Fiat comfort-matic gearbox.

[John Day]

Question for Brian Kirby really as I think you have a comfort-matic, or anybody with the above auto gearbox.

When in Cruise control (say a long Boring French Motorway) when you come to a long STEEP hill at about 55mph, as it slows does it automatically change down to 5th (or 4th) and STAY in Cruise control, or does it get slower and slower i.e. 45mph or 1500rpm and then kick out of CC as mine does. it won't change down on its own as my auto Fiesta does in cruise control.

 

I am only talking about when CC is engaged, if I'm in control of the throttle its fine.

 

Fiat don't seem to understand what Im talking about!!!

 

The vehicle is a Hymer 678 3.0 Litre

 

Thanks

[Brian Kirby]

Hi John. Yes, and no! :-)

 

Yes it hangs on to far too high a gear on hills while it labours and slows, but it will eventually change down on its own. It can be "nudged" to change down, but will at times change back up well before the set speed has been regained in the lower gear, and off one goes again! I haven't experienced it kicking out cruise as you describe.

 

In general, in Auto mode, whether using Cruise or not, it has proved very reluctant to downshift on hills, labouring on in too high a gear while losing speed, to the point at which it eventually changes down where, on really steep sections, it has lost so much speed it has to change down again.

 

The "up mode" does improve this on moderate hills, but when the going gets really steep the only remedy is to stink in manual - and think for it.

 

It sounds to me as though yours has a fault in the module controlling the gearbox. It seems cruise is kicking out to protect the engine from damage (or going into a stall), which the gearbox controller should have eliminated by downshifting. Be interested to hear what Nick (euroserve) thinks if he picks up on your query.

[John Day]

Thanks for replying Brian.

 

Yes it is protecting the Engine/gearbox, I just left it a couple of times to see what happen, and it does just drop out of CC.

 

if I engage CC in 5th it immediately changes to 6th no matter what the revs, but it will maintain 30mph in 3rd through a village!!

 

Very noticeable this year when I had a friend following and it starts to slow at each steep hill as your not aways aware straight away its slowing. i.e. from 60 to 55mph but extremely irritating for the person following.

 

Its fine in the UK as there are not that many hills on our motorways that the 3.0 litre engine can't cope with in 6th gear.

 

How the hell do I make Fiat customer services and the garage understand this? and yes Brain I do hope Nick of EUROSERVE can help.

 

My Fiesta flips up and down all the time.

[Don636]

I have Comfortmatic on my van and have never experienced your problem so I guess you have a fault.

 

There have been a lot of threads criticising this gearbox. Some of this criticism is justified to a certain extent but you need to take into account that this is a robotised manual box on a commercial vehicle and it is not as sophisticated as a torque converter box on a car. You need to work with the box to a certain extent to iron out it's idiosyncrasies. I personally don't have a problem with this as it is great at least 90% of the time and I value the auto facility too much as it makes the driving experience much easier.

 

The van will tend to slow down on long hills when on cruise but I guess this is down to the weight. I anticipate this and accelerate myself to help maintain the set speed before it slows too much and when the van levels off iIt simply resumes cruise control as before. If I am not on cruise I will change down a gear manually before it slows on a hill to avoid the problem Brian mentioned. I don't find this a problem at all and can't quite understand why there is so much fuss about this. I actually like working with the van in order to help it work to maximum efficiency. I suppose you could argue that the gearbox could be better and I would not disagree but it is what it is so take it or leave it.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

This MHFun discussion may be of interest

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/problem-with-fiat-comfort-matic-gearbox-and-cruise-control.128379/

 

I note that John Day’s Hymer has Fiat’s 3.0litre motor (as does peterc10’s vehicle referred to in the MHFun thread) whereas Brian’s Hymer has Fiat’s 2.3litre 150bhp powerplant. In the MHFun thread ‘Sheddy’ said that his Comfort-Matic gearbox (motor specification not mentioned) also dropped out of cruise rather than change down, but ‘Techno’ (3.0litre motor) said that his Comfort-Matic would change gear (downwards?) in Auto mode with cruise on.

