partially full, food, clothes, bikes and/or rack, mains lead, etc, etc...

 

This would be fairly easy for an experienced MH'er but VERY difficult for a novice! Although there are guidelines available giving average weights per person for 'contents'.

 

Keith.

[rajohno]

we always travel with FW and grey water empty if possible, in your case that would be a saving of over 110kgs.

when we were looking at Mh's I was pretty shocked at some of the low allowances made for load especially those with 4 belts where allowance is 75kg for the driver but none for passengers so there would be another 225kg minimum away from your average 500kg load allowance which dosn't leave a lot for personnel possessions and camping equipment.

Thats the trouble with all the mod cons in modern Motorhomes, the penalty is size and ultimately, weight.

[Nicepix]

Keithl - 2020-10-17 8:06 PM

 

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 6:29 PM

 

Could someone please explain how you would get a seller to allow you to load up his van with your possessions, water, fuel, gas, dog, wife, etc and take it to a weighbridge before you have paid for it?

 

I think the chances would be very slim indeed.

You would have to weigh it 'as is' then estimate the weight of everything you where going to add on board.

 

eg Water at 1 kg per litre, gas bottles, fuel if the tank is only partially full, food, clothes, bikes and/or rack, mains lead, etc, etc...

 

This would be fairly easy for an experienced MH'er but VERY difficult for a novice! Although there are guidelines available giving average weights per person for 'contents'.

 

Keith.

 

Do you honestly think that in the case of a private sale the seller would allow that?

 

As for the calculations being 'fairly east for the experienced motorhomer'; I would wager that less than 1% would know the total weight of the things they put in their van. The OP's advice is not feasible. You could ask for a recent weight ticket or, in the case of some Controle-Technique places out here; look at the CT certificate. But to expect a seller to allow you to take the MH to a weighbridge before signing is very unlikely indeed.

[Brian Kirby]

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 8:47 PM

Keithl - 2020-10-17 8:06 PM

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 6:29 PM

Could someone please explain how you would get a seller to allow you to load up his van with your possessions, water, fuel, gas, dog, wife, etc and take it to a weighbridge before you have paid for it?

I think the chances would be very slim indeed.

You would have to weigh it 'as is' then estimate the weight of everything you where going to add on board.

eg Water at 1 kg per litre, gas bottles, fuel if the tank is only partially full, food, clothes, bikes and/or rack, mains lead, etc, etc...

This would be fairly easy for an experienced MH'er but VERY difficult for a novice! Although there are guidelines available giving average weights per person for 'contents'.

Keith.

Do you honestly think that in the case of a private sale the seller would allow that?

As for the calculations being 'fairly east for the experienced motorhomer'; I would wager that less than 1% would know the total weight of the things they put in their van. The OP's advice is not feasible. You could ask for a recent weight ticket or, in the case of some Controle-Technique places out here; look at the CT certificate. But to expect a seller to allow you to take the MH to a weighbridge before signing is very unlikely indeed.

When you bought your Burstner the technical catalogue will have stated the MIRO equivalent for each variant and option so that the actual weight of the van could be calculated +/- a stated margin - probably with only 20 litres of fresh water and one No 11kg aluminium German gas cylinder on board, with a driver at a nominal 75kg, plus the fuel tank 90% full. That would have enabled you, had you so chosen, to substitute the actual weights of two 13 kg steel gas cylinders, passengers, the actual driver, and a full fresh water tank and a full fuel fuel tank.

 

Any motorhome dealer, as a "professional" in that field, should know all of this, and be in a position to give a prospective buyer advice on whether what he is ordering is liable to be workable, and on how to make it so if not. It should not be the case that the buyer is kept in the dark when obviously lacking the necessary knowledge.

 

Caveat emptor is just not good enough. And yes, I am one of that awkward 1% who know the weight of everything I put in our vans - because having earlier owned two small, lightweight, caravans I learned (the hard way!) the necessity of doing so!

[Albertslad]

Thank you domf, you have provided a timely reminder!

