mikejkay Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Having trawled through the posts regarding the wing mirrors onX250 Ducatos I have two queries: 1. Has anybody replaced the long arm variety of wing mirror with the short arm version and are therefore able to comment on the subsequent use of the mirrors. 2. There seems to be a basic disagreement about the effectiveness of Mirrorguards but it would be useful to hear about their effectiveness from those who have fitted them. The feeling that I get from reading the posts on this subject is that the naysayers have not actually used them. Are there any other makes for these mirrors other than Mirrorguard? The cause of these questions is that the inevitable(?) has happened. On being "cut up" by an impatient car driver who overtook in the face of oncoming traffic I was forced to swerve to the left slightly and the N/S mirror struck the top of a post mounted right on the edge of the pavement. This has punched a hole in the body of the mirror and smashed the lower blind spot mirror. I can replace the mirror easily enough and I have recovered most of the fragments of the housing. I can stick these back and make good the remaining hole but the repair will not look pretty! Hence the interest in Mirrorguard. The downside of using mirror guards is that I have very little clearance between the substantial brick posts at the entrance to my driveway. This entrance is so tight that when I drive in and out I aim to have the O/S wheel about 25mm away fro the pillar. Because the is a considerable camber my O/S mirror clears the top of the pillar by about 5mm. If I do this I can be confident that the N/S will clear the other pillar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 There's a letter in MMM February 2013 (Page 17 - "Reflecting on Cost") recounting how a Mirror Guard successfully protected a Ducato's mirror-casing in a 'mirror-clashing' accident. I don't know if there are products other than "Mirror Guard" designed to protect Fiat wing mirrors, but there also seem to be 'styling' covers made in ABS plastic. GOOGLE-search on "fiat ducato wing mirror protectors". If your Chausson motorhome's bodywork is wide enough to NEED long-arm mirrors for effective rear-viewing (and I would expect this to be self-evident), then fitting shorter-arm mirrors will plainly compromise that effectiveness. I guess you could experiment by temporarily taping pieces of mirror on your present mirror-arms where the mirrors would be if shorter arms were used, but it's likely that, if Chausson has chosen to have long-arm mirrors, that length of arm will be needed to allow a driver to see behind adequately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I have fitted Mirror Guards and had a couple of hits with them (gate posts on farm entrances) one of which was a metal post which I am sure one was hard enough to damage the original mirror casing all it did was scuff the guard and I was able to polish it out. The moulding is 6mm thick which may be a problem for you. Another plus side is in white they make the mirrors stand out and you notice drivers coming towards you defiantly keep to their side of the road. If you dive down the road and make a point of looking at vans you be surprised how unnoticeable a black mirror is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 My Autotrail mirrors protrude way beyond the side of the coachbuilt body. The only advantage is that you can see more of the sides and possibly a wee bit behind the van, although whether that helps an experienced driver in real life is debatable? I don't know whether it's worth the trouble of having such large and obtrusive 'modern' mirrors but for many years I drove medium sized commercial 'Luton' type vehicles with mirrors that were just about wide enough to see the line of the side rubbing strakes and the bottom corner of the box body. These were perfectly adequate for judging gaps both forward and reverse with the advantage that you didn't clout them quite so often when in a hurry on the narrow lanes of Devon & Cornwall. Undoubtedly modern mirror are better but perhaps the one size fits all of the long arm type is a bit OTT for narrower coachbuilts? One thing is for sure, my perception is that I have had more mirror contact (although not damaged one yet - but I am trying!!) with this van than with any previous but that might have a s much to do with the wider body of the current Ducato as the wider mirrors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 If you did replace them with short arm ones the blind spot mirrors would probably we useless, on our long arm ones I have the blind spot mirrors adjusted fully out, just about usable in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-01-14 1:47 PM If you did replace them with short arm ones the blind spot mirrors would probably we useless, on our long arm ones I have the blind spot mirrors adjusted fully out, just about usable in that position. Possibly? But as the arms will be shorter the mirrors will have be facing more outwards than inwards which could well tend to improve the blind spot view? We never used to have convex or blind spot mirrors years ago but we all seemed to manage OK !! I'm not advocating shorter mirror arms - just voicing an alternative possibility! