EBay Motorhome Scams

[StuartO]

My immediate neighbour is looking for a first-ever motorhome and fell for an EBay scam yesterday, with features I hadn't come across before, so I thought I would pass them on.

 

She had been looking  on EBay fior a while and I had mentioned mobile.de to her too and she was looking at various dealer sites.  They were looking for an automatic and the budget was about £10-£12K.  The listing on EBAY was a VW based MH priced at £4K which should have fetched £8K, so thinking she was buying with a PayPal guarantee (seven days to get her money back when she saw it) she bought without seeing it.  She spoke to the seller who gave a convincing reason for the low price for a quick sale and was happy to complete the transaction via PayPal and deliver the vehicle within three days - but the money had to be paid before delivery.  There was some plausible reason why the MH could not be inspected before delivery.

 

So far so suspicious (at least to anyone who knew of such scams) but my neighbour was hooked and sent the money.  She thought she was OK and it was via PayPal because she was told (by the seller) that PayPal were handling the transaction and sent her (my neighbour) a scan of what was supposed to be her passport for ID and asked my neighbour to reciprocate.  This was supposed to be PayPal's requirement.  The money should then be sent via internet banking to the seller's account.

 

My neighbour did this on Friday and this morning spotted a warning of some sort on EBay about this scam.  The penny dropped and she rang her bank in panic.

 

Which? are currently running a campaign to get banks to be more helpful when bank transfers have been used in a scam and hitherto they haven't been helpful at all, even refusing to give contact details for the recipient bank account to aid detection and recovery, because of "client confidentiality".

 

But my neighbour was lucky, possibly because of the weekend.  Her bank's fraud department gave her the number of the recipient banks fraud department and they agreed to send the money bank to her before the recipient fraudster could get their hands on it.

 

Clearly my neighbour was duped and presumably the passport image she was sent was wasn't the seller's at all but the scan sent by another vicitim.

 

Not clear yet why the recipient bank could be so helpful in this case but they were, which is encouraging.

 

[Keithl]

Stuart,

 

I get regular emails from eBay for the search term 'Auto Trail' and most days there are at least one or two which are obviously scams. ie selling at a price which is too good to be true! The motto is "if it seems too good to be true it obviously is!!!".

 

I report most of the scams I find to eBay and the listings seem to be removed within 24 hours.

 

Buyer beware!

 

Keith.

 

Edit to add: A quick way to spot a scam is to look at the sellers 'other items'. If they are selling their 'Pride and joy' at a knock down price why do they then have possibly 4 or 5 other MH's, maybe a caravan and a luxury 4x4 all for sale at knock down prices? All the ones I have seen always seem to! Hmmmm!

[Will86]

The end of any month is a good time for fraudsters, when money exchanges are frequent and easily unchecked.

[Keithl]

Just found another one...

 

AUTO TRAIL EXCEL 600S SPORT 2010 4 BERTH LOW MILEAGE for £9,800.

 

A bargain!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162223300429?ul_noapp=true

 

But it will probably disappear soon.

 

And he has 8 cars and another camper for sale all at silly prices! Point made.

 

Keith.

 

And the original eBay ad was buy it now for £27,000

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Trail-EXCEL-600S-SPORT-2010-3-BERTH-LOW-MILEAGE-/172307638099?rmvSB=true&clk_rvr_id=1103267215884&nma=true&si=u8SvLmxUOWXVEeiJ5vKP1pKjQrQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

OK It actually sold for £24,200

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Trail-EXCEL-600S-SPORT-2010-4-BERTH-LOW-MILEAGE-/172329085378?nma=true&si=u8SvLmxUOWXVEeiJ5vKP1pKjQrQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[pagey]

hi i report several every day the giveaway is when they ask for a contact telephone number in the listing B-)

[StuartO]

It's easy to spot these attempted scams using motorhome sales when you know what to look for but my neighbour didn't have our previous exposure and was taken in.  She had asked me for advice about MHs a while earlier and I'm now kicking myself for not thinking to warn her.

 

I think she was very lucky to get this help from the fraudster's bank.  If this heralds new cooperation from banks it is very welcome.