Some things change very slowly

 

It is some time since I last addressed this issue, and over the last 12 months I’ve made a number of changes to our van; specifically:

 

Removed the following items:

Malaga water heater

Propex warm air heater

2 No 110Amphr batteries

80Litre watertank

 

Added the following items:

Truma 6 combined heater

1 No 110Amphr battery

40Litre watertank

Solar panel

 

I shall remove all “loose” items, I.e. items that would not be sold with the van

I shall then take the van to be weighed.

I will weigh all of the items I plan to take with us on our next trip.

 

We had approx 350kg payload.

Last time it was weighed, the total of the 4 wheel loads was 2994Kg.

I have notes somewhere; fresh water, diesel, driver etc, but I will update all of this in due course.

Then a spreadsheet for those items that we’ll take with us.

 

Having had our van built to our spec 10 years ago, we had no manufacturers spec sheet to refer to, and I am surprised that 10 years later the situation and potential for disappointment remains very much as it was then.

If I were buying from a dealer, or from an individual I would require a statement of current “weight as sold” as a minimum.

 

Regards to all

[Barryd999]

I have tried to get dealers to agree to going to a weighbridge as a condition of sale but apart from one they are just not interested. You would think they would have their own scales but as soon as you mention Payload they either dont want to know or dont have a clue. I think for me at least If I had a weighbridge ticket with me, the wife and the van in and the full weight and each axle weight I could pretty much do a rough calculation as to whether the van will be suitable enough with the main objective that it has enough payload to mount a rear scooter rack and our scooter but its getting that info in the first place. There is no way I would shell out £40k for a van only to find out its not up to the job.

 

With the current van I worked it all out based on the official payload data available and as it turned out (way back in 2008) I was about cock on but Im not sure I would take that risk now without a proper visit to a bridge. I have even said to dealers that I would shake on a deal with cash waiting subject to a satisfactory trip to the weighbridge nearby. Not interested. Shocking.

[Steve928]

Thus far I've not come across any resistance to making the test drive (I buy vans from stock as opposed to ordering them) include a visit to a weighbridge. Perhaps it depends on how far away from the dealer the weighbridge is.

I didn't proceed with one van as it clearly wasn't going to work (Bailey 760) 1750Kg on the front axle empty save for skinny me and a small salesman.

The second (Bailey 740) I set a limit that it just scraped under, despite being 80Kg heavier than brochure figures, so that purchase went ahead.

With the current Eura all that was needed was an email to them in Germany as every van is weighed at the end of the production and a weighbridge ticket stapled to the service book.

[PeteH]

Hi

 

This has been a ongoing and contentious issue for many years now. Potential owners, are attracted by the "toys" modern vans are equipped with, and blinded to the "weight" hazard of said "toys". Manufacturers (largely) build on Chassis which are (largely) capable of rating up to 3800Kg, in "Factory Gate" condition. They Don`t, because of the restriction to 3500Kg on the "B" licence, for most Drivers, So that is what they rate/sell them as. The result being that many if not most, are "Not fit for purpose", on this basis. And can in my view make them "rejectable" under Trading Law`s?.

 

It has been my view, for many years that the "motorhome" should have it`s own category. One which would make it exempt from the restriction (to 3500Kg) and drivable on the standard "B" licence up to a Mass of (say) 4000Kg?.

 

Having driven virtually everything in a 76year lifetime, From Oversize LGV`s to Mini bikes. It is my view that the safety of other road users would be totally unaffected by that change.

 

Pete

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2013 forum thread may be of interest

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/New-European-License-for-Motorhomes-up-to-4250kgs/30325/

 

If I remember correctly, due to a mis-translation of the EU regulations, Portugal actually did change its Category B driving licence rules so that a holder of a Portugese B licence could legally drive a vehicle with a gross weight not exceeding 4250kg, but this now seems to have been ’normalised’.

 

https://opuscamperportugal.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-driving-with-trailers-in-portugal/

 

[Nicepix]

Brian Kirby - 2020-10-18 1:36 PM

 

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 8:47 PM

Keithl - 2020-10-17 8:06 PM

Nicepix - 2020-10-17 6:29 PM

Could someone please explain how you would get a seller to allow you to load up his van with your possessions, water, fuel, gas, dog, wife, etc and take it to a weighbridge before you have paid for it?