 

When an automatic gearbox is in its highest ratio and cruise control is operating, if the motor cannot maintain the speed that the driver has chosen the gearbox SHOULD (one might think) downshift and increase the motor’s rpm like John’s Fiesta does.

 

Comfort-Matic is a ‘mongrel’ and - to function most effectively - requires a fair amount of driver intervention. The unlamented Sprintshift robitised-manual transmission fitted for a while to Mercedes Sprinter vehicles was similar (except worse!) requiring the driver to regularly select manual operation when the transmission’s logic stuttered.

 

Mercedes dropped Sprintshift, returning to a torque-converter type of automatic gearbox. Iveco has gone the same way with the Daily and the 8-speed Hi-Matic transmission. The SelectShift transmission that recently became available for Ford Transits has a torque-converter. If you drive a vehicle with a torque-converter type of automatic transmission, there’s every chance you will dislike driving a vehicle with a robotised-manual ‘box.

 

That’s not to say that drivers cannot come to terms with Comfort-Matic and appreciate its benefits (and maybe even enjoy overcoming its inherent limitations) but it’s a bit like Samuel Johnson saying "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

 

 

 

[Geeco]

My experience with the Comfort-matic is the same as Brian has described. The only time the cruise control has disconnected has been on outback roads in Queensland that have short sharp undulations as a result of wet season flood damage causing the Fiat to bounce, then it disconnects. Cheers,

[euroserv]

I am also familiar with these issues and while i don't have a comfort-matic any more, i never had it drop out of cruise so this must be a fault. If you have tried to explain the problem to a dealer and to Fiat customer relations without success; i don't know what else you can do. I only used CC when on long straight motorway runs and learned to manually shift when negotiating hills, although the box will still think it knows better than you and over-ride you then too! It has it's uses but for most drivers i think it is a bit frustrating. It does nothing to flatter the driving style.

[Keithl]

euroserv - 2017-08-24 11:17 AM

 

If you have tried to explain the problem to a dealer and to Fiat customer relations without success; i don't know what else you can do.

 

Why not try getting a passenger to video the dash while you are driving to show the speed falling and the CC dropping out before any gearchange occurs. Might be your only option to actually prove you have a problem.

 

Keith.

[Will86]

I'm known to have a blank mind regarding most things in life and adapt to any situation as it arises unless I have the means to change it.

 

I don't follow that anyone can have pre-conceived ideas on how a situation 'should be', a design team sets the parameters and the user adapts.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Don636 - 2017-08-23 10:01 PM.....................The van will tend to slow down on long hills when on cruise but I guess this is down to the weight. I anticipate this and accelerate myself to help maintain the set speed before it slows too much and when the van levels off iIt simply resumes cruise control as before. If I am not on cruise I will change down a gear manually before it slows on a hill to avoid the problem Brian mentioned. I don't find this a problem at all and can't quite understand why there is so much fuss about this........................

Well, I'll explain why I criticise it Don. My previous van was a 130PS, 3.5 tonne, 2007 Transit based Hobby, manual, with cruise control. When it hit a hill the throttle response from the cruise control was almost instantaneous, to the extent that I could at times, especially on mere rising ground, feel the extra urge before I had become aware of the incline. By comparison, the Fiat cruise has the reaction times of a gastropod! Why? If Ford can produce a responsive CC, why can't Fiat? Both are options at extra cost. One is good value, the other, by comparison, not. It is this sluggish cruise control that primarily results in the lost momentum.

 

Turning to the Comfortmatic itself, whether using cruise or not, this box exhibits an extreme reluctance to downshift under load. If one tries to use kickdown (say to overtake), there is an uncomfortable delay while it "thinks" before responding. If one "nudges the box into a lower gear, and does not immediately follow this by flooring the accelerator, it changes back up (usually just as one floors the accelerator!). Neither are helpful, or particularly safe, behaviours, at the start of an overtaking move. As stated above, on hills the van slows appreciably (under the influence of the sluggish cruise control) before the Comfortmatic responds. This confuses following traffic on dual carriageways, causing it to switch lanes, at times tempting following truck drivers to do likewise to overtake a vehicle that easily out-pulls them in the correct gear. If the hill is sufficiently steep, a nudge to a lower gear will hold, and the speed can be maintained. However, if the hill is not quite steep enough (I can't tell where the borderline between the two lies!), the Comfortmatic shortly changes back up and resumes slowing down and labouring in the higher gear. I could go on! Its greatest benefit is the sheer ease of performing smooth hill starts, on almost any gradient, using hill holder. Brilliant! Otherwise, at random points along the route, one has to select manual over auto and do the driving. What is the point!