 

[Bulletguy]

 

I'm surprised anyone would pay for a vehicle without seeing it first, irrespective of price.

[Noody]

Bulletguy - 2016-10-01 11:02 PM

 

 

I'm surprised anyone would pay for a vehicle without seeing it first, irrespective of price.

 

Some people are just so genuine and honest it doesn't occur to them tha things people do to each other. I'm known to friends and family for my cynicism, I blame my cynicism on the knocks I've taken over the years and whilst I have never been shafted at this level I'll put that down to being educated though not in an academic way.

 

 

[John52]

Noody - 2016-10-02 8:07 AM

Some people are just so genuine and honest it doesn't occur to them tha things people do to each other.

Well Said. Nice People. Thats why I don't like to see them derided as fools.

[StuartO]

John52 - 2016-10-02 8:36 AM

Noody - 2016-10-02 8:07 AMSome people are just so genuine and honest it doesn't occur to them tha things people do to each other.

Well Said. Nice People. Thats why I don't like to see them derided as fools.

Agreed, certainly in this case my neighbours are nice people who do a lot to help our community and other people and when this happened, her first comment was astonishment that anyone could do this sort of thing.

 

[Noody]

Such a shame and I'm fortunate enough to know and to have as friends a few people who would be vulnerable to this type of scam.

 

My partner of 20 years (second time around) is one of life's givers and on the face of it she could be vulnerable though fortunately, and sometimes unfortunately she has been educated via the IT security industry.

 

Nothing is perfect though, she reversed into a car, no owners where around so she left her details rather than what a lot of drivers might do, then the bloke who owned the damage car exacerbated his damage from a small dent to a new back end and respray.

 

That's when I had to step in.

[pagey]

just reported another 10 hope they are removed asap

[Bulletguy]

John52 - 2016-10-02 8:36 AM

 

Noody - 2016-10-02 8:07 AM

Some people are just so genuine and honest it doesn't occur to them tha things people do to each other.

Well Said. Nice People. Thats why I don't like to see them derided as fools.

 

It's not about being 'foolish' or a 'nice' person. Surely when buying a car/motorhome/camper is it not normal to at least go and look first to see if you actually like it? Seeing that it does actually exist is just one of the bonuses. Whilst there you may as well have a run out in it to see all works ok.

 

I assumed everyone did this.

[Noody]

Yes, of-course. It's very odd for most of us that anyone would spend a few thousand pounds on something they haven't seen but buying through e-bay and via PayPal is purported to be safe.

 

You'll need to help me about how safe it actually is.

 

Presumably these bogus vendors create bogus identities knowing that thier banker will not be helpful to an investigation in most cases. I know this to be true.

 

I regularly buy stuff from e-bay vendors in the hope I'm not going to be shafted, I have only seen a photo of the product, but it's only involving a few £s. The way e-bay works is mostly about your score though even then we all have to start creating a good score.

 

Since we started discussing this I realised it's all about the confidence a crook has that thier banker won't give thier details though that's not quite true, they will if enough pressure is on them but if the money has been spent the banks can't help getting it back. My bank no longer uses my postal address for any procedure so it could be fake, they use call-back to confirm outgoing payments but that could be a mobile phone with no physical address.

 

I think things will slowly change with internet security but not in my lifetime.

[Bulletguy]

Noody - 2016-10-03 7:18 AM

 

Yes, of-course. It's very odd for most of us that anyone would spend a few thousand pounds on something they haven't seen but buying through e-bay and via PayPal is purported to be safe.

 

You'll need to help me about how safe it actually is.

 

 

Ok the following is just my own view.

 

I've used ebay for 16 years (signed up Nov 1st 2000....i just checked!). I've bought and sold all sorts. My feedback figure is 659 with a 100% positive rating. But both the feedback figure and the percent rating means sod all really since eBay changed the rules favouring buyers over sellers. Only buyers can leave negative comments......sellers can't. In my opinion the feedback should be abandoned altogether because there are some plonkers on ebay. I sold a used barbeque and the buyer posted a negative on my site saying "item arrived but smelled of smoke". Idiot. *-)

 

The % rating is a bit bonkers and doesn't tell the full story. Make half a dozen transactions and you will have a 100% rating. But then there are traders shifting hundreds of items every week and their rating will be around 95% or even less. It doesn't prove they are bad sellers though.