I think the chances would be very slim indeed.

You would have to weigh it 'as is' then estimate the weight of everything you where going to add on board.

eg Water at 1 kg per litre, gas bottles, fuel if the tank is only partially full, food, clothes, bikes and/or rack, mains lead, etc, etc...

This would be fairly easy for an experienced MH'er but VERY difficult for a novice! Although there are guidelines available giving average weights per person for 'contents'.

Keith.

Do you honestly think that in the case of a private sale the seller would allow that?

As for the calculations being 'fairly east for the experienced motorhomer'; I would wager that less than 1% would know the total weight of the things they put in their van. The OP's advice is not feasible. You could ask for a recent weight ticket or, in the case of some Controle-Technique places out here; look at the CT certificate. But to expect a seller to allow you to take the MH to a weighbridge before signing is very unlikely indeed.

When you bought your Burstner the technical catalogue will have stated the MIRO equivalent for each variant and option so that the actual weight of the van could be calculated +/- a stated margin - probably with only 20 litres of fresh water and one No 11kg aluminium German gas cylinder on board, with a driver at a nominal 75kg, plus the fuel tank 90% full. That would have enabled you, had you so chosen, to substitute the actual weights of two 13 kg steel gas cylinders, passengers, the actual driver, and a full fresh water tank and a full fuel fuel tank.

 

Any motorhome dealer, as a "professional" in that field, should know all of this, and be in a position to give a prospective buyer advice on whether what he is ordering is liable to be workable, and on how to make it so if not. It should not be the case that the buyer is kept in the dark when obviously lacking the necessary knowledge.

 

Caveat emptor is just not good enough. And yes, I am one of that awkward 1% who know the weight of everything I put in our vans - because having earlier owned two small, lightweight, caravans I learned (the hard way!) the necessity of doing so!

 

Our motorhome was purchased second hand. However, the model when new had extras fitted at the factory; oven, powered cooker vent, solar panel; 2nd leisure battery, TV in cabinet with sat dish and an awning and so the weight specified on the Carte Gris covered everything except what was later added; basically a bike rack and the consumables; water, fuel, gas and of course passengers and luggage. There was a weight reading on the CT we got with the van, but that was naturally just a little higher than the Carte Gris weight as the bike rack and some fuel and water were aboard when it was tested.

 

I don't even know what I weigh and I dare n't ask my wife for her vital statistic. I reckon that we have less than 20g each of clothing based on what we used to weigh in at airports, the gas bottles are 2 x 13kg at most and the dog weighs around 9kg but as for the rest; chairs, table, BBQ and food I haven't a clue. But we had almost 400kg to play with so I am not unduly concerned.

 

But the thrust of this thread is that people should take basically somebody else's vehicle to a weighbridge before agreeing to buy it and that for second hand vehicles especially private sales in real life terms is nonsense.

[Keithl]

Nicepix - 2020-10-21 4:02 PM

But the thrust of this thread is that people should take basically somebody else's vehicle to a weighbridge before agreeing to buy it and that for second hand vehicles especially private sales in real life terms is nonsense.

All I will add to this debate is that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

 

Saying you did not know what your vehicle weight is will not get you off a vehicle overloaded ticket (if you are ever unfortunate enough to get pulled over and weighed).

 

Keith.

[Nicepix]

Keithl - 2020-10-21 5:11 PM

 

Nicepix - 2020-10-21 4:02 PM

But the thrust of this thread is that people should take basically somebody else's vehicle to a weighbridge before agreeing to buy it and that for second hand vehicles especially private sales in real life terms is nonsense.

All I will add to this debate is that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

 

Saying you did not know what your vehicle weight is will not get you off a vehicle overloaded ticket (if you are ever unfortunate enough to get pulled over and weighed).

 

Keith.

 

What I actually said is that we had a valid weight certificate when we bought the camping-car. And the allowance was such as not to be of concern.