 

It is like the little girl, who had the little curl, right in the middle of her forehead. When it is good, it is very, very, good, but when it is bad it is horrid! :-) On any given road, at any given time, one is never quite sure which girl has control of the gearbox. It is schizophrenic, and I'm not a psychiatrist! :-)

 

It seems to me only part developed: it has great potential, but for whatever reason its potential has not been fully realised. But my main reason for criticising it is the cost relative to the benefit. The gearbox and clutch are a constant (and are fine), so one is paying over £1,500 (at 2013 prices) extra for the sensors, electronics, and actuation servos. The servos work fine, so the faults lie between the sensors and the electronics. It seems to me poor value a quasi-automatic transmission that needs continually to be told what to do.

 

I can do the telling with a manual transmission at a saving of £1,500 with the only downside being the need to give the clutch pedal an occasional prod. For those who are unable to prod the clutch, it offers salvation, but how much better the drive could be if only Fiat would complete the development of what could be a truly transformative transmission. The contrast between the Fiat cruise and the Ford one persuades me that Ford have the better electronics engineers, and that Fiat need to up their game. Ultimately, I just resent being their Guinea-pig on a product they seem not to be improving.

 

It is like a dog. Why buy one, and then do the barking?

[Will86]

With best regards to those who dislike the Comformatic but a centuries old saying comes to mind. " a *** ******** ****** ****** his tools "

[Den]

When it changes down a gear, it is meant to stay in CC. Only when you manually change does it drop out of CC this is the way it's programmed. Yes you definitely have a fault.

[Will86]

But how can you say its a fault if its designed that way. (Presumably) ? Its different and the operator has to adjust.

 

[Will86]

Driving a modern Motorhome is like learning to fine-tune your advances to the demands of a beautiful lady. Today she portrays herself as slick and progressive with an enticing body to match her description

 

Gone are the days when every lady was treated the same with rough hands and demands. Today she expects to be treated gently, only then will it entice her to release her best performance;

 

Provided she is gently caressed and guided she will behave exactly as you would wish and release her hidden gems that few can discover.

 

 

[david lloyd]

Will86 - 2017-08-24 2:01 PM

 

But how can you say its a fault if its designed that way. (Presumably) ? Its different and the operator has to adjust.

 

I don't think it is designed that way. As others have said it is designed to change down as the speed (revs) drop without coming out of cruise control. Once the speed (revs) are high enough it should automatically shift back up and resume the speed set in the cruise control.

 

If it is not doing this then there is a fault.

 

My 2.3 150bhp with comfortmatic does just that. Albeit, again as others have said, there is a considerable time lag before the gearbox changes down and this can be overcome by either accelerating into the hill to maintain speed or manually changing down a gear before it gets too slow, either way, the cruise control should stay on and resume its set speed once the vehicke starts to level out again.

 

David

[Tracker]

Will86 - 2017-08-24 1:56 PM

 

With best regards to those who dislike the Comformatic but a centuries old saying comes to mind. " a *** ******** ****** ****** his tools "

 

That is an inappropriate comparison Will.

 

It's poor design, pure and simple.

 

Both our cars are CVT automatics and they over rev like fury when pushed hard, which the motoring media critcise constantly, but in normal use they are so incredibly smooth they make sensible driving a pleasure because there are no gear changes.

 

I've driven comfortmatic Ducato's and I don't like them as I too find them a hotch potch of confusion about what gear to be in on anything other than a long straight level road, and as for kick down, you need the patience of a saint whilst the gearbox decides whether to obey your command or not.

