BruceM Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I’ve the 2.8JTD engine. Went to take the van for its weekly run today and I’m unable to start it. This engine normally fires up straight away. However we’re sub-zero here today and have been for a while. On switching on the ignition the preheater light comes on as normal – although for a long time and then eventually extinguishes. The engine turns over just fine. But it does not fire up. I’ve tried this a number of times without success. Naturally I’d like to track down the cause to avoid the issue in future sub zero temperatures. So my questions/thoughts are:- 1. Does Diesel still gel when cold these days? I filled up about a month ago so I’d have expected to have winter diesel. 2. Could water in the fuel filter be freezing and blocking fuel supply (seems unlikely)? Any other thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve hill Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I am sure there are many reasons, but I always go for the battery, the available ouput drops radically with cold and engines need a massive amount to start, are you fully sure it a fully charged good one, did it easily turn over repeatedly and heat the pre heaters? Its -3 here and the van starts instant but the battery is less than a year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 Hmmm . . . it appears to turn over reasonably well – but I think I’ll put the battery on charge and see if it makes a difference. If it does I’ll order a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Hi. Did you depress clutch to reduce drag? In the Alps in winter, on one occasion, I did not press clutch and engine wouldn't even turn over. With clutch depressed it started straight away. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 If it turns over well, then it's unlikely to be battery, but it wouldn't hurt to fully charge battery and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Duck Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 If the battery isn't as good as it might be the engine management system will identify this and look to shut down systems. In the case of modern diesels starting from cold, the biggest drain is the glow plugs so that's, usually, the first system that shuts down. Yes, the glow plug light will come on and then go off as usual but the glow plugs won't be energised. I had exactly this on my Skoda about this time two years ago. Using jump leads from our motorhome to the car solved the problem temporarily and it started instantly. A new battery solved it permanently (so far!). FD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 Many thanks all for the rapid input. Yes – I always depress the clutch as part of the start up procedure. Prior to putting the battery on charge I decided to demonstrate the issue to my other half. The glow plugs light came on as before for an extended period, went off, and then the van started first time! Just back now from my weekly run. So I’m none the wiser as to the possible cause of the original issue. The weather is starting to warm up a little over this week so a repeat test after a cold spell may have to wait a while. Meanwhile, if it wasn’t the battery (and it may still be related to that given some of the suggestions?), the only thing I can imagine is that the immobiliser erroneously kicked in although I have no evidence that that was specifically the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 My X2/50 doesn't have a glow plug light But I can hear the solenoid click after about 20 seconds then it usually starts first time Wheras if I don't wait for the glowplugs on cold mornings it never does Definitely a case of more haste less speed when starting. Battery is pretty good and will start the engine eventually - but when I connect the leisure batteries to it as well it starts noticeably faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bounty hunter Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Almost certainly your glow plugs are at fault. Wait till it's warmer and it will start as normal and then get glow plugs tested John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 In over 50 years of experience with diesel vehicles, I have only experienced diesel fuel waxing problems on two occasions. In both instances the ambient temperature was in the region of minus 10C. The Fiat (Iveco) 2.8JTD is a direct injection engine, and DOES NOT USE GLOW PLUGS in the conventional sense. Either a "flame starter", or a "heat flange" are used instead. With the flame starter, at temperatures below about 0C, fuel is injected into the inlet manifold, and ignited by a single glow plug. This system operates like a small flame thrower within the inlet manifold. The flow of fuel is controlled by a solenoid valve mounted on the manifold, and the glow plug is controlled by a relay mounted under the plastic cover at the rear of the engine bay. If as appears the system is not working, check the solenoid valve and glow plug supplies. Another possibility could be a solenoid valve that has stuck, due to long periods of remaining unused. The other applicable method of cold starting, the "heat flange", is used in colder climates, and is a high current 12v heating element fitted at entrance to the inlet manifold. For an explanation of the flame starter, see Motor Roam website. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Just for interest, the Ford 2.5 DI engine has the 'flame thrower' type of cold-start device and absolutely no glow plugs at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 spospe - 2021-01-02 3:05 PM Just for interest, the Ford 2.5 DI engine has the 'flame thrower' type of cold-start device and absolutely no glow plugs at all. Spospe, Please indulge my curiosity. How does it light the flame? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tringy Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Have you filled with diesel recently ? If not in the winter it has additives put in to it to stop jelling due to the cold weather, maybe this is the problem. Just a thought. Regards Tringy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niktam Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 If you fill up after mid November you should have bought winter diesel however you must make sure you use a "busy" station some of the smaller stations take some time to use all the summer diesel especially if they have large tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted January 3, 2021 Author Share Posted January 3, 2021 Picking up some of the points raised; as per my previous postings the van started perfectly thirty minutes later and also the diesel tank being filled recently (December) would contain winter diesel – and yes it’s a busy supermarket fuel station. I decided nevertheless to follow up on checking the battery. It sat at 12.94v this morning. The van started as normal, with the glow plugs light showing only momentarily. Mind you it’s a few degrees warmer here today. I’ve removed the battery. The battery incorporated sight gauge shows green. I’ve had it on my ‘intelligent’ battery charger which charged it for about 20 minutes then claimed that the battery was fully charged and switched to maintenance mode. The battery has been off the charger for a few hours now and is sitting at 12.94v . As you can see from the pics, its a Yuasa but lacks a date mark or model number. If the previous owner had it put in it would be about 6 years old. Having said that I’ve yet to identify the battery in Yuasa’s range. My expectation is that the battery is just fine. However I’ll check the voltage again tomorrow to see if there is any variance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted January 3, 2021 Author Share Posted January 3, 2021 One addendum: to save anyone having to guess the battery model. I’ve identified a very faint label on the side of the battery with the number 58827 printed on it. This appears to be the model number namely a Yuasa 58827 – although the model number appears to have been superseded by the YBX3017 which is 12v 90Ah 800A . Still no clue to its age though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 Alanb - 2021-01-02 3:34 PM spospe - 2021-01-02 3:05 PM Just for interest, the Ford 2.5 DI engine has the 'flame thrower' type of cold-start device and absolutely no glow plugs at all. Spospe, Please indulge my curiosity. How does it light the flame? Alan To quote from a post by spospe in a 2013 discussion on this forum The heater unit in the MK5 2.5DI is actually very easy to see and sort out; it is located on the right of the inlet manifold, just before the butterfly flap of the EGR system and can be recognised by both the wire for its heater and the fuel pipe feeding to it. The MK5 2.5DI engine has never been fitted with glow plugs. Both the MK6 and MK7 2.4 TDDI and TDCI engines have glow plugs, but these are mainly to reduce emissions when the engine is cold rather than to assist starting. This 2010 Ford Transit Forum thread refers and includes photos https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65401 and this 2012 quote from an anglo-french forum (where the Transit Mk 5 DI motor was being discussed) advised Many direct injection engines do have glow plugs which help for cold weather starting - but for some reason Ford didn't fit glow plugs to 99% of these engines and the other 1% are rarer than hens teeth. Surprising really when Ford knew about all the cold starting problems of the old Yorkie engine even with that horrendous diesel drip starting system - and 2.5DI engine was based on the old Yorkie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve hill Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 mmmm confused, you say the battery was at 12.94v first thing? This is not normal I think, if the battery had been left over night it would normally drop to 12.6-7v or less if it was loaded by an alarm etc. On engine charge it would look like 14.7v and on battery disconnected on the bench it would start say 13.5 then drop down to the float level for your battery over time. But anyway I am afraid even correct voltages can lead you astray as batteries often breakdown under the extreme load of starting the engine. I had one in Australia that passed serious load test at a shop and failed on the engine, I had to leave the battery at the shop as they would not believe me, to be tested further. However, after more of their excuses I asked them to retest in front of me and on the second test the battery failed as predicted, they gave me an instant refund and were very surprised. Your battery may be ok but if you find it is the original then I think its time to replace it to play safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 BruceM - 2021-01-03 4:14 PM One addendum: to save anyone having to guess the battery model. I’ve identified a very faint label on the side of the battery with the number 