 

I don't sell so much as i used to now as ebay got greedy over time and now not only take a percent cut from your final bid price, but even a percentage of whatever your postal costs have been. Thats just plain greed.

 

I got fed up with people not returning feedback so i posted this on my 'about me' page which explains how i now work my ebay account;

 

When i make a purchase i expect feedback once i made payment as thats my side of the "deal" done. I then post feedback to The Seller on receipt. Sellers who don't post feedback can't expect to receive. When i am The Seller i give feedback on payment.

 

PayPal is relatively secure and i've never had any issues with it but i know some people have. However when it comes to a vehicle of any kind, if i was selling i would post it on ebay as cash transaction only.....because the buyer would need to come and collect it anyway so you are better off keeping PayPal out of it. If it's involving a good few grand i'd give the buyer 7 days in which to arrange collection and payment and if they didn't follow that through, post them up as a non-paying bidder.

 

If buying a vehicle; i'd view before putting a bid on, then i'd collect, pay in full and expect everything signed over.

 

The old adage of "if it's too good to be true etc" is a good benchmark.

[Noody]

Thanks Mr Bullet, for me your post is useful and fills in gaps in my awareness.

 

Something just came up that may be usefull. A few years ago a young bloke on the south coast decided to make a living out of selling surfboards he didn't have, he sold them via e-bay though I'm not sure my memory serves me well enough to decide if PayPal were involved. He would advertise his boards fairly cheap with a photo of a board he had in his date-base. Buyers would pay for the board plus delivery but nothing turned up.

 

His banker wouldn't give details nor return money, he lived with his parents who may or may not have been embarresed though didn't help. The police would help, everyone knew who he was and where he lived so short of arriving for a showdown that would have called in the police who weren't interested in the the scam this bloke was running no-one could do anything until a friend of a friend working for Trades Description convinced this blokes banker to do do the right thing.

 

So what is happening ?

 

How can this scenario possibly exist ?

 

It scares me.

[pagey]

hi for those who are not really up on the scams see ebay item 232101577827 if you read the listing it states for sale due to upgrade but then goes on to say he is emigrating now if you click on see other items you will see a list of bogus vehicles for sale be lucky pagey

[Keithl]

pagey - 2016-10-03 5:36 PM

 

hi for those who are not really up on the scams see ebay item 232101577827 if you read the listing it states for sale due to upgrade but then goes on to say he is emigrating now if you click on see other items you will see a list of bogus vehicles for sale be lucky pagey

 

And here's the genuine advert for the 1999 Lunar RoadStar 620 at £15,000. eBay ad is half that, alarm bells?

 

http://motorhomes.autotrader.co.uk/used-motorhomes/lunar/roadstar/1999-lunar-roadstar-620-diesel-newcastle-upon-tyne-mfpa-2c929b9c573dad1f01574e19378a58ab/makemodel/make/lunar/model/roadstar/registrationyear/1998/1999

[MagHal]

Always inspect a vehicle, get an independent view if you can

 

Always check it is HP free

 

Always go to collect it from the vendor's premises

[Duncan MMM]

For anyone who needs a bit more advice regarding online fraud, it might be worth having a look at this article:

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/general/motorhomers-beware-online-fraud-rising

 

 

[StuartO]

That's a good article, thank you Duncan.

 

I recently learned a bit more about the role of banks in scams which is worth sharing.  If a bank becomes suspicious that a criminal transaction is or has taken place, they have legal duty to notify the authorities - AND THEN TO DO NOTHING unless instructed, which can frighten the hell out of the scam victim.  The bank is NOT ALLOWED to tell the victim what is going on or do anything (like grabbing the money back) which might prevent the crime agencies detecting and prosecuting the crime.  Which is why the victim can feel their interests are being neglected.