 

They have their uses and as long as you can live with the limitations of poor design and engineering of the gearbox and cruise control they do enable someone who struggles with a clutch to carry on Motorhoming.

 

I have no idea what they are like when a soft right footed touch is needed like on mud, wet grass or snow?

[david lloyd]

Tracker - 2017-08-24 4:10 PM

 

Will86 - 2017-08-24 1:56 PM

 

With best regards to those who dislike the Comformatic but a centuries old saying comes to mind. " a *** ******** ****** ****** his tools "

 

I have no idea what they are like when a soft right footed touch is needed like on mud, wet grass or snow?

 

My own experience has been exceptionally good. On a previous van conversion with the 3.0 litre motor we arrived at Grassington CC site one December in brilliant, sunny conditions. The temperature dropped rapidly and we awoke to an equally sunny morning - but about 6" of snow. It was a beautiful scene. Over the next four days it continued to snow until there was about 9" of lying snow on the day we were leaving. The pitch I had chosen I glad cleared daily around us but the roadways had been left and new arrivals has been telephoned to advise them not to travel. Getting onto the roadway was no problem but just 20metres ahead lay an incline before levelling out again.

 

Put it into manual, select 2nd gear and drive with low revs - straight up the incline covered in 9" of snow and along the remainder of the site roads without stopping.

 

Another example, in the same vehicke, was at a very wet Peterborough show one year. On Monday morning many people were awaiting their turn to be towed off the very wet, muddy fields. I put it in manual, selected reverse and drove with low revs out onto the site road.

 

In fact, I have been stuck in less testing conditions with a manual Ducato!

 

Personally, I feel that if anyone expects the comfortmatic to drive how they like to drive then they are likely to be disappointed. However, I am happy to adapt my driving to get the best out of the comfortmatic rather than try to make it drive as I normally do say, in the car. Works for me.

 

David

[Den]

Hi John

 

Your gearbox is faulty.

It should automatically change down. Yes they are slow in realizing this, but it should stay in CC.

You mention the FIAT garage do not understand you. We or most understand your problem, so it's not you giving them the wrong information.

Make sure the fiat garage is registered as a Fiat Professional, they should understand more about your problem.

I have somewhere the direct no in Italy for Fiat and I chat to a very helpful English lady.

If your problem is not sorted in the near future I'll send it via a PM.

DEN

[John Day]

Brian Kirby - 2017-08-24 12:10 PM

 

Don636 - 2017-08-23 10:01 PM.....................The van will tend to slow down on long hills when on cruise but I guess this is down to the weight. I anticipate this and accelerate myself to help maintain the set speed before it slows too much and when the van levels off iIt simply resumes cruise control as before. If I am not on cruise I will change down a gear manually before it slows on a hill to avoid the problem Brian mentioned. I don't find this a problem at all and can't quite understand why there is so much fuss about this........................

Well, I'll explain why I criticise it Don. My previous van was a 130PS, 3.5 tonne, 2007 Transit based Hobby, manual, with cruise control. When it hit a hill the throttle response from the cruise control was almost instantaneous, to the extent that I could at times, especially on mere rising ground, feel the extra urge before I had become aware of the incline. By comparison, the Fiat cruise has the reaction times of a gastropod! Why? If Ford can produce a responsive CC, why can't Fiat? Both are options at extra cost. One is good value, the other, by comparison, not. It is this sluggish cruise control that primarily results in the lost momentum.

 

Turning to the Comfortmatic itself, whether using cruise or not, this box exhibits an extreme reluctance to downshift under load. If one tries to use kickdown (say to overtake), there is an uncomfortable delay while it "thinks" before responding. If one "nudges the box into a lower gear, and does not immediately follow this by flooring the accelerator, it changes back up (usually just as one floors the accelerator!). Neither are helpful, or particularly safe, behaviours, at the start of an overtaking move. As stated above, on hills the van slows appreciably (under the influence of the sluggish cruise control) before the Comfortmatic responds. This confuses following traffic on dual carriageways, causing it to switch lanes, at times tempting following truck drivers to do likewise to overtake a vehicle that easily out-pulls them in the correct gear. If the hill is sufficiently steep, a nudge to a lower gear will hold, and the speed can be maintained. However, if the hill is not quite steep enough (I can't tell where the borderline between the two lies!), the Comfortmatic shortly changes back up and resumes slowing down and labouring in the higher gear. I could go on! Its greatest benefit is the sheer ease of performing smooth hill starts, on almost any gradient, using hill holder. Brilliant! Otherwise, at random points along the route, one has to select manual over auto and do the driving. What is the point!