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Tracker - 2013-01-14 11:26 AM ...Undoubtedly modern mirror are better but perhaps the one size fits all of the long arm type is a bit OTT for narrower coachbuilts?... It will be evident from photos on this website http://www.hymer.com/cms/en/motorhomes.html that manufacturers of X250-based coachbuilt motorhomes are not compelled to fit long-arm mirrors on narrow models. Hymer's Tramp range (with a 2.35m body-width) has long-arm mirrors, whereas the Compact (body-width 2.10m) has not. Mikejkay's Flash S2 has a 2.30m body-width (which is about the norm for X250 coacbuilt motorhomes) and one might reasonably expect that width of body to significantly limit the rearwards view available if his S2's mirror-arms were shorter. There will be narrowish motorhomes (eg. the current Elddis Autoquest range) that have long-arm mirrors but might get away with shorter-arm ones, and others (eg. the Bailey Approach range) http://www.newbaileyapproach.co.uk/ where the body is so wide that the mirrors must stick out a long way from the cab to obtain any sort of useful rearwards view. I'm confident that, if shorter-arm mirrors (ie. the type fitted to panel-van conversions) were the norm for coachbuilt motorhomes, there would be a helluva lot more complaints from drivers regarding an inadequate rearwards view than there currently are from drivers of such vehicles regarding the potential vulnerability of long-arm mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-01-14 2:41 PM I'm confident that, if shorter-arm mirrors (ie. the type fitted to panel-van conversions) were the norm for coachbuilt motorhomes, there would be a helluva lot more complaints from drivers regarding an inadequate rearwards view than there currently are from drivers of such vehicles regarding the potential vulnerability of long-arm mirrors. You may well be right Derek so maybe their is a case for 'half length' mirror arms rather than the cheaper (for Fiat) 'one size fits all' as the mirror only needs to be a couple of inches wider than the body to get an acceptable view? Perhaps the OP could measure the overall protrusion of the mirrors on a panel van and mask off the 'excess' sticking out on his own mirrors - or fit temporary ones at the same point to get an idea of how it would work in the real world? In the 'old days' mirrors bolted on to a steel arm and you could adjust them in or out to suit the width of the van and as I recall most people opted for them to be as far in as was practical to get a decent view of the side of the van and blindspot. They were usually steel backed and broke very easily but were also very cheap as you could buy the mirror glass inserts for pennies each by the dozen and change one in a few seconds! The further out on the arm the less the view of the road and the greater the view of the van, the nearer to the van door the better the view of the road and the less you see of the van side and somewhere between the two extremes you got the best of both views. Simple, effective and cheap!! Progess eh - doncha just love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I don't know how other people use their vehicle mirrors, but I want the same type of rearwards view with a motohome as I get with an ordinary car's 'wing mirrors'. Essentially, that means that I want to be able to adjust the mirrors so that I can look along each side of the vehicle without the vehicle's bodywork intruding. If a motorhome's mirror prevents me from obtaining a rearwards view parallel to the vehicle's body (without the bodywork getting in the way) then, as far as I'm concerned, the mirror's 'arm' should be longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Tracker - 2013-01-14 2:12 PM lennyhb - 2013-01-14 1:47 PM If you did replace them with short arm ones the blind spot mirrors would probably we useless, on our long arm ones I have the blind spot mirrors adjusted fully out, just about usable in that position. Possibly? But as the arms will be shorter the mirrors will have be facing more outwards than inwards which could well tend to improve the blind spot view? We never used to have convex or blind spot mirrors years ago but we all seemed to manage OK !! I'm not advocating shorter mirror arms - just voicing an alternative possibility! On the Fiat the blind spot mirrors are electrically adjustable separate to the main mirror and do not have the same amount of movement as the main mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 In answer to Mike's original post I replaced my long-arm mirrors for medium-arm versions on my 2008 Autotrail Tracker and it was an unqualified success, albeit rather costly and time-consuming. Whilst it doesn't remove the need for care it does greatly help to remove the feeling of vulnerability I had with the originals. I did briefly toy with the idea of short-arm versions but couldn't