 

In the case of bank transfers of money, the sending bank has no legal liability to recover the money or compensate, so being left out in the cold can feel very threatening to the victim, even when they are actually in good prospect of getting it back, eventually, because the banks probably do want to help - but they can't tell you that.

 

This is because the victim might spoil the prospects of detecting and prosecuting the fraudster, by giving the game away - so they keep the victim in the dark.

 

Which? are currently mounting a campaign to make the banks more accountable in such fraud cases.

 

You should of course try to avoid being scammed but if you have sent money to someone who starts to look like a fraudster don't delay - tell your bank's fraud department straight away.  They will then tell the recipient bank and the legal authorities will also be notified.

 

Then you have to wait and keep your fingers crossed, whether you like it or not.

 

[malc d]

Duncan MMM - 2016-10-04 9:33 AM

 

For anyone who needs a bit more advice regarding online fraud, it might be worth having a look at this article:

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/general/motorhomers-beware-online-fraud-rising

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that Duncan - very useful info.

 

 

Might be an idea to make this a " sticky " posting, as it's not info that is freely available anywhere else, as far as I know.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bulletguy]

Noody - 2016-10-03 5:30 PM

 

Thanks Mr Bullet, for me your post is useful and fills in gaps in my awareness.

 

Something just came up that may be usefull. A few years ago a young bloke on the south coast decided to make a living out of selling surfboards he didn't have, he sold them via e-bay though I'm not sure my memory serves me well enough to decide if PayPal were involved. He would advertise his boards fairly cheap with a photo of a board he had in his date-base. Buyers would pay for the board plus delivery but nothing turned up.

 

His banker wouldn't give details nor return money, he lived with his parents who may or may not have been embarresed though didn't help. The police would help, everyone knew who he was and where he lived so short of arriving for a showdown that would have called in the police who weren't interested in the the scam this bloke was running no-one could do anything until a friend of a friend working for Trades Description convinced this blokes banker to do do the right thing.

 

So what is happening ?

 

How can this scenario possibly exist ?

 

It scares me.

 

Be assured.......ebay do take fraud seriously though admittedly it can sometimes prove frustrating to sort out with them. I've had my ebay account hacked twice and each time it was ebay who locked it. I had to contact them and go through security before i was given another password which they told me to reset to one of my choice. Actually ebay advise you change your password from time to time.

 

If there is ongoing serious fraud you can contact the police on http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/

 

They acted on a case with someone i helped out (on another forum) who had been scammed and last i heard the fraudster had been arrested and charged.

[Tall_Mike]

There are whole bunch of Scams, I would be very dubious of buying anything of such value as a M/H on Ebay. - unless it was simply an advert for a bona fide dealership where you could go and see the vehicle, check out references etc .

 

I know a friend who bought a nice shiny motorcycle only to discover the previous owner had taken out a large pay-day loan on the thing and the pay day company chased the new owner who had no way to repay.

 

Another set of scams are based around selling something you don't own, - I remember hearing of one fraudster taking potential buyers to view a motorhome on someone's drive - knowing the true owners where on holiday, they managed to persuade the would be purchasers to part with a massive deposit, and then never turned up at the collection point. I think these scams have a variety but are basically similar, possibly stolen or borrowed vans or misappropriated in some way.

 

Then there is out and out hacking- getting in-between the sellers and purchaser's and appropriating the funding in some manner.

 

There is no such thing as a "cheap" or bargain motorhome in these circumstance's, I think possibly the place to go might be an auction, after doing a shed load of research if that was the avenue I wanted to go down.

[Bulletguy]

Tall_Mike - 2016-10-04 3:53 PM

 

There is no such thing as a "cheap" or bargain motorhome in these circumstance's, I think possibly the place to go might be an auction, after doing a shed load of research if that was the avenue I wanted to go down.

 

I've bought a few cars at auction and each one turned out to be a good purchase. You do have to know what you are doing though and be fully aware of their t&c's regards payment etc, but i always enjoyed the 'buzz'! It's not a place for the faint hearted or indecisive though. A knowledge of the car type you are thinking of bidding on and current market value is essential.