 

It is like the little girl, who had the little curl, right in the middle of her forehead. When it is good, it is very, very, good, but when it is bad it is horrid! :-) On any given road, at any given time, one is never quite sure which girl has control of the gearbox. It is schizophrenic, and I'm not a psychiatrist! :-)

 

It seems to me only part developed: it has great potential, but for whatever reason its potential has not been fully realised. But my main reason for criticising it is the cost relative to the benefit. The gearbox and clutch are a constant (and are fine), so one is paying over £1,500 (at 2013 prices) extra for the sensors, electronics, and actuation servos. The servos work fine, so the faults lie between the sensors and the electronics. It seems to me poor value a quasi-automatic transmission that needs continually to be told what to do.

 

I can do the telling with a manual transmission at a saving of £1,500 with the only downside being the need to give the clutch pedal an occasional prod. For those who are unable to prod the clutch, it offers salvation, but how much better the drive could be if only Fiat would complete the development of what could be a truly transformative transmission. The contrast between the Fiat cruise and the Ford one persuades me that Ford have the better electronics engineers, and that Fiat need to up their game. Ultimately, I just resent being their Guinea-pig on a product they seem not to be improving.

 

It is like a dog. Why buy one, and then do the barking?

 

Absolutely spot on Brian, thanks

[John Day]

Thanks everybody for your help and sensible replies (or 99% of you)

I think the best next best course of action is take the tester out with me, that's if health and safety will allow at a large Fiat main dealer!!

 

John

[Muswell]

Brian Kirby - 2017-08-24 12:10 PM

 

The contrast between the Fiat cruise and the Ford one persuades me that Ford have the better electronics engineers, and that Fiat need to up their game.

 

The Ford Getrag gearbox, like the VW Borg Warner is dual clutch with gears 1, 3,5 and maybe 7 on one clutch and 2,4 and 6 on the other. The car senses what is going on and changes the non-driven side up or down as it predicts what is likely to come from the various inputs, and then when the shift from one clutch to the other happens it is virtually instantaneous and it can switch back again in a flash as road conditions change. I haven't driven the Ford but the VW is so good that I have only ever used the manual over-ride once or twice to see what it's like.

 

So it's not a fair comparison with the Fiat box which is cobbled together because it's not worth the cost of building a proper gearbox for a very limited market. I bet the Fiat engineers aren't thrilled with it either.

[Don636]

Totally agree with Brian's summation and it is a lot of money for something which is not perfect. For me, however, there is no driving enjoyment to be had from changing gear manually in a large van, such as I get from driving our manual MX 5 for instance. In fact, for me, changing manually in a Fiat Ducato using a clutch is just plain hard work and uncomfortable, which is why I went for the auto. The auto box gives a very smooth change almost all of the time, even when using the manual facility and it makes driving so much more relaxing. Stepping in now and then to help it along is easy as it does not involve operating a clutch and I have no problem with this. I accept it could be better but I can't do anything about it so I simply work with it without any hassle as I really want and like the auto facility regardless. I can understand someone not wanting to pay £1,500 for an auto that is not as good as it really should be but If Comfortmatic is all I can have then I will just have to cough up if I want an auto box. Personal choice I suppose.

[Derek Uzzell]

There were longish forum discussions about Comfort-Matic in 2013 and 2014

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/150hp-Fiat-Comfortmatic/33156/

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-comfortmatic/36250/

 

As far as I can make out, although the Ducato Owner Manuals and Supplements describe Comfort-Matic and cruise control, they do not specifically say what a driver should expect to happen when cruise-control is selected on a Ducato with Comfort-Matic.