be sure that they would give the required vision and given the cost (although very much cheaper) it was too much of a gamble. On later reflection it might have been worth trying to scource a smashed O/S short-arm mirror to see whether that might work. Although I have a Fiat base mine are actually from Peugeot. Delving into both Fiat and Peugeot options for mirrors is a minefield and even Nick Fisher (Euroserv) couldn't help so the only way was to find a motorhome with the right versions (ie electric, heated and correct width) and use the chassis number to order from Peugeot (on a non-return basis!!). Having got them I was lulled into a false sense of security because the nearside was quite a bit more expensive than the offside. I naively thought that this was because it had a radio aerial (which is in the nearside mirror on the Tracker) only to find it wasn't present and the difference was just some quirk of Peugeot pricing. Having already dismantled one broken mirror completely it was not too daunting, although quite time-consuming to swap the aerial into the new Peugeot mirror. All in all it was well worth it in the end and 18 months on I have almost forgotton the process but its not for the faint-hearted! All this came about because we had swapped our original Autotrail 630 LB for a slightly shorter and more importantly, narrower Tracker. However rather lazily Autotrail had just used the same base vehicle (with wide-arm mirrors) that they use across the range, despite building (at that time) a narrower body for the Tracker. So if anyone needs some lightly used electric and heated long-arm mirrors (without radio aerial) send me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 We have mirror guards fitted and they are absolutely brilliant. We have had two hard knocks and on each occasion suffered only minor scuffing which was easily polished out. As someone else has said they make the mirrors much more visible as well I was at Johns Cross not long ago having a new step fitted under warranty. I was talking to another chap in the waiting room and he had brought his motorhome in at short notice to have a damaged wing mirror replaced before setting off to the south of France the next day. When they came to tell him the job was done he thanked them and expressed surprise they had done the work so quickly. The service manager told him they have had plenty of practice. A week hardly ever goes by without them replacing one and replacing three in a week is not that unusual. They even keep them in stock! The darn things are very vulnerable and fragile. Get some mirror guards fitted. The bloke in the waiting room took the number down from an advert in MMM and was going home to order some. Incidentally I rate Johns Cross very highly. Reasonable prices, very good work and pleasant to deal with. I get so many enquiries about mirror guards on sites I have printed out some copies of their web site to give out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Mirror Guards if there was a thumbs up Icon, It would be here :-D Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 We fitted Mirrorguards on our 2011 Starfire and have had 2 'incidents' since and they have worked perfectly. The resulting marks on the guards are easily polished out (in fact I used toothpaste last time ,a mild abrasive, as we were away and the polish was at home. Well worth fitting. Our Starfire body is only just wider than the cab and I was thinking about short arm mirrors as it reduces overall width by around 2 to 3 inches which is very significant on North Devon roads where we live but I am slightly wary of doing this on a type approved vehicle and not sure that the insurance company would be happy at any reduction in rearward visibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 As the Chausson has a 2.3m wide body, as our Chausson Flash 04 had, I certainly would NOT replace the mirrors with shorter arm ones - the ones on ours were only just usable. :-S As for making sure oncoming drivers can see your mirrors more clearly, why not paint them white, or do what we have and put some fluorescent yellow stickers on them ... in our case we have dog paw ones! :D http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reflective-High-Visibility-Paw-Stickers/dp/B008G32K3S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Just a thought - If the Mirrorguards are white - won't they blend in with the predominently white motorhome & therefore make the Wing Mirrors LESS visible. ??????