 

The crux of the thread is being overlooked by the weight police. Asking a dealer for an unloaded weight ticket before signing for the vehicle is one thing. Implying that you could actually take a vehicle off someone's drive and go to a weighbridge before you decide to buy it is nonsense.

 

What you do after you have weighed the vehicle you have just bought is another matter altogether.

[BruceM]

I’m not sure why this is seen as such a major issue. I’ve always bought and sold my vehicles privately. If I were selling my motorhome and a serious buyer wanted weighbridge evidence I’d certainly not have an issue popping down to the weighbridge to get the certificate. Around here it would cost about £20 so hardly a lot of money if someone if spending £20-30 K on a vehicle. And besides, I’d much rather the buyer bought fully informed.

[arthur49]

BruceM - 2020-10-22 10:17 AM

 

I’m not sure why this is seen as such a major issue. I’ve always bought and sold my vehicles privately. If I were selling my motorhome and a serious buyer wanted weighbridge evidence I’d certainly not have an issue popping down to the weighbridge to get the certificate. Around here it would cost about £20 so hardly a lot of money if someone if spending £20-30 K on a vehicle. And besides, I’d much rather the buyer bought fully informed.

 

Yes. I totally agree ............ :-D :-D

[Brian Kirby]

Nicepix - 2020-10-21 4:02 PM.............................

 

I don't even know what I weigh and I dare n't ask my wife for her vital statistic. I reckon that we have less than 20g each of clothing based on what we used to weigh in at airports, the gas bottles are 2 x 13kg at most and the dog weighs around 9kg but as for the rest; chairs, table, BBQ and food I haven't a clue. But we had almost 400kg to play with so I am not unduly concerned.

 

But the thrust of this thread is that people should take basically somebody else's vehicle to a weighbridge before agreeing to buy it and that for second hand vehicles especially private sales in real life terms is nonsense.

Before getting a new van I have checked the technical catalogues which, for the brands we have bought (Respectively Burstner, Hobby, Hymer and Knaus), have consistently listed the chassis, engine, transmission, and conversion options with adds for weight in each case. So having arrived at my desired spec for the van, I can calculate a MIRO figure for that spec. I then deduct from that the estimated/given weight for water, fuel, driver, and gas, which for my own purposes I term the "unladen" weight. To this I add back the weight of a full tank of fuel.

 

When I get the van, I take it to a weighbridge with a full tank of fuel but otherwise empty apart from the supplied basic tools (jack, wheelbrace, etc.), and weigh it while standing clear of the weighbridge platform myself, once with the van central on the platform, and again with the rear wheels just off the platform. The weighbridge operator sets the weighbridge as for a delivery, which then deducts the second weight from the first and prints a ticket showing the "unladen" weight of the van, the front axle load and, by subtraction, the rear axle load. Once the van is fully loaded for a trip, I re-visit the weighbridge and repeat the above exercise to get the actual laden weight plus, as above, the laden front and rear axle loads. I then check the laden figures against a spreadsheet I have produced and check the result of my theoretical spreadsheet totals for actual laden weight plus front and rear axle loads. So far the results have coincided favourably. :-)

 

If it helps anyone, the differences between "unladen" (as defined above) and actual laden, for one 2005 Burstner T585, a 2007 Hobby Van, a 2013 Hymer Exsis-i 578 and a Knaus Box Star 600 Street are, respectively, Burstner 570kg, Hobby 650kg, Hymer 670kg, and Knaus 560kg. Water weighs 1kg per litre, diesel fuel 0.85kg per litre. A full 13kg steel gas cylinder weighs 28kg, a full 11 kg steel gas cylinder 24kg, and a full 6kg steel cylinder 15.5kg.

 

The above laden weights all include a full fresh water tank, empty waste and toilet cassette, driver and passenger at actual weights, the full fuel tank, and either 2 x 13kg steel cylinders or, in the case of the Knaus, 1 x 13kg steel gas cylinder and 1 x 6kg steel gas cylinder.

 

That is for two people, travelling spring or autumn, for up to 12 weeks. My conclusion is that when assessing payload, 700kg is a good starting point for two people for several weeks travel. Anything less requires care!