 

When the Ducato X250 was introduced in mid-2006, Comfort-Matic was an option only for models having the 3.0litre motor. A torque-converter automatic transmission had been offered for preceding Ducato X244 vehicles with the 2.8litre “Power” motor (but only in left-hand drive) whereas Comfort-Matic was an automated-manual transmission.

 

I don’t know what would happen with my manual-transmission Ducato if I simulated John’s scenario by selecting 6th gear and cruise control at (say) 55mph prior to ascending a steep hill long enough so that the vehicle stood no chance of maintaining speed. Presumably, as speed and engine revs dropped way down, at some point cruise-control would disengage or the vehicle would stall.

 

It seems logical to assume that Comfort-Matic (being an ‘automated’ transmission) OUGHT to downshift when in Auto mode with cruise-control selected but engine revs have reduced dramatically. If all Comfort-Matic-equipped Ducatos downshifted in such circumstances there’s a fault with John Day’s; or if no Ducatos downshifted it’s just how Comfort-Matic operates. But the MHFun thread (see above) mentions two other Ducatos that exhibit exactly the same behaviour as John’s. There’s no follow-up to the MHFun thread to suggest that a fix is possible and it may be that the ‘electronics’ of the majority of Comfort-Matic-equipped Ducatos will cause downshifting, but there are exceptions.

 

This link is to Fiat Camper Assistance

 

https://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/services/assistance/fiat-camper-assistance

 

and I’ve contacted their call centre in the past and received useful advice.

 

My local Fiat Professional agent was prepared to ‘loan’ me a technician to sit in the passenger seat when I had decided this was the only way I might get confirmation whether or not a noise my Ducato made should be considered normal or peculiar.

 

The general view seems to be that John’s vehicle has a fault, but what about the MHFun examples? And, even if Comfort-Matic Ducatos generally ought to downshift, is the failure to do so recognised by Fiat as a fault (or just a ‘characteristic’ of some Ducatos) and is there a known solution that Fiat will authorise an agent to implement free of charge?

[Tracker]

Don636 - 2017-08-24 9:55 PM

 

Totally agree with Brian's summation and it is a lot of money for something which is not perfect. For me, however, there is no driving enjoyment to be had from changing gear manually in a large van, such as I get from driving our manual MX 5 for instance. In fact, for me, changing manually in a Fiat Ducato using a clutch is just plain hard work and uncomfortable, which is why I went for the auto. Personal choice I suppose.

 

Sorry Den but I can't agree with that.

I have owned a few and driven a lot of manual Ducatos/Boxers of each generation and covered many many thousands of miles from Motorways to the High Alpes from the Nordkapp to the Sahara without ever having any problems whatsoever.

Whilst the manual shift unsurprisingly is not as slick and joyful to use as in an MX5 it works perfectly well in all situations and I have never found it tiresome to use, just don't rush it!

However I do understand that if one needs or prefers an auto there is no other choice than the comfort-matic

Personal choice I suppose!

[euroserv]

A little back reading for you.

 

The Comfort-matic is a development of the 'Agile' gearbox fitted to Iveco Daily from about 2004. The earliest models were described as 'a bit excitable' and were changing down on the slightest of incline and consequently were revving too high for much of the time. There were software updates but this behaviour along with the fact that it was very unreliable electrically meant that it was quietly withdrawn in 2006 for a year or so but during that time, it's reputation was enough to see that few were sold. It was initially only fitted to 2.3 engines. The arrival of the first Euro 5 Daily vans in 2007 saw the re-introduction of the Agile; now available on 2.3 and 3.0 engines was much improved. The shifting was a lot more docile and seemed to better match the torque of the engines. The same software was used a few months earlier on the new Fiat X250 3.0 Comfort-matic, and was widely regarded as a successful adaptation of the technology.

 

I, personally think the software changes went too far and dumbed down the responses too much. I think that the software was optimised for RWD Daily vehicles and only really suited 3.0 Maxi Fiats because of their lower final drive ratios than the lighter chassis. I am not convinced that it has been optimised for 2.3 engines at all, whatever their axle ratios but i promise you that what we have now is a million miles better than the lurchy, disagreeable and tempramental early 'Agile' set up!