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejkay Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 The colour wouldn't have made any difference in the circumstances of my incident but I think that I will go for white guards. Pity you can't get fluorescent orange ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejkay Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Derek I'll see if I can surreptitiously borrow one of my wifes mirrors and carry out a few experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 With regards to the effectiveness of mirror gaurds, logic would suggest they offer some protection, but there are no real facts. I don't have them fitted and had an 'instant folded mirror' at 30mph with no ill effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 It occurs to me that there is proboly a C&U reg that covers this, I'm at wrong pute with no link to check, but it may well be that the innner edge of mirror has to be outside of outer edge of bodywork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Mel B - 2013-01-14 10:34 PM As the Chausson has a 2.3m wide body, as our Chausson Flash 04 had, I certainly would NOT replace the mirrors with shorter arm ones - the ones on ours were only just usable. :-S Don't forget that the base vehicle for your Flash 04 was a Transit Mk 7, while an X250 Ducato is the Flash S2 chassis with a wider cab than a Transit's. I don't know how many different mirror-arm lengths there are for a Mk 7 Transit, but I'm pretty sure a Flash 04 (and my Transit Mk 6-based Hobby) have the longest available and - as you rightly say - need that length of arm for an adequate rear view It seems from roger20's comments that an X250 can have (at least) three lengths of mirror-arm. It's reasonable to assume that Bailey Approach motorhomes http://www.newbaileyapproach.co.uk/ have the longest available and a Chausson S2 may have the same mirrors. http://www.highbridgecaravans.co.uk/newmotorhomedetails.php?ID=555 A Bailey Approach has a significantly narrower body than a Flash S2, so, if both have the longest arm mirrors, it might be OK to do as roger20 did and move down a size. I believe a 2008 Tracker had a body-width of 2.26m, which is only slightly narrower than an S2's 2.30m. As I suggested at the beginning of this thread, it shouldn't really be difficult to decide whether a mirror with a shorter arm will provide an acceptable rear view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 colin - 2013-01-15 9:51 AM It occurs to me that there is proboly a C&U reg that covers this, I'm at wrong pute with no link to check, but it may well be that the innner edge of mirror has to be outside of outer edge of bodywork. There are indeed regulations regarding vehicle rear-view mirrors (GOOGLE-search if you feel in the mood). For cars towing caravans, the Caravan Club advises that UK law demands that external mirrors should provide the driver with a clear view rearwards (down each side of the caravan) that is at least 4 metres wide at a distance of 20 metres measured from the driver's eye position. Pictorially (and roughly), that means a right-angled triangle with a 20m 'upright' running rearwards from the mirror along the caravan's side, with a 'base' 4 metres long at the far end. It seems reasonable to guess that requirements for a motorhome would be similar. As a simple rule of thumb I suggest the following test:- Stand behind the motorhome and look along its side towards the vehicle's front. A. If you can see the whole of the mirror and some of its 'arm', then the arm's length could be reduced without harming rearwards vision unduly. B. If you can see 90%-100% of the mirror's width, but none of the arm, then the length of the arm is about right. C. If less than 90% of the mirror's the width is visible, then a longer arm would usefully improve rearwards vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 On that basis Derek the arms on my Cheyenne's mirrors could each easily be 2" shorter which would not harm rear vision, would improve blind spot vision, would reduce the risk of damage and make it easier to thread through tight spots without the need to fold the mirrors (which kinda defeats the point of having 'em!) - and has been my perception all along! So it all come down to the wonders of Fiat design - yet again!! Then again Fiat and the dealers must be glad of the spare parts and fitting trade!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 But there is a Construction and Use regulation which gives a Maximum width for mirrors as follows... "Where the bottom edge of an exterior mirror is less than 2m above the road surface when the vehicle is laden, that mirror shall not project more than 20cm beyond the overall width of the vehicle or, if the vehicle is drawing a trailer which is wider than the drawing vehicle, more than 20cm beyond the overall width of the trailer" So it might be worth checking that your mirrors are not breaking the law by being too wide. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I have fitted a set of 'Mirrorguards' got the silver ones to match the bodywork, have applied reflective tape over the whole centre 'panel' of the guard. Which will certainly make them visible, especially at night to an oncoming vehicle. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HIGH-VISIBILITY-REFLECTIVE-TAPE-SOLAS-1-X1MTR-LONG-INSIDE-OUTSIDE-USE-/261153639447?pt=UK_Cycling_Clothing&hash=item3ccdf84c17 have yet to receive a 'donk' on the Mirror. but no doubt their effectiveness will soon be tested. Still think they are worth getting. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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