58827 printed on it. This appears to be the model number namely a Yuasa 58827 – although the model number appears to have been superseded by the YBX3017 which is 12v 90Ah 800A . Still no clue to its age though. According to Yuasa’s literature the code for when the battery was made is usually stamped on the battery’s top and has the format YY MM DD followed by a 2-character ‘Plant/Shift code. So 17 05 20 6B would indicate a battery made on the 20th of May 2017 with 6B as the Plant/Shift code. (It does need saying that it can be difficult to spot the code even if it’s there, as it may be covered by a fold-down carrying handle and/or be very faint.) As I understand the ‘Month” and ‘Year’ squares on your lowest photo, these would normally be marked appropriately when the battery was fitted to the vehicle. So - if the previous owner fitted the battery in (say) October 2014 - the 10 (month) and 4 (2014) squares should have been marked. (For what it’s worth, the 58827 battery was listed in Yuasa’s 2012 catalogue.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted January 3, 2021 Author Share Posted January 3, 2021 Thank you both – that’s useful input. I’ve given the battery a good clean and examined it with a bright torch but frustratingly I can see no sign of a date stamp. I guess it might be under the yellow label but I’m not planning to remove that. If the previous owner had replaced the starter battery when he acquired the van that would have been in 2013 so I guess 7/8 years on the battery may have a case of endoflifeitis I think a precautionary replacement may be appropriate. I’ve left the battery in our unheated scullery overnight and I’ll check the voltage in the morning if only for academic interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Alanb - 2021-01-02 3:34 PM spospe - 2021-01-02 3:05 PM Just for interest, the Ford 2.5 DI engine has the 'flame thrower' type of cold-start device and absolutely no glow plugs at all. Spospe, Please indulge my curiosity. How does it light the flame? Alan Sorry, a small correction. There are no glow plugs in the cylinders of the 2.4 DI engine, but there is a single Glow Pin type of arrangement in the inlet manifold (serving all four cylinders) and this ignites the fuel to heat the inlet manifold. Edit... Just noticed that Derek beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niktam Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Before the next lock down today my MH was showing 11.9v on the cab battery resting overnight with the solar connected but it was nearly dark anyway. Went back in daylight and started up first time a little slower on the turn over as expected. Gave the MH a 70 mins run out loop on the dual carriageway and after a 20 mins rest was down to 12.6 with a cardboard cover on the solar. Adjusted the solar to 30% hab and 70% cab battery (as was set on 50/50). So it will give charge additional to the cab battery as that's the one that loses out first. See how that goes but it was a cold day in the northerly wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJM Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 A friend of mine used to drive 20 miles to work and his ammeter showed the drive had just replaced the charge needed to start his car. As we are aware modern vehicles use small amounts to maintain radio memory, monitor systems, alarms etc. Measurements on my own vehicles indicate a flat vehicle battery if left standing for 3 weeks. Cold weather will only affect it more. If you don't need the alarm on etc it is worth disconnecting the battery and bringing it into the warm. Do not store it on a cold garage floor. Charge it up from time to time and reconnect as required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 BruceM Just a thought...does your van have an ignition key with a transponder? I wasn't aware that my old toyota van had such a thing...until one morning if just refused to fire,dispute spinning over like crazy. It was suggested that I should try the spare(original) key..and it started first pop. The above may not be relevant but I thought that it may be useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 My first motorhome (a 1996-built Ford Transit-based Herald) occasionally used to refuse to start, and this was invariably when I really wanted/needed it to start straightaway. I had two ‘coded’ ignition keys and - if the vehicle wouldn’t start with one key - I’d swap to the other key. Eventually the motor would suddenly burst into life, but I don’t think it was because it was because it ‘liked’ having its ignition key swapped. The Great God of Machines has decided that his creations’ purpose is to infuriate and mystify human beings - it’s in machines’ job description. Regarding the 12.94V voltage reading Bruce mentioned earlier (as Steve Hill has said) it’s most unlikely that an elderly Yuasa wet-acid battery would ‘settle’ at that voltage. When the 12.94V reading was taken, either the battery had not been allowed sufficient time to ‘rest’ after it had been receiving charge, or how the voltage reading was obtained is suspect (eg. an inaccurate voltmeter). I suppose it might be possible for the battery to hang on to a ’surface charge’ that disguises it true charge state, so placing a small load on it before taking the voltage reading at the battery’s terminals (say switching on the vehicle’s light for a few seconds) might be instructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.